R1b - Arab

[raspberry]

Hello, I am an Arab (thought to be) from south-eastern Anatolia. My tribe originally came from central Arabia. So after my ordered y-DNA 37 markers test results were finished, they could not determine my y-Haplogroup.
The result of nevgen.org are:
The highest probability is haplogroup Q-M346 with a probability of 0,4% and a fitness of 15,82.

Probability of unsupported subclade is: 99.60%

After that I wrot familytreedna that I still (a few weeks passed) have not a determined y-DNA haplogroup and so they made a Backbone test. And today I got my haplogroup and it is R-M343 (R1b). So what does this haplogroup say about my ethnicity and about my origins? I have no connections to Central nor Western Europe. So what is behind this result? I would apreciate if one of you experts could help me.

	Haplogroup	Probability	Fitness
1	Q M346	0,4	15,82	0,45
2	R1b (for 67+ markers, try level for R1b-s, 160+ subclades)	0	15,96	0,32
3	R1a (for 67+ markers, try level for R1a-s, 70+ subclades)	0	10,48	0,22
4	I2a2a M223	0	7,77	0,19
5	O2a	0	7,55	0,18
6	E1b1b	0	7,54	0,21
7	R2	0	7,46	0,18
8	R1b V88	0	7,39	0,16
9	T>PF5633	0	7,01	0,16
10	N1b	0	6,56	0,12
11	J1a3-Z1828	0	6,56	0,15
12	J1a2a1a2 P58	0	5,76	0,12
13	R1a YP1272	0	5,68	0,09

[raspberry]

sorry the str-values table did not work and it is not possible to edit so I post my str-Values manually here:
DYS393,DYS390,DYS19,DYS391,DYS385,DYS426,DYS388,DY S439,DYS389I,DYS392,DYS389II,DYS458,DYS459,DYS455, DYS454,DYS447,DYS437,DYS448,DYS449,DYS464,DYS460,Y-GATA-H4,YCAII,DYS456,DYS607,DYS576,DYS570,CDY,DYS442,DY S438,
13,24,15,10,13-13,12,13,12,12,13,28,15,9-9,11,11,27,14,17,28,14-14-16-17,11,11,23-23,15,16,17,16,35-36,13,11
It is the standard myFTDNA order

[Athiudisc]

And today I got my haplogroup and it is R-M343 (R1b). So what does this haplogroup say about my ethnicity and about my origins? I have no connections to Central nor Western Europe.

M343 just means you're R1b. It could just as easily be African or middle eastern R1b as European.

[raspberry]

M343 just means you're R1b. It could just as easily be African or middle eastern R1b as European.

And how can I determine if it is the R1b from the Arabian Peninsula? Is that possible?

[Athiudisc]

You'd have to have further testing to see which relatively more-common subclades you fall under.

There is some smallish amount of R1b in Arabia, IIRC, but I honestly don't know what types. I would assume V88, but someone will probably chime in sooner or later with more knowledge.

[raspberry]

The results are very unsatisfying.. It seems like I have to pay another 99$ and I think I wont do that for a few snps.. Could it be that I am a kurd on my father´s site because arabs and kurds are living very close together in the jazira (North-mesopotamia)? As far as I know the Kurds are Indo-Europeans..

[Alan]

Hello, I am an Arab (thought to be) from south-eastern Anatolia. My tribe originally came from central Arabia. So after my ordered y-DNA 37 markers test results were finished, they could not determine my y-Haplogroup.
The result of nevgen.org are:
The highest probability is haplogroup Q-M346 with a probability of 0,4% and a fitness of 15,82.

Probability of unsupported subclade is: 99.60%

After that I wrot familytreedna that I still (a few weeks passed) have not a determined y-DNA haplogroup and so they made a Backbone test. And today I got my haplogroup and it is R-M343 (R1b). So what does this haplogroup say about my ethnicity and about my origins? I have no connections to Central nor Western Europe. So what is behind this result? I would apreciate if one of you experts could help me.

	Haplogroup	Probability	Fitness
1	Q M346	0,4	15,82	0,45
2	R1b (for 67+ markers, try level for R1b-s, 160+ subclades)	0	15,96	0,32
3	R1a (for 67+ markers, try level for R1a-s, 70+ subclades)	0	10,48	0,22
4	I2a2a M223	0	7,77	0,19
5	O2a	0	7,55	0,18
6	E1b1b	0	7,54	0,21
7	R2	0	7,46	0,18
8	R1b V88	0	7,39	0,16
9	T>PF5633	0	7,01	0,16
10	N1b	0	6,56	0,12
11	J1a3-Z1828	0	6,56	0,15
12	J1a2a1a2 P58	0	5,76	0,12
13	R1a YP1272	0	5,68	0,09

IN that region your Haplogroup R1b M343 is very common among Kurds. You are from Southeastern Anatolia, I heard of many cases where Kurds, Armenians or Assyrians suddenly started to claim Arab ancestry to have more previliges. R1b M343 is very atypical for an Arab.

Wait for your total results and use some Gedmatch calculators I bet you will be close to Kurds.

If you are from "Jazira" (Cizre), this region is predominantly Kurd, over 90% from my knowledge and it is situated almost in the heartlands of the Kurdish geographic territory. Therefore you could either be predominantly Kurd or at least have a Kurdish ancestor on your paternal site.

[raspberry]

IN that region your Haplogroup R1b M343 is very common among Kurds. You are from Southeastern Anatolia, I heard of many cases where Kurds, Armenians or Assyrians suddenly started to claim Arab ancestry to have more previliges. R1b M343 is very atypical for an Arab.

Wait for your total results and use some Gedmatch calculators I bet you will be close to Kurds.

There is nothing like a Kurd. Kurds are nothing more than a genetic mix of many peoples of the world. Nobody of my family started to claim anything. I am muslim (no not since 1915: I am not an Armenia) and only 11% R1b among the kurds, this is not very much. By the way the Kurds payed taxes to the Arab sheikhs of the Jazira (also my ancestors) until 1918 so the kurds could herd their animals in the ARAB Jazira. My did not start to claim because they were the head of a tribe so it wouldnt make any sence. And one question: You said "wait for your total result", does this mean I will get more to know?

[raspberry]

the Jazira is the arab name of the region of North-Mesopotamia: divided in 3 parts: Diyar Bakr ("abode of Bakr", named after the great arab tribe of Bani Bakr ibn Wa´il), Diyar Rabiaa and Diyar Mudar. All of these regions are named after arab tribes mostly from central arabia. This is also the region why there is 11,8% J1 in Kurds, because Arab tribals are living in South-East Anatolia since pre-Islamic time but also later after the conquest of the Jazira by the muslims, arabs were settled there. No I am from an arabic village from somewhere else.

[Alan]

There is nothing like a Kurd. Kurds are nothing more than a genetic mix of many peoples of the world. Nobody of my family started to claim anything. I am muslim (no not since 1915: I am not an Armenia) and only 11% R1b among the kurds, this is not very much. By the way the Kurds payed taxes to the Arab sheikhs of the Jazira (also my ancestors) until 1918 so the kurds could herd their animals in the ARAB Jazira. My did not start to claim because they were the head of a tribe so it wouldnt make any sence. And one question: You said "wait for your total result", does this mean I will get more to know?

Don't even dare to try to dispute the existence of a people or this will be considered as racist attack.
Take your fictional Arab pride and show it off somewhere else. And don't try to lecture me about Genetics you know nothing about you are just making yourself look more ridiculous as you already are. R1b M343 is atypical for an Arab. Only R1b V88 is common among Levantine Arabs. R1b among Kurds reaches levels between 10-25% and is definitely more common among them as among Arabs.

Kurds are genetically proven to be some of the most homogenous groups in the entire Middle East. Arabs are just a bunch of camel herding ethno-linguistic nomads who differ from one to another by thousand miles. A Syrian Arab is as far away from a Bedouin in Saudi Arabia as he is from a Assyrian, Armenians or Kurd. North African "Arabs" are even on a whole other level. An Arab talking about genetic purity and disputing other peoples existence is irony on a whole new level.

Here is a genetic PCA of Kurds , Arabs and various other peoples show me the homogeneity you are claiming for. The non existent "mixed" Kurds are 4 times as homogenous as the Arab samples, don't get a heart attack.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn...01/MDS1600.png

Your "Arab" Jazira is just a name given to this city by Arabs that doesn't mean it's population was ever Arab.It's original name is Corduene. Or are you seriously disputing the demography of Cizre?

It is populated by a majority of Kurds in addition to Assyrian/Syriac people and other minorities. It is surrounded by the Tigris on the north, east and south; this gives it its name

Levant is a Latin word, so is Syria foreign term after your logic Syria is not Arabic. I have hard time to understand how supposedly the descendant of Bedouin Herders himself could try to look down on Kurdish Nomads.

And nice fairy tales about your Arab Sheiks. Don't feel too uncomfortable when it turns out that your paternal ancestor was Kurd rather than Arab. And next time you throw bold claims into the room make sure you can provide any scientific evidences otherwise this will be considered simply spam ming.

[raspberry]

What is this for a agressive language towards me? Why are you so upset now? You are from Germany than read the article "Araber in der Türkei" on wikipedia. You are nothing more than a racist. Syria is not arabic, yes you are right. Also north-africa isnt arabic. Even the arab theirselves arent. Genetic studies on saudis proved that 14 % of them are of african origin. The UAE was the arabic country with the lowest arican influence, but still they had 35% persian origin on paternal site.

[Angela]

I'm issuing this warning once. I won't do it again. Stop with the insults or I'm going to have to issue infractions; I'll have no choice.

Cool off and keep it civil.

[Alan]

What is this for a agressive language towards me? Why are you so upset now? You are from Germany than read the article "Araber in der Türkei" on wikipedia. You are nothing more than a racist. Syria is not arabic, yes you are right. Also north-africa isnt arabic. Even the arab theirselves arent. Genetic studies on saudis proved that 14 % of them are of african origin. The UAE was the arabic country with the lowest arican influence, but still they had 35% persian origin on paternal site.

Aggressive language? You seem to have a short memory. Who actually started to dispute the existence of an entire people with racist remarks and talk about genetic purity?

The difference between Arab tribes is not the result of Sub Saharan admixture alone, because it virtually exists in every Arabs. There are no Arabs without it. Jordanians, Palestinians have 8% of it. Saudis have ~10%, Yemenites up to 10-15%, Syrians and Levantines ~4%. Yet the difference is there because all of these have different historical background. Iraqi Arabs and Kuwaitis cluster between Kurds, Persians and Saudis.Syrians are like a link between Kurds and Lebanese. Morrocans etc are something of their own. Next time think again before you make a comment about genetic purity. And take a second thought about your words and if they might be a little racist and offensive. I don't get offensive when I don't feel attacked. And certanly your comment was offensive.

[Alan]

Back to my previous comment
R1b M343 in that region is most common among Kurds, this is why I made the suggestion. Arabians don't have R1b at all, only Levantines have some and it is R1b V88 for most part.

3x R1-M173 (Zaza from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
4x R1-M173 (Kurmanji from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
5x R1-M173 (Kurds from Turkmenistan in Nasidze et al., 2005; originally used in Wells et al., 2001)

2x R1b-M343 (Kurdish village Dogukoy*/Central Anatolia in Gokcumen et al., 2011)
1x R1b-M343 (Iranian Kurds in Grugni et al., 2012)
13x R1b-M343 (Iraqi Kurds in Stenersen et al., 2004; based on Athey's Haplogroup predictor)
1x R1b1a2*-M269 (Kurmanji from Zakho/Iraq)
2x R1b1a2a-L23/L49 (Zaza from Turkey)
1x R1b1a2a-L23/L49 (Zaza from Lebanon, originally from Dersim)
1x R1b1a2a-L23/L49 (Kurd from Dersim)
1x R1b1a2a-L23/L49 (Zaza from Dersim)
1x R1b1a2a-L23/L49 (Zaza from Dersim)
1x R1b1a2a-L23/L49 (Kurd from Turkey)
2x R1b1a2a-L23 (Kurdistan-Iran in Cristofaro et al., 2013)
1x R1b1b2a1a-L52,P311,L11,P310 (Zaza from Sivas, originally from Dersim)
1x R1b1 (P25+)(Kurmanji from Maras/Elbistan/Turkey)

16x R1+R1b+R2 a.k.a. hg1 (Iraqi Kurds in Nebel et al., 2001)
54x R1+R1b+R2 a.k.a. hg1 (Yezidis from Armenia in Yepiskoposian et al., 2006)

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/

[raspberry]

Aggressive language? You seem to have a short memory. Who actually started to dispute the existence of an entire people with racist remarks and talk about genetic purity?

The difference between Arab tribes is not the result of Sub Saharan admixture alone, because it virtually exists in every Arabs. There are no Arabs without it. Jordanians, Palestinians have 8% of it. Saudis have ~10%, Yemenites up to 10-15%, Syrians and Levantines ~4%. Yet the difference is there because all of these have different historical background. Iraqi Arabs and Kuwaitis cluster between Kurds, Persians and Saudis.Syrians are like a link between Kurds and Lebanese. Morrocans etc are something of their own. Next time think twice before you come up with genetic purity. And take a second thought about your words and if they might be a little racist and offensive. I don't get offensive when I don't feel attacked. And certanly your comment was offensive.

What I wanted to say is that J1-M267 is the original arab paternal haplogroup. And this you can read even on Eupedia itself. While something like this does not exist in the Kurdish people. And stop bring politics in this. By the way when did I ask for the gentics of Arabs? The goal of this thread was not "speaking of the arabic countries and their genetics" but about the result of my y-dna.

[raspberry]

Kurdish haplogroups: J2:23,6%
E:12,6%
J1:11,8%
R1b:11,2%
R1a:10,6%
R2:6,9%
I:6,0%
T:5,4%
G:5,0%
F:2,8%
L:2,1%
P:0,9%
C:0,5%
H:0,4%
Q:0,1%

[Tomenable]

If they carried out R1b Backbone SNP Pack test, then you should already know what is your subclade.

I have just ordered R1b SNP Pack few days ago and now I'm waiting for results (it takes few weeks).

[raspberry]

Tests Taken

M343+
This is what I see when I scroll down at my Y-Dna haplotree..

[LeBrok]

There is nothing like a Kurd. Kurds are nothing more than a genetic mix of many peoples of the world. Nobody of my family started to claim anything. I am muslim (no not since 1915: I am not an Armenia) and only 11% R1b among the kurds, this is not very much. By the way the Kurds payed taxes to the Arab sheikhs of the Jazira (also my ancestors) until 1918 so the kurds could herd their animals in the ARAB Jazira. My did not start to claim because they were the head of a tribe so it wouldnt make any sence. And one question: You said "wait for your total result", does this mean I will get more to know?

As an outsider in this discussion, I would like to say that this post is insulting to Krudish ethnicity. It is against Eupedia rules to degrade any ethnicity or nationality. Just keep in mind.

Welcome to Eupedia raspberry.

[Twilight]

Being from Turkey, you are descended from Arab conquest but also from Gokturks, Hittites, Galatians; they inhabited central Turkey, and Ancient Greeks. You could have a Kurdish ancestor also if they converted to Islam.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göktürks


Here is an explanation on how R1b ended up in Anatolia


Galatians:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...shtml#S28-U152
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatians_(people)



Hittites:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Greco-Anatolian

You can be Arab spiritually but even though your ancestors converted to Islam, that doesn't quite guarantee that all of your Ancestors came from Saudi Arabia. Your Ydna R1b is only your father's father's father's father's direct lineage; just like your last name. Doing an Audna test like ancestry.com or 23andme or other sites is recommended to find out about all of your ancestors.

IN that region your Haplogroup R1b M343 is very common among Kurds. You are from Southeastern Anatolia, I heard of many cases where Kurds, Armenians or Assyrians suddenly started to claim Arab ancestry to have more previliges. R1b M343 is very atypical for an Arab.

Wait for your total results and use some Gedmatch calculators I bet you will be close to Kurds.

If you are from "Jazira" (Cizre), this region is predominantly Kurd, over 90% from my knowledge and it is situated almost in the heartlands of the Kurdish geographic territory. Therefore you could either be predominantly Kurd or at least have a Kurdish ancestor on your paternal site.

Im so sorry about this raspberry, we must be having a culture clash. If it makes you feel more comfortable, please feel free to PM me. ^_^

[bicicleur]

IMO R1b* was allready in NW Iran some 15 ka. That is the place from where it expanded.
We need to know subclades.

[Dinarid]

Something must be wrong with the quality in order for those results to be so low-confidence. How did you enter the STR values? I've heard of some issues with Nevgen anyway although it worked pretty well with me.

[Tomenable]

Genetiker posted SNP calls from Neolithic Central Anatolia and one sample - Tep001 - could be R1b:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-tep001/

[Tomenable]

Being from Turkey, you are descended from Arab conquest

Actually Arabs never managed to conquer entire Byzantine Anatolia.

Seljuk Turks did that in the 11th century after the battle of Manzikert.

[Twilight]

Actually Arabs never managed to conquer entire Byzantine Anatolia.

Seljuk Turks did that in the 11th century after the battle of Manzikert.

Not literally, Arabs are a broad range. The literal Arabs are from Saudi Arabia but the Arabs are from all over the Middle East and are very diverse people whom speak the Arabic language. The Romans had a tendency to define cultures by languages also so this method in defining ones culture is Ancient.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_in_Turkey