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Thread: Allergies-Why do Amish children suffer less from them?

  1. #26
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    So that's a no...

    You're losing your grip, Melancon.

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    What is a no? What studies do you have? Give me some links that prove that Miscegenation comes with lesser birth defects. Mind you, I want government documents, not something from some news article in the UK.

    I believe that you are the one who is losing their grip.

    Source-

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15390318

    "A total of 11.2% of births were to parents of mixed race-ethnicity. Compared to births of parents who were both white, moderately increased risks (risk ratio >/= 1.7) of anencephaly, polydactyly, and microtia, and decreased risks (risk ratio </= 0.6) of hypospadias and hypertrophic pyloric stenosis were observed among births of several mixed race-ethnicity groups. For anencephaly, polydactyly, and microtia, but not other phenotypes, the risks were different depending on whether maternal versus paternal race-ethnicity was considered. Risks observed between births of a nonwhite parent and a white parent and births of parents who were both nonwhite were similar for most malformation phenotypes."

    There is your proof that Miscegenation right there, comes with more risk factors for birth defects...if I cannot get it into your head, then it is worthless. People are free to marry whomever they want, but I wouldn't recommend it.

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    You want a study showing that there aren't problems attendant to birthing a child of mixed origin due to cranial shape?



    Do you have a single study suggesting that there are?

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    Um, I just linked you one.

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    You must have provided the wrong link. The differing skull shapes of population groups are not malformations, and are not addressed in the study you referenced.

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    You won't find, or find very little, in this day and age, the truths of Miscegenation. But pre-WW2 books on anthropology (mostly by Norwegians and Danes) found that the risk of congenital defects and mother-infant mortality during birth were substantially higher with mixed-couples than those of the norm. These people were not Nazi's either. It is harder to find these days, especially in Europe, because Political correctness has attempted to hide this information from the mainstream.

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    Ok. I don't believe that addresses the idea that women have difficulty birthing a child of mixed origin due to the natural form of either skull or vagina, though, which is what started our exchange.

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    Even if I did find that book, it's written in Old Danish - you would not be able to read it. But I am sure there are several anthropology books from pre-WW2 that can be found in almost every country, saying the same things regarding Miscegenation. Try searching Google Books, as will I.

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    I'm not arguing against the deleterious effects you're speaking of.

    I doubt that a thousand year-old book would be of much use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiudisc View Post
    Ok. I don't believe that addresses the idea that women have difficulty birthing a child of mixed origin due to the natural form of either skull or vagina, though, which is what started our exchange.
    How could it not be obvious though? Put two and two together. Imagine a short, skinny Ectomorph East Asian female giving birth to a tall, robust Endomorphic Australoid male's child. You don't believe her tiny body would have problems with that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiudisc View Post
    I'm not arguing against the deleterious effects you're speaking of.

    I doubt that a thousand year-old book would be of much use.
    It wasn't a thousand years old. It was written in Old Danish for the simple reason that both Norwegian and Danish anthropologists to read about it....and better understand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtue View Post
    How could it not be obvious though? Put two and two together. Imagine a short, skinny Ectomorph East Asian female giving birth to a tall, robust Endomorphic Australoid male's child. You don't believe her tiny body would have problems with that?
    Not any more than she'd have with the odd stocky Asian child, no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtue View Post
    It wasn't a thousand years old. It was written in Old Danish for the simple reason that both Norwegian and Danish anthropologists to read about it....and better understand...
    Ok. I wasn't aware this was a thing, honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiudisc View Post
    I'm not arguing against the deleterious effects you're speaking of.

    I doubt that a thousand year-old book would be of much use.
    Miscegenation was also banned in the South until 1967-



    Oops, another ignorance of you, exposed. 1967. Makes me wonder if you are a native to Tennessee.

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    I never claimed to be. Much like I never claimed anything regarding anti-miscegenation laws.

    Oops on your part. Keep it together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiudisc View Post
    Not any more than she'd have with the odd stocky Asian child, no.
    But the point is, how common is the odd stocky child? And what are it's odds to be born with a birth defect, compared to a different race?

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    Birth defects have nothing to do with it. I still see nothing to suggest that the natural shape of a child's skull, if that child is of mixed origin, conflicts with the natural shape of a woman's vagina to such a degree as to cause birthing difficulties due to those factors alone.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Cancer is as old as man:
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...ossil-science/

    Most cancers occur after age 60. In large measure it's a disease of aging. What percentage of people used to live to 60? In previous eras they also didn't know what caused certain symptoms. Yes, ancient physicians could see a mass in the abdomen or breast, but what about masses in the lungs, or bone cancer, or liver cancer, or primary brain tumors, or blood cancers, and on and on. The "bloody flux" could be caused by a lot of things, and one of them is bowel cancer.

    If some posters aren't aware of the genetic component to cancer, I don't know where they've been. Not only certain forms of breast cancer run in families. So do certain forms of bowel cancer, as in my mother's family, or liver cancer as in former President Carter's family, where practically everyone of his generation in his family have gotten it except him.

    That isn't to say that certain environmental factors don't impact it. If you have a "risk" allele, your odds are higher, and environmental factors may increase it. If you have multiple "risk" alleles you'll probably get it no matter what you do. If you have all "good" alleles, you can probably do and be exposed to pretty much everything. That's why I had a great-uncle who smoked, drank a little too much, and ate the fattiest and most carbohydrate high diet imaginable until he finally kicked the bucket at 93.

    I also think it's romanticizing the past to think that people living then were not exposed to harmful agents, and that goes for hunter-gatherers too. When scientists examine their lungs, they're covered in soot from all the fires in enclosed places. I would think smiths would have been exposed to lots of toxic agents. Plus, as has been mentioned, animals carry disease. Look at the bovine disease that's been found in one of the Caucasus herders.

    As to autism, I definitely think there is a genetic component. I'm not going to bother getting the cites to papers; everyone should know this by now. There are families with a very high incidence, sometimes more than one child in a family. In addition to the genetics factor, the age of the father at conception may also be a factor. Another one that I think should be studied is drug use in both the mother and the father. I don't know if it's just coincidence, but the people I know who were heavy into drugs seem to have children with more "issues", whether it's autism, developmental delay, ADHD, and other types of disorders as well.

    The Amish have their own unique genetic profile, as Maciamo pointed out, because of the inbreeding since the founding of their religion in German speaking Switzerland and surrounding areas. Certain diseases are more frequent than in the average population, and certain ones less frequent. They also have certain recessive genetic diseases, and are studied for them, because of that inbreeding.


    For the record, nobody goes through public education in the U.S. or into the army or gets hired for certain jobs unless they present their vaccination certificate, so it's beyond me how someone could say they've never been vaccinated.

    And here we go with the racist angle again. Some people only see through that lens, apparently. Do you know how much variation there is in Europe, even within one country? In my father's family they all have huge heads, a trait which both my brother and I inherited. My mother said that birthing us was a nightmare, and we were average weight, but it wasn't impossible, and we were both natural childbirth babies: no interventions. Head size is also to some extent dependent on over all weight. How easy do you think it is to give birth to a baby eight pounds and bigger? You guys do also realize that the head of the baby is pretty malleable at birth right? That's for a reason. If you've seen a lot of newborns, the head can be pretty misshapen for a lot of them.

    If you can't provide the scientific proof for this then don't raise it as an issue. This isn't the place for voodoo science.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiudisc View Post
    Birth defects have nothing to do with it. I still see nothing to suggest that the natural shape of a child's skull, if that child is of mixed origin, conflicts with the natural shape of a woman's vagina to such a degree as to cause birthing difficulties due to those factors alone.
    I read it in a book, I don't have the book anymore as it was in an old Scandinavian library. But I remember the vagina (for all races) was not fit to give birth to a race of a different cranial size, and this raised the risk for both mother and infant mortality, and also for the infant, brain damage and mental retardation percentages were extremely higher than average.

    I have a hard time believing you have had children. Cause child birth without proper supervision can be very dangerous, even with your own race.

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    I never claimed to have children, either...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Cancer is as old as man:
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...ossil-science/

    Most cancers occur after age 60. In large measure it's a disease of aging. What percentage of people used to live to 60? In previous eras they also didn't know what caused certain symptoms. Yes, ancient physicians could see a mass in the abdomen or breast, but what about masses in the lungs, or bone cancer, or liver cancer, or primary brain tumors, or blood cancers, and on and on. The "bloody flux" could be caused by a lot of things, and one of them is bowel cancer.

    If some posters aren't aware of the genetic component to cancer, I don't know where they've been. Not only certain forms of breast cancer run in families. So do certain forms of bowel cancer, as in my mother's family, or liver cancer as in former President Carter's family, where practically everyone of his generation in his family have gotten it except him.

    That isn't to say that certain environmental factors don't impact it. If you have a "risk" allele, your odds are higher, and environmental factors may increase it. If you have multiple "risk" alleles you'll probably get it no matter what you do. If you have all "good" alleles, you can probably do and be exposed to pretty much everything. That's why I had a great-uncle who smoked, drank a little too much, and ate the fattiest and most carbohydrate high diet imaginable until he finally kicked the bucket at 93.

    I also think it's romanticizing the past to think that people living then were not exposed to harmful agents, and that goes for hunter-gatherers too. When scientists examine their lungs, they're covered in soot from all the fires in enclosed places. I would think smiths would have been exposed to lots of toxic agents. Plus, as has been mentioned, animals carry disease. Look at the bovine disease that's been found in one of the Caucasus herders.

    As to autism, I definitely think there is a genetic component. I'm not going to bother getting the cites to papers; everyone should know this by now. There are families with a very high incidence, sometimes more than one child in a family. In addition to the genetics factor, the age of the father at conception may also be a factor. Another one that I think should be studied is drug use in both the mother and the father. I don't know if it's just coincidence, but the people I know who were heavy into drugs seem to have children with more "issues", whether it's autism, developmental delay, ADHD, and other types of disorders as well.

    The Amish have their own unique genetic profile, as Maciamo pointed out, because of the inbreeding since the founding of their religion in German speaking Switzerland and surrounding areas. Certain diseases are more frequent than in the average population, and certain ones less frequent. They also have certain recessive genetic diseases, and are studied for them, because of that inbreeding.


    For the record, nobody goes through public education in the U.S. or into the army or gets hired for certain jobs unless they present their vaccination certificate, so it's beyond me how someone could say they've never been vaccinated.
    No offense, but what makes your opinion (or point of view) so different? I can assure you that I am an expert in this field.

    Oh, and here we are...

    1 - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...n-mummies.html

    Even if cancer has existed in ancient times, it does not make it genetic. It could be man-made or made from environmental sources. (ancient human beings traveling in the wrong environment and getting some bad chemicals in the air. Maybe smog or some waste.)

    Think back in tribal days. There were very little reports of cancer until the European industrial revolution. As I said before..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiudisc View Post
    I never claimed to have children, either...
    But that isn't the issue. The issue is that you have to be responsible, am I correct?

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    Sure. Parents or would-be parents should be responsible. No argument there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Amish have their own unique genetic profile, as Maciamo pointed out, because of the inbreeding since the founding of their religion in German speaking Switzerland and surrounding areas. Certain diseases are more frequent than in the average population, and certain ones less frequent. They also have certain recessive genetic diseases, and are studied for them, because of that inbreeding.


    For the record, nobody goes through public education in the U.S. or into the army or gets hired for certain jobs unless they present their vaccination certificate, so it's beyond me how someone could say they've never been vaccinated.

    And here we go with the racist angle again. Some people only see through that lens, apparently. Do you know how much variation there is in Europe, even within one country? In my father's family they all have huge heads, a trait which both my brother and I inherited. My mother said that birthing us was a nightmare, and we were average weight, but it wasn't impossible, and we were both natural childbirth babies: no interventions. Head size is also to some extent dependent on over all weight. How easy do you think it is to give birth to a baby eight pounds and bigger? You guys do also realize that the head of the baby is pretty malleable at birth right? That's for a reason. If you've seen a lot of newborns, the head can be pretty misshapen for a lot of them.

    If you can't provide the scientific proof for this then don't raise it as an issue. This isn't the place for voodoo science.
    What voodoo science? If Maciamo is an anthropologist, he should know these things. I posted the replicas of the skulls...? I have never been vaccinated before, and I thank my mom and dad for that. I have had chicken pox at 2 years old, so the only thing I have to worry about is shingles later in life. And it is true that it is difficult for the mother of a different race to give birth to a mixed-race child. People of different races do not have the same average sizes in their bodies. It's not racism, it's a fact of life. There can be births among mixed-raced individuals, and they can come out healthy. But would someone really want to risk that?

    Most Europeans, especially in Eastern Europe, that have a Mongol ancestor, do so by accident. (because of centuries of Mongol invasions and raping.) There are even Eastern European whites that show descendence from Ghengis Khan. likewise though, it is very rare. And I would not be surprised if congenital diseases or certain autoimmune diseases were more prevalent among these "white" admixed individuals.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtue View Post
    No offense, but what makes your opinion (or point of view) so different? I can assure you that I am an expert in this field.

    Oh, and here we are...

    1 - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...n-mummies.html

    Even if cancer has existed in ancient times, it does not make it genetic. It could be man-made or made from environmental sources. (ancient human beings traveling in the wrong environment and getting some bad chemicals in the air. Maybe smog or some waste.)

    Think back in tribal days. There were very little reports of cancer until the European industrial revolution. As I said before..
    You've been answered as to why there are fewer reports before the industrial revolution.

    What makes my opinion different is that it's based on science.

    As to the genetic factors involved with certain cancers I don't know how anyone living in 2016 can be unaware of the genes already linked to this disease. Ever heard of the breast cancer genes just as one example?

    To deny that genetic risk is voodoo science.

    As to this whole racial angle, as I said above, if you don't have modern scientific references, don't expect anyone to give it any credence. It's voodoo science.

    @Althiudisc,
    Yes, people should be responsible parents.I just read some horrifying statistic about the number of newborns in West Virginia, of all places, who go through drug withdrawal from heroin. Stuff like this makes me crazy. Forget the cost to the taxpayer at the child's birth and perhaps for the rest of its life; think about the suffering of the child then and later on.

    However, the danger for the child is not only in what the mother ingests or is exposed to during pregnancy, but in the chromosomal damage caused by certain drugs that could have taken place long before she even became pregnant, or that was suffered by the father. Also, a great deal of damage can be caused in the first month or so of pregnancy before the mother is even aware that she's pregnant.

    As to "unsupervised" childbirth, for most of human history children were delivered by midwives, so they weren't "unsupervised". A good midwife could be very skilled, and usually cleaner than most doctors. Let's not forget that nobody knew about bacteria. A doctor could be coming from treating someone with a massive infection, or from an amputation or a death bed, and then sticking his hands into some poor woman to turn the infant without washing his hands first.

    There's also a difference between "natural childbirth" and "unsupervised" childbirth. As I said, when a midwife is present, it's not "unsupervised". Furthermore, even in a hospital, which is where I would personally advise women today to give birth, just in the event of a breech birth, or the cord winding up around the baby's neck, or prolonged bleeding etc. you can have "natural" or no drug childbirth, or you can take various pain killers and have some surgical procedures to make the birth "easier", in addition to Caesarian sections. Obviously, if the baby is in difficulty you want to get the Caesarian. However, absent that, both mother and infant are far better off without the drugs and episiotomy. Also, midwives do practice in hospitals, with the doctor as a back up.

    Anyway, we're wandering a bit off track.

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