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Thread: R1b - Arab

  1. #101
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-BY139812
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Arab
    Country: Turkey



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Must View Post
    Very interesting theory. Arab history claims the original Arab cane from a man named A’dnan. He was the first Arab as was his tribe. Then another group came in headed by a man named Qahtan. The two tribes intermarried and that have way to a second group of Arabs. After learning a little about haplogroups I’m of the opinion the original adnani Arab is E1b1b and the arabized group that came in ie Qahtani Arabs are J1 P58. You still have pocket of black Arabs in Saudi, Yemen and the gulf states. Interesting they call the Khaal in Arabic. Which means the maternal uncle. Makes sense to call them that if the Qahtani Arab married the women of the adnani tribes. The adnani men would then be maternal uncles. All very interesting.
    Adnan is according to traditional Arab genealogy the patriarch of the "Arabized" North Arabians, and those are not considered to be the "real Arabs". Qahtan was the patriarch of the South Arabians and his descendants are considered to be the "real Arabs". Obviously this can be dumped into the garbage bin of history. The dull view of medieval Arab historians, that the most ancient inscriptions and indications of civilization on the Peninsula are found in the south and thus that must be the place where real Arabs (Arabic speakers) come from, is complete nonsense. And modern disciplines already doubt and refute this, non of the senile tribals seems to care, but this same old tune is not accurate.
    I cite (A New History of Arabia, written in stone, May 2018): "To Al-Jallad, the Safaitic inscriptions indicate that various ancient forms of Arabic were present many centuries before the rise of classical Arabic, in places such as Syria and Jordan. He argues that the language may have originated there and then migrated south—suggesting that the “corrupt” forms of Arabic spoken around the region may, in fact, have lineages older than classical Arabic. Macdonald told me, “His theory will inevitably meet a lot of opposition, mainly for non-academic reasons. But it’s becoming more and more convincing."
    https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cu...itten-in-stone
    When we look at the paternal lines of the Arabians we can clearly see that they are dominated by "northern" lines (J1 and J2, and others), so a migration from the north to the south for the Arabic language is likely. These various E lines which seem more ancient in the Southern Near East due to their presence in the Natufians, can imply that there were other Afro-Asiatic languages spoken on the Peninsula before the entrance of the earlier forms of Arabic (this is not implied, it is a fact that there were Afro-Asiatic languages spoken on the Peninsula during ancient times which were not related closely to modern Arabic, completely different branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family). Since an Arab, is who speaks Arabic, and not who lives on the Peninsula for the longest time, the northern migrants (Adnani) Arabs can be considered to be the real Arabs. What can be said for sure is that the inscriptions of Southern Arabia have nothing in common of what developed into classical Arabic, the origins of that language and its offsprings are related to languages whose origins lie in the North (more to read about this in the article).
    -
    The first person to be tested for the same terminal SNP as me after doing BigY is from the tribe of Banu Tamim and his particular family migrated to Kuwait from central Arabia 200 years ago. In the next YFull version we will fall under the same terminal branch also on that tree. However, I do not think that the tmrca will get as young as that I can assume we share a common ancestor in the early medieval time. I currently reduce this to common Adnani origin of our tribes (Banu Shayban from Bakr is an Adnanite tribe through Rabia, Banu Tamim is an Adnanite tribe through Mudar) and could imagine that this clade (R-BY139812) was present among Ancient North Arabian speakers. Nevertheless I assume a migration of my particular paternal line to the Diyar Bakr region happened during early Islamic times.

    (Symbol picture: Arab man and woman in the town of Mardin (southeastern Turkey), 1914)
    Last edited by raspberry; 09-03-19 at 20:49.

  2. #102
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Eber had two sons Peleg and Joktan(Qahtan), Eber is approximately a 13th descendant Of Adam.
    Qahtanis trace their lineage to Joktan (Qahtan).
    Abraham is approximately a 5th descendant of Peleg. Abraham had a son named Ismail, and Adnan is approximately a 40th descendant of Ismail.

  3. #103
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali Shah View Post
    Eber had two sons Peleg and Joktan(Qahtan), Eber is approximately a 13th descendant Of Adam.
    Qahtanis trace their lineage to Joktan (Qahtan).
    Abraham is approximately a 5th descendant of Peleg. Abraham had a son named Ismail, and Adnan is approximately a 40th descendant of Ismail.
    Thank you for the input.

    There are new developments of R1b-V1636 among people of Arab descent. Recently I saw a person from Baghdad (Iraq) with the nisba al-Bakri predicted as belonging to R1b-V1636 in the R1b Basal Subclades Group (this is the second Iraqi being tested for V1636 after a person from 3ana). I directly assumed that he must belong to the Banu Bakr bin Wail tribe as me, but since there was also the name of his particular family mentioned, I could research it and I saw that the person actually belongs to a family claiming paternal descend from the first caliph of Islam Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr was from the Adnani Banu Taim tribe, a rather unimportant subtribe of the Quraysh.

    Looking at his 12 tested markers it seems like he belongs to the subbranch Y83069 of V1636 below which currently exist 3 identified clusters. One "Caucasian" cluster defined by the following STR values (DYS426=11, DYF406S1=12, DYS511=11), one "Eurasian" cluster found among a Pomak (Muslim Bulgarian) and a Hui Chinese (Muslim Chinese, with Salur Turkic paternal ancestors), and another "Arab" cluster BY139812 founded by me, an Arab from southeastern Turkey and an Arab from the Banu Tamim tribe from Kuwait.

    So this newly tested Iraqi person will very likely fall under the major subclade Y83069 for sure, but what cluster he will fall further under is unclear yet. Maybe he will also belong to the "Arab" cluster. But this is at the moment only likely speculation.

    There are very likely plenty of undiscovered subclades below Y83069. For example on the BigY Block tree, you can see that a Lebanese person (I know nothing on his background) was also tested for the major subbranch Y83069 of R1b-V1636, but he falls neither among our Arab cluster, nor among any of the previously mentioned subclades of Y83069.. So also he will get an own branch as soon as he finds a genetic partner (cousin).

    Since I wrote about the phylogenetic structure of V1636, I will also write about the counterpart of Y83069. The subbranch V1274 is the other big subbranch of V1636. Below V1274 there can be found a big cluster of Southern Europeans (defined by the SNP CTS6460), with another big subclade made out of Ashkenazi Jews (currently 10 Ashkenazi Jews are assigned to this clade of V1274>CTS6460 in the R1b Basal Subclade group), another cluster of southern Europeans like Greeks, Italians and Spanish/colonial Carribeans, and another cluster made by out by one "German" (rather another Jewish clade of V1274) sample from Württemberg (south Germany with a most distant ancestor called Anthoni Flinspach (could be Jewish)) and a colonial American (most distant ancestor: Melchoir Hefner, this is probably also a Jew). Interestingly, also another Iraqi from 3Ana in West Iraq is assigned to V1274*. So also V1274 has presence in the Near East despite Y83069 clearly being dominant there. The tmrca of the two major subbranches of V1636 (there is another undiscovered major one made out currently by an undefined Georgian who is V1636*) is 4700ybp. So Y83069 and V1274 split at least 4700 years ago, a relatively old split.

    I honestly have no clue by whom R1b-V1636 and especially its major subclades were carried by. V1636 has a very wide presence among various modern people. Y83069 was maybe (this is just an idea based on nothing actually) carried by Hurro-Urartian speakers originally and was integrated into the early Semitic communities of the Northern Near East. With these it could have diverged into modern Arab speakers and Levantine Semitic speakers. Some Hurro-Urartian speakers could have been part of the proto-Indo-European community in the caucasus/Eastern Anatolia and be integrated into the Steppe cultures north of the Caucasus. With those it could have expanded to Bulgaria and China (where apparently more than one person belongs to V1636). Interestingly, the tmrca between the Hui and Pomak are only 2400ybp. That is very young. Does that fit to any Steppe expansion culture (Scythians?)?

    How V1274 can be exlpained is a mystery to me, yes the Steppe hordes theory is always the easiest, but it is just nonsense. V1274 is found nearly only among Jews and South Europeans (+ one basal form in Iraq), so probably this is also something agriculture peasant related.. Interestingly, V1636 missed all the ethnic Indo Europeans of East Europe in Ukraine and Russia, but made its way into the Jews there and to the south Europeans.
    Last edited by raspberry; 21-06-19 at 11:47.

  4. #104
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    And again there are new developments for R-BY139812 among Arabs. Today I saw on the Big-Y Block Tree that a man from Qatar was tested positive for R-BY139812. Now it seems to me even clearer that R-BY139812 is an Arabian clade which was carried with the Islamic expansion to parts of Mesopotamia and southeastern Anatolia, very likely with nomadic Arabs from the Peninsula. I hope that many more people will be tested further on for our clade and that this cousin from Qatar will make an YFull analysis.

  5. #105
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    I will continue this thread despite no participation from others because I see the still rising views. Mabye some of the people tested also found this thread already while googling.

    First of all 2 new Kuwaitis are tested positive for R1b-BY139812. These two from a particular family of the big Banu Tamim tribe are until now my closest 12-STR Matches (9/12, on all tested STRs there are way more matching). It could be that my paternal ancestors were also from this tribe since there were some people in the early Arab history of southeastern Anatolia who were from this tribe.

    So for example Salih bin Musarrih at-Tamimi who was a pious man and resided at the village of Dara between Mardin and Nusaybin (modern-day Mardin province in southeastern Turkey). He was a humble man (see at-Tabari for this description) who taught the Quran in the surrounding region where he had followers. In 699 the Sufri Kharjite rebelled with his followers against the Ummayad Caliphs whom he saw as decadent and distant from religion. Only few years after he started his rebellion the Ummayad Forces confronted him in battle and killed him. The rebellion moved over to Shabib ibn Yazid ash-Shaybani who proved far more formidable.

    This shows that the Banu Tamim tribe was present among the early Arabs of Anatolia. In the outskirts of my Village there is even a grave called Sheykh Shehid (Shaykh martyr) where the surrounding nature is left untouched. However, there are so many Kharjite Arabs who were killed during battle (and stemed from Anatolia) as that I cannot surely say who this man in particular was (also not known by other researchers).

    Next to this: there is now a Lebanese Person tested for our "Arab" clade of R1b-BY139812. I do not know his origins (City). And most recently a Yemeni man from Hadramaut is also tested for this clade. So our clade is present throughout the Arabian Peninsula (and outside of it). And I am sure there are more to come.

  6. #106
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    With the study "Genomic History of to Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia..." (https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867420305092) a new ancient V1636 from Arslantepe was found. The paper is behind a paywall.

    Nevertheless the scientists stated that the sample had no autosomal influence from north of the Caucasus, so no Steppe input. I requested the YFull team to add him to the V1636 tree. I could imagine that he falls under the Caucasus clade of Y106006 (this cluster is not on the YFull tree (yet) since no carrier of this clade added his sample to the Yfull tree).

    Another thing which I want to mention is: contrary as stated in some places, sample 600-1500 BC; Tel Megiddo, Palestine; Megiddo_MLBA;

    is not V1636, but M269 >L52 (from the southern Levant ancient paper).

    Currently, I am only wondering about the Tomsk Tatar sample on our Arab subclade of V1636. I do not think it is a migration from Siberia to the southern Near East. Rather a split which happened in the Near East. Uruk expansion could make sense in the context of V1636, also for Arslantepe which had clearly no signs of Steppe DNA.


    Funnily, I am just seeing, while posting this map, that Arslantepe is a city created (influenced by colonists) of the Uruk expansion. So my ideas which I had for 5 months or so now for V1636 are making more and more sense.

    Some could argue and say that V1636 was found in Eneolithic southern Steppe Piedmont (basically Caucasus). But these samples were nearly completely autosomally from south of the Steppes. Also there is not a single Neolithic sample from southern Mesopotamia where I expect the earliest forms of V1636 to apper. Anyway there are admittedly many questions open.

    And a small correction regarding my last post: The revolt of bin Musarrih was defeated after few months and not years. I read that he was from Banu Imru al Qays bin Zayd Manat bin Tamim.
    Last edited by raspberry; 08-06-20 at 21:36.

  7. #107
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  8. #108
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    Posting only in English please.


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