The big bubble: Indoeuropean Yamnayans

After reading him right here of course I have the intention to stop. Without any real scientific debate, discussing like as with a teenager high in hormones it's not worth to expend time so.
 
A. Papadimitriou said:
What make the Cimmerians Iranics? Your post doesn't even have an argument. Please, do not respond if you aren't not willing to use any.
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the Srubna culture is well known by any reliable scientists to be proto/pre-Cimmerian.
The economy was mixed agriculture and livestock breeding. The historical Cimmerians have been suggested as descended from this culture.
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Cimmerian language has been identified either as Iranic or a binding link of Iranic_Thracian. Though Iranic has more weight to it and the Thracian connection comes likely from the fact that several Thracian tribes are Scythian or Scythian like descend and therefore Thracians are close to Indo_Iranians altogether.

The Srubna culture is clearly connected to Andronovo, Sintashta, Kura Araxes and especially Yaz culture. Read through the net and studies.

Now the final prove is genetic. Srubna culture dna has been extracted. The samples from this proto-Cimmerian culture belonged predominantly to the Indo_Iranian R1a-z93 branch, which nowhere else beside Indo_Iranians and their genetic descends found.

A study on DNA variation among ancient Europeans found that, of the 6 samples extracted from Srubna culture sites for whom a Y-DNA hapogroup could be tested, all belonged to haplogroup R1a, and four of them to subclade R1a-Z93, which is common among modern-day Indo-Iranians.[2]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture



Cimmerian is now an obviously extinct Iranic branch and the only reason why there is any connection to Thracians is because A: they were neighbors B: Thracians were a tribal confederation almost half of them made up of Scythian related groups in fact the biggest group, the Getae are probably descend or related to the Iranic Massagetae (Big/Strong Getae) east of the Caspian. And C: Thracian on it self is likely the closest Indo_European branch to Indo_Iranian. If it wasn't extinct today.

Next time you dispute my words by claiming there is no argument behind it, make sure you are not disputing obvious facts.
 
the Mitanni spoke a Hurrite language

I only mentioned that the horse trainer used Indic terms
please read what I write

I'll do like Berun, I'll take e break
 
Alan said:
the Srubna culture is well known by any reliable scientists to be proto/pre-Cimmerian
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It isn't possible to identify the Cimmerians as the bearers of any specific archaeological culture in the region
Cimmerian language has been identified either as Iranic or a binding link of Iranic_Thracian. Though Iranic has more weight to it and the Thracian connection comes likely from the fact that several Thracian tribes are Scythian or Scythian like descend and therefore Thracians are close to Indo_Iranians altogether.
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Has been proposed either Thracian or Iranic.
Names from later Cimmerian Bosporus.
Spartacus,Rhoemetalces,Cotys,Perisades,Rascuporis are decisively not Iranic names or you might want to check the same names from the Thracian Balkans?
The Srubna culture is clearly connected to Andronovo, Sintashta, Kura Araxes and especially Yaz culture. Read through the net and studies.

Now the final prove is genetic. Srubna culture dna has been extracted. The samples from this proto-Cimmerian culture belonged predominantly to the Indo_Iranian R1a-z93 branch, which nowhere else beside Indo_Iranians and their genetic descends found.
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Cimmerians weren't identified with any culture.
Maybe the ancestors of at least some Indo-Iranians migrated from some of those cultures you mentioned,the "proposed" Cimmerian culture.It also depends what we understand under the term Cimmerian,we know that according to Herodotus Cimmerians migrated in Anatolia? but the name was yet applied for Cimmerian Bosporus(Bosporan kingdom) for example,we find pretty much Thracian names there.
Cimmerian is now an obviously extinct Iranic branch and the only reason why there is any connection to Thracians is because A: they were neighbors B: Thracians were a tribal confederation almost half of them made up of Scythian related groups in fact the biggest group, the Getae are probably descend or related to the Iranic Massagetae (Big/Strong Getae) east of the Caspian. And C: Thracian on it self is likely the closest Indo_European branch to Indo_Iranian. If it wasn't extinct today
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Even the Getae becomed Iranians? or Massagetae? even their space of settlement isn't properly found,speaking on the Massagetae,yet you know their "original" language.
Getae are decisively Thracians i think even the Massagetae too,but perhaps with more nomadic culture than their southern kin.
Next time you dispute my words by claiming there is no argument behind it, make sure you are not disputing obvious facts.
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You provided no facts.
Distribution of "Thraco-Cimmerian" finds according to Soviet archaeology.
Thraco-Cimmerian.png


Most of this places were "Iranic" speaking at one point of time.
 
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Angela said:
That's a comment which is inaccurate, imo. First of all, it wasn't thought that everything was invented in Mesopotamia; it was thought that everything was invented in the Middle East. You know, "Ex oriente lux". It's definitely true for agriculture and metallurgy. The wheel may have been invented in FB, or it may have been invented in the Middle East, or it may have been simultaneously developed in both cases. In my opinion, that's about all that can objectively be determined at this stage.

Second of all, significant developments indeed took place in the vicinity of the Tigris-Euphrates, including some forms of agriculture and metallurgy.

If you doubt any of the above use our search engine. I've provided citations ad nauseam.

As to the rest of the post, I agree. A chariot is indeed a rather light construction, with spoked wheels and barely room for two people. It had to be that way for them to attain the speed which made them apt for war. You can't fight from a lumbering "war cart" with solid wooden wheels. There's also no way on earth that people could live in a chariot.

This whole idea that chariots had anything to do with Corded Ware or other early Indo-European movements into Europe was pushed by internet people peddling a vastly over-simplified and incorrect narrative. The map which Coriolan provided makes it crystal clear.

@Goga,
Neither I nor anyone else has to prove a negative. Sorry, but that's not how it works. The person proposing a theory has to prove it; you haven't proved yours. All you have is your desire that this be the case.

As for me, so far as I can see at present everything points to an origin in Sintashta based on current evidence. If evidence comes to light placing the earliest chariot somewhere else then of course my opinion will change.
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I'm not sure, but weren't the Summerians known before it was even known that agriculture developped in SE Anatolia before?
Long time ago, when I went to high school, we didn't learn anything about Anatolia, or about the Natufians.
I hope they've adjusted the program by now.

And what about domesticated animals? Do we allready know? As haplo R2 has been identified as part of Iran neolithic I wouldn't be surprised if pre-domestication of goats happened in the Kupruk area in northern Afghanistan and that these people moved from there into the Zagros mountains.
Metallurgy we don't know either. It could be southern Iran, it could be Serbia or anywhere in between.

Before discoveries by Russian archeologists became known in the west, charriots were supposed to be invented in Mesopotamia.
Appearantly there are still people who don't want to believe that.
 
Alan said:
Cimmerian is now an obviously extinct Iranic branch and the only reason why there is any connection to Thracians is because A: they were neighbors B: Thracians were a tribal confederation almost half of them made up of Scythian related groups in fact the biggest group, the Getae are probably descend or related to the Iranic Massagetae (Big/Strong Getae) east of the Caspian. And C: Thracian on it self is likely the closest Indo_European branch to Indo_Iranian. If it wasn't extinct today.
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Please do not respond to any of my posts again. Saying that 'Cimmerian' is 'obviously' an extinct Iranic branch is pseudoscience. Saying that the 'Cimmerians' could have been Thracian or Iranian can be considered speculative science but it's irrelevant. Cimmerian prehistory especially is semi-mythical. Also, I have to note that you didn't use any arguments again.

Labelling R1a-Z93 'Indo-Iranian' is based on a series of presuppositions and I don't accept it.
 
berun said:
Goga, let me know the Iranic names of the Cassite kings... if you can.

For the pretended gods naned Annunaki... everybody knows they were not...
;)

Karaindash
Your chauvinism may get you mad if you are taking pride of fantasies.
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List kings of the Kassites with Iranian names: Kadashman , Kashtiliashu , Meli-Shipak , Karaindash etc. are all IRANIAN (Aryan) names. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassites

When the Kassites conquered Babylon they renamed it into ' Karduniaš ' . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karduniaš . Karduniaš is an Iranian names with an Iranian suffix and it meant 'land of the Kassites. You can compare it to Kurdi-stan. -stan is an Iranic name for land, Kurdistan means land of Kurds. ' Karduniaš ' was an Iranic name for the kingdom of the Kassites. Kardu-nias, land of Kardu/Kassites. It is known that horses were taken into Babylon by the Kassites. Like their relatives the Mitanni also the Kassites were known as horse trainers. Just GOOGLE it.

How do you know that Anunnaki didn't exist and were not Gods? Most probably Anunnaki were aliens, but ancient people didn't understand in the concept of aliens and that why they thought that Anunnaki were Gods. That's why I'm saying that Kurdistan is the land of GODS
 
Angela said:
@Goga,
Neither I nor anyone else has to prove a negative. Sorry, but that's not how it works. The person proposing a theory has to prove it; you haven't proved yours. All you have is your desire that this be the case.
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You don't get it. Let say I lie and do claim that I'm the son God, it is up to me to prove it that I'm a son of God. Other people don't have to disprove it.

If you claim something you have to prove it and come up with evidences. Nobody has to prove a negative, You must to prove you claims and come up with arguments that support your claims. Otherwise your claims are NOTHING.
 
Alan said:
Why are you even discussing with him, if you by now should exactly know how he ticks. I have stopped even reading his comments, sometimes I ask myself if he is doing this to embarrass the Kurds. He doesn't understand that those ancient people are not Kurds but that Kurds inherited elements of these ancient people. Alone the Medes were a confederation of several Iranic and Hurrian related tribes.
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It is you who spread mistakes and is embarrassing thee Kurds.


5 reasons why I'm a direct decedants of the Medes:

1) I'm from the same area as the Medes. Kurdistan was the land of the Medes. Kurdistan was populated by the ancient Medes (/+Parthians)
2) the Medes came into power during the Iron Age. My DNA is similar to the Iron Age Iranians of that region and my DNA is closest to other Iranians like the Persians. My DNA is different from the Hurrian (caucasian) DNA. I have much more 'Gedrosia' component. Like in the ancient times the ties between Persians and the Medes, there is even the same genetic link between brother nations modern Persians and Kurds.
3) Language. My native language is Kurmanji. Kurmanji is West Iranian. The same as the language of the Medes. The Medes were also WEST Iranian people and spoke a WEST Iranian dialect. My culture and way of life is still Iranian/Aryan.
4) Religion. As an Ezdi Kurd our religion is similar to the ancient Mithraism. The Medes were also the Sun worshippers. And our both religions are Iranic/Aryan.
5) There is no other ethnicity in the region that can claim the ancestry of the Medes. Kurds are the ONLY one who are Iranic who don't speak Semitic, Turkic or Hurrian (Caucasian) languages.


with other words: Kurds are descendants of the Medes.



I gave 5 reasons why Kurds are Medes. People should give me 5 reasons why Sintashta INVENTED spoke wheeled chariots. They can't. Only because they found the oldest one in that region is not really a strong argument.
 
bicicleur said:
I'm not sure, but weren't the Summerians known before it was even known that agriculture developped in SE Anatolia before?
Long time ago, when I went to high school, we didn't learn anything about Anatolia, or about the Natufians.
I hope they've adjusted the program by now.

And what about domesticated animals? Do we allready know? As haplo R2 has been identified as part of Iran neolithic I wouldn't be surprised if pre-domestication of goats happened in the Kupruk area in northern Afghanistan and that these people moved from there into the Zagros mountains.
Metallurgy we don't know either. It could be southern Iran, it could be Serbia or anywhere in between.

Before discoveries by Russian archeologists became known in the west, charriots were supposed to be invented in Mesopotamia.
Appearantly there are still people who don't want to believe that.
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I don't know what they taught you in high school, or even in university. What I was taught in both places is that farming and other hallmarks of the Neolithic came from the general area called the fertile crescent. It's also what my children were taught in middle school and high school. This map shows the earliest sites:
1236743fig1.jpg




Animal domestication was being experimented with in the Zagros mountains, but actual animal domestication took place in various areas and times, but always in the general area of the Fertile Crescent:
neolithicZedersm.jpg


I don't know the dates for this hypothetical early goat domestication in Afghanistan, the direction of the flow of the technology, or whether they were actually domesticating the goats through selective breeding or just herding wild goats. As I told Goga, we go based on the evidence we have, and not speculations that might accord better with our prejudices.

As for metallurgy, I find your position strange, given your posts in this dedicated thread:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30625-David-Anthony-on-Metallurgy?highlight=Metallurgy

You might also want to take a look at this:
https://www.academia.edu/371376/Development_of_metallurgy_in_Eurasia

Of course, there's also the paper by David Anthony to which I linked in the above cited Eupedia thread.

The pendulum definitely seems to have swung back to Anatolia, which makes sense, as that is where the first high temperature ceramic kilns are found. Given the continued ties with their cousins in "Old Europe", I think some of these early dates for Serbia make a lot of sense.

Generally, as to metallurgy, some advancements took place in "Old Europe", but most breakthroughs took place in the Near East, and yes, the greater Caucasus area, in which some of these breakthroughs took place, is part of the Near East, and no, you can't suddenly make the Caucasus Europe like Eurogenes because it fits his prejudices better.

A war wagon with solid wheels is attested very early in the Middle East. Do you deny the evidence? The first spoke-wheeled chariot is attested in Sintashta and seems to radiate out from there. That's what the evidence shows despite Goga's xenophobic attempt to spin it otherwise. The two things should be able to be accommodated in a reasoning person's brain. No invention emerges sui generis from someone's head like Athena from the head of Zeus. Inventions build on prior knowledge and ideas. Sometimes the adjustment or advancement is minor, and sometimes it has larger implications. In the case of the spoke wheeled, lighter, and differently guided chariot it was a big leap forward. I couldn't care less personally where it was invented, but so far the evidence points to it being a Sintashta invention.

@Goga,
You asked me to prove that the spoke wheeled chariot couldn't have been invented elsewhere. Have you forgotten that? That's proving a negative.

The only evidence we're ever going to have of where and when something was invented in pre-history is where we first find it and the technological substratum to create it. How else?

When we see copper and gold objects on the steppe with metal traced to the Balkans, and no evidence of kilns or forges able to produce it independently, we deduce that it was an imported luxury good and not the product of the culture itself. In the case of the spoke-wheeled chariot, the people of Sintashta had the technology, and we find the carbon dated remains. How much more do you need?

Don't expect any further reply on this subject until you introduce some objectivity into your remarks.
 
@Goga, just stop trollling, or just give up the hard drug that you take... how in thr world you say that such and such names are Iranic without any etymo, and then you link to Kassites in a wiki page which moreover copies Encyclopaedia Iranica:

As is clear from this material, the Kassites spoke a language without a genetic relationship to any other known tongue
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And thereafter you are capable to defend the reality of the Annunaki even if being ETs. Wow. For better you need to give up drugs.
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by bicicleur


And what about domesticated animals? Do we allready know? As haplo R2 has been identified as part of Iran neolithic I wouldn't be surprised if pre-domestication of goats happened in the Kupruk area in northern Afghanistan and that these people moved from there into the Zagros mountains.



Angela said:
Animal domestication was being experimented with in the Zagros mountains, but actual animal domestication took place in various areas and times, but always in the general area of the Fertile Crescent:
neolithicZedersm.jpg


I don't know the dates for this hypothetical early goat domestication in Afghanistan, the direction of the flow of the technology, or whether they were actually domesticating the goats through selective breeding or just herding wild goats. As I told Goga, we go based on the evidence we have, and not speculations that might accord better with our prejudices.
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Indeed, specific microliths without any precursor elsewhere were made in the northern epi-paleolithic Afghanistan.
Their primary prey were gazelle and wild sheep.
These microliths didn't exist in the mesolithic Zarzian culture in the Zagors Mts, but they appeared in the early Zagros neolithic.

https://www.academia.edu/5738814/Paleolithic_Afghanistan

That is exactly where first goats and sheep were domesticated, probably by 'taking control of local populations of wild goats' 'as part of a more broad-based, culturally connected set of economic strategies'.

http://anthropology.si.edu/archaeobio/images/zeder_ca_2011.pdf

I don't find the link to this one, but I've read these strategies may well be selective hunting of only adult goat males and protecting the females as decoy to attract ever fresh males from further away. Probably the flock with female goats and their youngsters were even protected by the hunters from other predators like wolves, which in the long end made the flock dependant on the hunters.

If you read the paper about Iran neolithic DNA, you'll notice goats were very important to them and there was a lot of haplo R2 which I always suspected to have spent LGM in northern Afghanistan as 24 ka Mal'ta was R*.

As I stated above, I'm not sure, I have no proof, but it is not merely speculations based on prejudices.
First domestication may have been initiated by hunters from northern Afghanistan coming to the Zagros Mountains.
As you may suspect when you read the first link in this post, little investigation has been done yet as to what happened in northern epi-paleolithic Afghanistan and it doesn't look like to be happening soon either.

There is the story of the drunk person who couldn't enter his home because he had lost his keys.
There was only one lamppost in the street where he lived and he kept looking under the lamppost, because it 'was the only place where the light was'.
That is the reason why in the past so many inventions were attributed to Mesopotamia, the wheel and the war charriot included.

I have another example, you'll say it is speculation.
Natufians were E1b1-M35, which is an African tribe (all E except E1b1-M35 is African) .
TMRCA for E1b1-M35 is 24.1 ka
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M35/
first cereals collected were found in Ohalon 23 ka, approximately the same time
coincidence?
who says E1b1-M35 wasn't collecting cereals in Africa, berfore arrival in the Levant?
during LGM the whole of North Africa had become a desert, that is why E1b1-M35 came to the Levant
the Nile valley is filled up with tens of meters of post-LGM sediments due to erosion of the Ethiopian highlands during LGM
if E1b1-M35 were collecting cereals in the Nile Valley or delta prior to LGM, nobody will ever find traces of that
I'm not telling they did, but there is a very good possibility
 
bicicleur said:
orange are the Hittites after the fall of the Mitanni, Anatolian indeed
green are the Assyrians, Semitic, not Iranic
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assyrian was a dialect of Akkadian which was an east-semitic but which was influenced by the non-Semitic Sumerian language and adopted cuneiform writing.

East Semitic languages can only be derived from careful study of written texts and comparison with the reconstructed Proto-Semitic.

The majority of the green was non-semitic originating from the non-semitic sumerian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language
 
berun said:
@Goga, just stop trollling, or just give up the hard drug that you take... how in thr world you say that such and such names are Iranic without any etymo, and then you link to Kassites in a wiki page which moreover copies Encyclopaedia Iranica:



And thereafter you are capable to defend the reality of the Annunaki even if being ETs. Wow. For better you need to give up drugs.
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You are clearly NOT familiar with the Iranic/Aryan language.

'-ashman' , '-dash' , 'ship-' are clearly Iranic/Aryan components in those names.


The names of Kassites GODS are very Iranic and are similr to other Indo-European GODS


" Kassite Gods

Many Kassite Gods have names in the Indo-European languages. Some names can be closely identified with the names of Gods in Sanskrit, notably Kassite Suriash (Sanskrit Surya); Maruttash (Sanskrit, the Maruts); and possibly Shimalia (the Himalaya Mountains in India). The Kassite storm god Buriash (Uburiash, or Burariash) has been identified with the Greek God Boreas, the God of the North Wind. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica there are some 30 names of Gods known, but so far, I have been able to find only about 24 of them from various sources. Most of these words occur in Mesopotamian texts of the 14th and 13th centuries BCE.


Bugash, possibly the name of a god, it is also used as a title.
Buriash, Ubriash, or Burariash, a storm god, (= Greek Boreas)
Duniash, a deity
Gidar, corresponding to Babylonian Adar
Hala, a Goddess, wife of Adar/Nusku, see Shala
Harbe, lord of the pantheon, symbolized by a bird, corresponding to Bel, Enlil or Anu
Hardash, possibly the name of a god
Hudha, corresponding to a Babylonian “Air-God”
Indash, possibly corresponding to Sanskrit Indra
Kamulla, corresponding to Babylonian Ea
Kashshu, (Kassu) a god, eponymous ancestor of the Kassite kings
Maruttash, or Muruttash, (possibly corresponding to the Vedic Maruts, a plural form)
Miriash, a Goddess (of the earth?), probably the same as the next one
Mirizir, a Goddess, corresponding to Belet, the Babylonian Goddess Beltis, i.e. Ishtar = the planet Venus; symbolized with the 8 pointed star
Nanai, or Nanna, possibly a Babylonian name, the Goddess Ishtar (Venus star) as a huntress, appearing on kudurrus as a female on a throne.
Shah, a sun god, corresponding to Babylonian Shamash, and possibly to Sanskrit Sahi.
Shala, a Goddess, symbolized by a barley stalk, also called Hala
Shihu, one of the names of Marduk
Shimalia, Goddess of the mountains, a form of the name Himalaya, Semele, see Shumalia
Shipak, a moon God
Shugab, God of the underworld, corresponding to Babylonian Nêrgal
Shugurra, corresponding to Babylonian Marduk
Shumalia, Goddess symbolized by a bird on perch, one of two deities associated with the investiture of kings
Shuqamuna, a God symbolized by a bird on a perch, one of two associated with the investiture of kings
Shuriash, corresponding to Babylonian Shamash, and possibly to Vedic Surya, also a sun god, but this might be the star Sirius, which has an arrow as a symbol
Turgu, a deity "

http://piereligion.org/kassite.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassite_deities



Kassites were similar to the Mitanni, like the Medes were similar to the Persians. Kassites/Mitanni gave birth to West Iranian races like the Medes.
 
Chariot_spread.png
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Yes, things change. Just an opportune digression: a bit more than 20 years ago, people still thought that chariot warfare was pioneered in eastern Anatolia, and not before the middle of the seventeenth century B.C. See:
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=fcVIcaJxgdUC
From this same book: "Let us now look at the chronological question in detail. Surveys of this kind become obsolete as new documents are discovered, and it is inevitable that the conclusions reached here will sooner or later need some revision."

 
@Milan

Cimmerian culture has been connected with the Catacomb and their successors the Srubna culture by many reliable archeologists/linguists. That is simply a fact. You can claim that it is still a little disputed but you can't disregard it like their is no ground to it.

Cimmerian language itself must have been at least partly if not fully Iranic that is also what most scientists say so how can you claim that only "few Iranic tribes were among them". To me and many scientists it is clear that this people were predominantly Iranic but had possibly connections to the Thracians too.

Only a few personal names in the Cimmerian language have survived in Assyrian inscriptions:

  • Te-ush-pa-a; according to the Hungarian linguist János Harmatta, it goes back to Old Iranian Tavis-paya "swelling with strength".[4] Mentioned in the annals of Esarhaddon, has been compared to the Hurrian war deity Teshub;[citation needed] others interpret it as Iranian, comparing the Achaemenid name Teispes (Herodotus 7.11.2).
  • Dug-dam-mei (Dugdammê) king of the Ummân-Manda (nomads) appears in a prayer of Ashurbanipal to Marduk, on a fragment at the British Museum. According to professor Harmatta, it goes back to Old Iranian Duγda-maya "giving happiness".[4] Other spellings include Dugdammi, and Tugdammê. Edwin M. Yamauchi also interprets the name as Iranian, citing Ossetic Tux-domæg "Ruling with Strength."[21] The name appears corrupted to Lygdamis in Strabo 1.3.21.
  • Sandaksatru, son of Dugdamme. This is an Iranian reading of the name, and Manfred Mayrhofer (1981) points out that the name may also be read as Sandakurru. Mayrhofer likewise rejects the interpretation of "with pure regency" as a mixing of Iranian and Indo-Aryan. Ivancik suggests an association with the Anatolian deity Sanda. According to Professor J. Harmatta, it goes back to Old Iranian Sanda-Kuru "Splendid Son".[4] Kur/Kuru is still used as "son" in the Kurdish languages, and in modified form in Persian as korr, for the male offspring of horses.
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There are only few personal names and all of them have clearly been identified as Iranic. Coincidence?

And about the Massagetae, really? they have been historically identified with the Scythians. And descend of the same branch as the Dahe confederation of which the Parni (the Parthian elite tribe) are descend of.



The Massagetae, or Massageteans (Greek: Μασσαγέται, lat. Massagetai),[1] were an ancient Eastern Iranian nomadic confederation,[2][3][4][5][6] who inhabited the steppes of Central Asia, north-east of the Caspian Sea (in modern Turkmenistan, western Uzbekistan, and southern Kazakhstan). The Massagetae are known primarily from the writings of Herodotus who described the Massagetae as living on a sizeable portion of the great plain east of the Caspian Sea.[7]
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[1.215] In their dress and mode of living the Massagetae resemble the Scythians. They fight both on horseback and on foot, neither method is strange to them: they use bows and lances, but their favourite weapon is the battle-axe. Their arms are all either of gold or brass. For their spear-points, and arrow-heads, and for their battle-axes, they make use of brass; for head-gear, belts, and girdles, of gold. So too with the caparison of their horses, they give them breastplates of brass, but employ gold about the reins, the bit, and the cheek-plates. They use neither iron nor silver, having none in their country; but they have brass and gold in abundance.
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In which world do the Massagetae not belong to the Iranic branch? Give me a break or do more research dear friend.
 
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" Thus for example the first Kassite king, Gandash, has a name which is rather obviously reminiscent of the Indian deity Ganesha, whilst other kings such as Abirattash, Kara-indash, and Burnaburish (or Burraburiash) are equally to be placed in the Indo-Iranian family. The name Burraburiash may even be a precise equivalent of the Persian Gobryas. "

http://www.hyksos.org/index.php?title=Kassites_and_Scythians



" Kassites

Kassites or Cassites (both: kăsˈĪts) [key], ancient people, probably of Indo-European origin. They were first mentioned in historical texts as occupying the W Iranian plateau. In the 18th cent. B.C. they swept down on Babylonia, conquered the region, and ruled there until the 12th cent. B.C., when they returned to the Iranian plateau. They remained more or less independent until the beginning of the Christian era, when they disappeared from history.

The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2012, Columbia University Press. All rights reserved. "

http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/kassites.html




Kassites & Kossaeans


" Several modern historians such as K. Balkan (in 1986, p. 8) and M. Heinz (in 1995, p. 167) have stated that the Kassite rulers of Babylon were members of the Indo-Iranian Kossaean people based in Hamadan-Kermanshah-Luristan area, but whose origins are not mentioned in historical records. The historians make several additional conclusions or assumptions:

First, that the Kossaeans mentioned by Greek writers were the successors of the Babylonian Kassites who were driven out of Babylonia by conquering Elamites (neighbours of the Kossaeans) in the 12th century BCE.

Second, that the Kassites in fleeing to Kossaea were returning to their ancestral lands.

Third, that the Kassites were originally Indo-Iranian Kossaeans who had settled the Hamadan-Kermanshah-Luristan area prior to the 17th century BCE.

Fourth, that the Indo-Iranian Kossaeans were immigrants to the area since they are not mentioned as being among the peoples who inhabited the central and southern Zagros in Sargonic (2270-2215 BCE) and Ur III / Third Dynasty of Ur era (21st to 20th century BCE) inscriptions. As we shall see below, these assumptions and conclusions are plausible.

Hamadan and Kermanshah, are two provinces with eponymous capital cities that straddle the northern Zagros mountains placing them strategically on the Aryan trade roads - the Silk Roads. Luristan lies to their south and the Iranian province of Elam is found to the west of Luristan. Elam and Kermanshah border modern-day Iraq and what would have been Northern Babylonia (see map). "


http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/ranghaya/kassites.htm



" Mesopotamia witnessed the arrival about 1760 bce of the Kassites, who introduced the horse and the chariot and bore Indo-European names. "

https://www.britannica.com/place/India/Early-Vedic-period#ref485125
 
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