Ancient Eurasia K6

These tests only really work for people with all four ancestors from one place. They're particularly not going to work for Americans with ancestry from disparate parts of Europe and even some SSA and Amerindian.

@Hauteville,
People keep forgetting that there actually isn't much difference between Muslim Lebanese and Christian Lebanese, nor that Christian Lebanese also have some SSA, as do the Durze.

As for the rest, nobody knows what happened between the Levant Bronze Age and the Roman Era as far as Judean Jews are concerned, or what happened after, so all this certitude is misplaced. The Jews of Palestine in the Roman Era might well have been Levant Bronze Age "like" (who clustered with Saudis) for all we know, or perhaps were more modern Jordanian like, or more Cypriot like, or whatever. We have to wait and see.

My goodness, if some of you are great with a crystal ball, give us the Lotto numbers. :)

As for the Samaritans, I've suggested using them at times, but they're not a perfect proxy either, as the Jews claimed that they were half "Assyrian" settlers, or at least they claimed half their ancestry was from settlers brought into the area by Assyrians. Of course, who knows if the Judeans picked up some "Babylonian" ancestry as well during their captivity, or some SSA in Egypt, or any number of other scenarios.

As to Xue, I knew what you meant. Xue et al is only the last in a series of academic studies that have attempted to put a percentage on Southern European and Middle Eastern admixture in Ashkenzim.

Harry Ostrer reviews the history of populations genetics with regards to the Jews in his paper, and concludes that numerous studies have shown that "A high degree of European admixture (30–60 %) was observed among Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Italian and Syrian Jews."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3543766/

@Regio,

As I said, guys, as refers to Natufian...

"Some Northwestern Europeans as above are getting 38, 39. I would bet more central European types like central/southern Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, will get 40 or slightly above.

Southern Europeans will get mid-to-high 40s to 50, 51, which makes perfect sense."

Despite it being the life's work of some anthrofora types to draw huge distinctions between Europeans, what are we talking about here? The extremes of Europe in terms of Natufian run from 35 to close to 50. Big whoops...
 
Actually Muslims and Christian Levantines are genetically very similar if you look at the spreadsheets. I think Samaritans are the better proxy though.

You're right. Levantie Muslims and Christians are slightly different because Muslims have a few perecrnt more African ancestry. The Levante ancestors of Jews didn't have this extra African ancestry, so when they are modeled as Levante Muslim+European their European percentage of ancestry is exaggerated.
 
#
PopulationPercent
1
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer44.45
2Natufian35.46
3Ancestral_North_Eurasian17.25
4Ancestral_South_Eurasian2.84


Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
6 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Scottish @ 2.789396
2 English @ 2.877578
3 Czech @ 3.094326
4 Hungarian @ 3.206155
5 French @ 3.803198
6 Ukrainian @ 4.002460
7 Norwegian @ 4.169715
8 Icelandic @ 5.381115
9 Croatian @ 5.458343
10 Europe_LNBA @ 6.254353
11 Spanish @ 8.308710
12 Estonian @ 8.363054
13 Lithuanian @ 9.138882
14 Basque @ 9.191294
15 Romanian @ 9.352397
16 Bulgarian @ 11.122505
17 Russian @ 11.704102
18 Finnish @ 11.865152
19 Steppe_MLBA @ 12.735702
20 Albanian @ 15.874808

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French +50% Scottish @ 2.298908


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sardinian +25% Scottish +25% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 1.307264


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Levant_N + Motala12 + Scottish + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.540532
2 Motala12 + Natufian + Scottish + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.540532
3 English + Levant_N + Motala12 + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.733838
4 English + Motala12 + Natufian + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.733838


I have to say this test seems pretty accurate. It's always interesting to see how much better they can group me using the ancient populations, my guess is because some Americans are just a mix of too many European populations in such varying proportions that using modern groups inst flexible enough.


@Twilight
I'm also surprised how similar our results are considering how your DNAland results had a decent amount more Northwest European than me and I had much more Balkan. I'm guessing the 2.84 percent ASE pulls me southeast a long way. We talked about the Papuan I received in another GedMatch test, but nothing ever showed up in 23andMe or AncestryDNA, I wonder what it actually is. I'm convinced there is something shifting me southward and to the east now since my FTDNA results also gave me 8 percent Mid eastern but also considerably more Scandinavian, I guess some tests try to compensate for it somehow.
 

Natufian would have come into Europe with Anatolian farmers, and also some Copper Age movements, depending on the area in Europe, and also a little bit with Indo-Europeans, given they picked up some "Old Europe" ancestry.

Some Northwestern Europeans are getting 38,39. I would bet more central European types like central/southern Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, will get 40 or slightly above.

Southern Europeans will get mid-to-high 40s to 50, 51, which makes perfect sense.

It's very helpful that he gave this explanation.



agree

thanks
 
My results. This is an impressive test but an important piece it is missing is a CHG/Iran_Neo ancestor. CHG/Iran_Neo wasn't a Natufian+ANE mix. Until we figure out what Basal Eurasian is and what the non-Basal Eurasian side of Stone age Middle Easterners was, I don't fully trust any of these tests that attempt to deceiver that. The numbers are probably mostly correct but the ancestor proxies are definitly not mostly correct. This test is claiming Neolithic Anatolains were Natufian+WHG, which they definitly were not. Maybe they were Natufian-distant relative+WHG-distant relative.

We have an incredible collection of ancient European and Middle Eastern genomes. All modern day West Eurasians can be explained well as a mixture of Paleo/Early Neo West Eurasian genomes. That's how good of a collection we have. ADMIXTURE tests should stick to those ancestors and not try to predicte who the unsampled Upper Paleolithic ancestors were.

There's WHG-like ancestry in all four of the ancestors of modern Westy Eurasians, but that WHG-like ancestor wasn't WHG. WHG of Western Europe was a very drifted population with no one like them anywhere else in the world. The huge WHG numbers in so many ADMIXTURE tests is decphing. Actual Western European WHG ancestry percentages peak probably at just 15-20% in Lithuania. WHG of Western Europe were essentially wiped out. Most of the WHG-like ancestry in modern Europeans is from EEF and EHG. Over 70% of the ancestor of all Europeans is from Neolithic Anatolia(EEF) and Mesolithic Russia(EHG).

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 15.17
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.77
East_Asian 2.65
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 41.71
Natufian 37.53
Sub_Saharan 2.17


1 71.7% Spanish + 28.3% Russian @ 1.42
2 73.2% Spanish + 26.8% Finnish @ 1.78
3 75.7% Jew_Ashkenazi + 24.3% Motala12 @ 2.28
4 91.5% Hungarian + 8.5% Saharawi @ 2.31
5 60.1% Levant_BA + 39.9% SHG @ 2.33
6 90.6% Hungarian + 9.4% Algerian @ 2.37
7 75.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 24.9% SHG @ 2.4
8 85.7% Spanish + 14.3% Steppe_IA @ 2.51
9 96.5% French + 3.5% Cambodian @ 2.51
10 80.9% Basque + 19.1% Tajik @ 2.55
11 91.7% Hungarian + 8.3% Moroccan @ 2.57
12 95.4% French + 4.6% Somali @ 2.57
13 96.3% French + 3.7% Sherpa @ 2.57
14 69.9% Jew_Tunisian + 30.1% Motala12 @ 2.59
15 96.8% French + 3.2% Tibetan @ 2.59
16 96.1% French + 3.9% Kusunda @ 2.59
17 60.9% Levant_BA + 39.1% Motala12 @ 2.6
18 97% French + 3% Ami @ 2.61
19 96.9% French + 3.1% Mongola @ 2.62
20 97% French + 3% Han @ 2.62

#PopulationPercent
1CHG_EEF43.92
2EHG18.47
3SHG_WHG15.94
4ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC12.28
5IRAN_NEOLITHIC4.65
6NATUFIAN3.29
7ANCESTRAL_INDIAN1.25
8SUB_SAHARAN0.17
9SIBERIAN0.03
Neolithic K13 admixture (2nd most recent)
-------------------------------------------
Eurasia K6 (recent)

#PopulationPercent
1West_European_Hunter_Gartherer45.4
2Natufian35.22
3Ancestral_North_Eurasian


After doing some playing around with mathematics it seems that my "Neolithic K13 (CHG-EEF + SHG-WHG + Anatolia_Neolithic + Iran_Neolithic + Natufian + Ancestral_Indian = 81.63%) is not too far apart from my Gedrosia K6 (WEHG + Natufian = 80.62)

With only 1% differnce between the two results, it seems like GedrosiaDNA hardly changed any percentage, but instead the company simplified his samples.


But yes, if Neo-Iran/ENF samples are added back into the mix perhaps we'll see some changes to our genomes. :)
19.17
 
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I wouldn't be so sure of that angela. The max difference between europeans of the extreme south and north could be greater than 15 percent.some of the whg that extreme Southern Europeans get could be exclusive to them and not show up at all in northerners. I could apply that to the Turkish as well.
 
Natufian according to the description of the calculator was implied by EEF.

[FONT=&quot]Natufian: This was an Epipaleolithic culture that existed from 12,500 to 9,500 BC in the area of Israel. They were derived about 50% from an original Out-of-Africa population, referred to as Basal Eurasians. If you are a European and show Natufian admixture, this does not imply that Natufians interacted with your ancestors. All it means is that Natufian like admixture was mediated to you via intermediaries, such as the early European Farmers from the Near East.[/FONT]
 
Davef:I wouldn't be so sure of that angela. The max difference between europeans of the extreme south and north could be greater than 15 percent.some of the whg that extreme Southern Europeans get could be exclusive to them and not show up at all in northerners. I could apply that to the Turkish as well.

What?

We don't have to guess what the WHG score in this calculator is based on, because the creator has put it into black and white. It's based on the following collection of ancient genomes.


Western European Hunter Gatherers (WHG): This component maximizes in ancient samples known as Villabruna, La Brana, Bichon, Loschbour, and Hungarian KO1, also collectively referred to as WHG.



 
FTDNA:

Population

Ancestral_North_Eurasian 8.93
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.69
East_Asian -
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 9.59
Natufian 26.03
Sub_Saharan 54.76
 
#
PopulationPercent
1
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer44.45
2Natufian35.46
3Ancestral_North_Eurasian17.25
4Ancestral_South_Eurasian2.84


Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
6 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Scottish @ 2.789396
2 English @ 2.877578
3 Czech @ 3.094326
4 Hungarian @ 3.206155
5 French @ 3.803198
6 Ukrainian @ 4.002460
7 Norwegian @ 4.169715
8 Icelandic @ 5.381115
9 Croatian @ 5.458343
10 Europe_LNBA @ 6.254353
11 Spanish @ 8.308710
12 Estonian @ 8.363054
13 Lithuanian @ 9.138882
14 Basque @ 9.191294
15 Romanian @ 9.352397
16 Bulgarian @ 11.122505
17 Russian @ 11.704102
18 Finnish @ 11.865152
19 Steppe_MLBA @ 12.735702
20 Albanian @ 15.874808

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French +50% Scottish @ 2.298908


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sardinian +25% Scottish +25% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 1.307264


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Levant_N + Motala12 + Scottish + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.540532
2 Motala12 + Natufian + Scottish + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.540532
3 English + Levant_N + Motala12 + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.733838
4 English + Motala12 + Natufian + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.733838


I have to say this test seems pretty accurate. It's always interesting to see how much better they can group me using the ancient populations, my guess is because some Americans are just a mix of too many European populations in such varying proportions that using modern groups inst flexible enough.


@Twilight
I'm also surprised how similar our results are considering how your DNAland results had a decent amount more Northwest European than me and I had much more Balkan. I'm guessing the 2.84 percent ASE pulls me southeast a long way. We talked about the Papuan I received in another GedMatch test, but nothing ever showed up in 23andMe or AncestryDNA, I wonder what it actually is. I'm convinced there is something shifting me southward and to the east now since my FTDNA results also gave me 8 percent Mid eastern but also considerably more Scandinavian, I guess some tests try to compensate for it somehow.


Thats interesting, I know the Thracians settled in Britannia but I doubt that the Armani settlers contributed that much into the British gene pool somewhere but I could be wrong. Other than England's Thracian immigrants, I'm not sure how else SE Europeans made it to the Isles or Germany. Perhaps thenew DNa coming up will help shed some light on the matter :)
 
Promenade,

There's no way in hell you can be 1/4 levant neolithic. You seem to score like other full blooded northerners in the thread but the calculator thinks 1/4 of your heritage is flat out Lebanese.
 
Thats interesting, I know the Thracians settled in Britannia but I doubt that the Armani settlers contributed that much into the British gene pool somewhere but I could be wrong. Other than England's Thracian immigrants, I'm not sure how else SE Europeans made it to the Isles or Germany. Perhaps thenew DNa coming up will help shed some light on the matter :)

Romans!!! Remember the paper with Roman Gladiator(or whatever) genomes from Britain, one of them was born in the Levant. The Roman empire is a great candidate as to what pulls England slightly south of Scotland and Ireland. Also France is an outlier in Northern Europe. They're pulled much further south than England is. Southern France is similar to Spain, but the rest of France can fit as an Italian+North European mix.
 
Promenade,

There's no way in hell you can be 1/4 levant neolithic. You seem to score like other full blooded northerners in the thread but the calculator thinks 1/4 of your heritage is flat out Lebanese.

40% or more of the ancestry of his ancestry is from people closely related to the Levant Neolithic(Anatolia Neolithic). If you read discussion on this forum you should know this. Modern day Lebanese in analysis I've seen are like 60% Levant Neolithic. Levant Neolithic wasn't the same as modern Levanties.
 
Oh right, I remember you saying in your d stat thread that levant neo is very close to Anatolian, it just has a bit more sub Saharan.

Also in response to people from England having roman heritage, Winston Churchill looks italian :)
 
Thats interesting, I know the Thracians settled in Britannia but I doubt that the Armani settlers contributed that much into the British gene pool somewhere but I could be wrong. Other than England's Thracian immigrants, I'm not sure how else SE Europeans made it to the Isles or Germany. Perhaps thenew DNa coming up will help shed some light on the matter :)

I dont have any ancestors from England though and my AncestryDNA test claims I have >1 percent ancestry from Great Britain so I dont think it has anything to do with Thracians, but I appreciate the response I did not know they reached England. Also Thracian's would have brought more EEF ancestry which I am relatively low in according to this test, I'm wondering where the ASE is from.



Promenade,

There's no way in hell you can be 1/4 levant neolithic. You seem to score like other full blooded northerners in the thread but the calculator thinks 1/4 of your heritage is flat out Lebanese.

Davef it makes complete sense, look at all the people with North European ancestry here. They all score Natufian between 30-40 percent. Northern Europeans derive around 3/8's of their ancestry from the EFF and Natufian is essentially filling in for them in this test. The 4 population approximation uses ancient groups to help make sense of your ancestry, Levant Neolithic is filling in for about 1/4 of my EEF derived ancestry in their approximation. Meanwhile Motala12 is filling in for much of the WHG ancestry and Steppe-eneolithic for Yamnaya. Of course EEF=/=Natufian=/=EEF but I'm generalizing here.

Also fire haired is correct when he says Levant Neolithic is not the same as the modern Lebanese. There was a Bronze age change in the area that shifted ancestry in the Levant away from the Neolithic Levantines. When I glance at PCA's, Levant Neolithic seems to group much more closely to various ethnic jewish populations.



Romans!!! Remember the paper with Roman Gladiator(or whatever) genomes from Britain, one of them was born in the Levant. The Roman empire is a great candidate as to what pulls England slightly south of Scotland and Ireland. Also France is an outlier in Northern Europe. They're pulled much further south than England is. Southern France is similar to Spain, but the rest of France can fit as an Italian+North European mix.

I remember this, but if we are talking about my case in particular then it wouldn't make sense since I dont have ancestry from England. I also have a relatively low amount of Natufian and the highest amount of WHG out of everyone who's posted so far so I dont think it was an EEF population. I'm more curious about where the relativity large amount of ASE I have came from.
 
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Just to reiterate Promenade's point: "Near Eastern" ancestry got to England way before the Romans or the Thracians. I think some of you need to review the major genetics papers of the last couple of years.

The percentage for all northern Europeans for Levant Neolithic in this calculator ranges from 30-40%. It stands forthe Neolithic farmer ancestry of the Near East which came into Europe. (Of course then we have the Near Eastern ancestry which came in with the Indo-Europeans) Central Europe probably gets a little higher. The northern Italians seems to be getting 43-44%. Some southern Italians might get 50%.

All perfectly normal and understandable. I've been saying the same things since dna forums when there was no ancient dna, on23andme forums, and now here, and some of you still don't get it.

Some of you also are reading these calculators far too literally. If someone gets Spanish and Armenoid, for example, it doesn't mean they recently had an ancestor from Iran or Armenia. Really, people.

@Fire-Haired,
There's a lot of variation in France which hasn't been explored because of the restrictions on genetic testing, although generally it's certainly true that France plots south of England. From everything I've seen I wouldn't be at all surprised if the eastern French aren't very similar to the western Germans. The Bretons are probably indeed very close to the English, perhaps the people of Normandie as well. The only "southern" French samples we have are from southwestern France, although given the known history I would think the people from around Perpignan also would veer toward Spaniards. We don't know about southeastern France but I would think they might be a little close to Ligurians and Piemontese. So, it depends.

As to why England shifted south, it might have something to do with Roman rule, but we have to get some "Roman" ydna to see. Also, from the time of the Conqueror on, French men came into England from various provinces of France to make their fortune. We think in nation state terms. They didn't. I doubt that a nobleman like Enguerrand de Coucy would have comprehended what someone was talking about if he were asked was he English or French. He was a nobleman who owned property in both countries. The same was true of many aristocrats, who would have brought lesser lords and retainers from many parts of France. French born "English" queens likewise brought retainers from various parts of France.

This is an excellent book on Enguerrand de Coucy by Barbara Tuchman:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/568236.A_Distant_Mirror

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enguerrand_VII,_Lord_of_Coucy

Eleanor of Provence, Queen of England:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Provence

She was much hated by Londoners because of the many "Savoyards" she brought with her.

These are just illustrations of the larger phenomenon.

Oh, as to Levant Neolithic, please show me how you arrive at the conclusion that it has more SSA than Natufians. The gene flow into the Levant after the Natufian era seems to be from the Anatolian Neolithic according to your fellow modelers. The Levant Bronze Age is another story.

@Promenade,
When you say relatively large ASE percentage, to whom are you comparing yourself, and how much larger is it? Given the admixture that went into the steppe populations and then into Europe, some trace amounts shouldn't be surprising. On 23andme I consistently got .2 Korean, my only non-west Eurasian admixture, and I think it's also probably a stand in for some East Eurasian that came in with the Indo-Europeans, particularly given my mtDna U2e.

I suppose there's always a chance of some unknown gypsy or South Asian heritage, but it would just as well be chance inheritance from Indo-Europeans.


@davef,
I'm trying to think if I've ever heard anything more absurd in terms of phenotype analysis than Winston Churchill looking Italian as a first choice...no, I haven't. Have you ever set foot in either Italy or England? I assure you this facial structure is more common in England and Germany than in Italy...too "soft". That isn't to say that there aren't some people in Italy who have it.

churchill--getty_2547624b.jpg
 
@Promenade,
When you say relatively large ASE percentage, to whom are you comparing yourself, and how much larger is it? Given the admixture that went into the steppe populations and then into Europe, some trace amounts shouldn't be surprising. On 23andme I consistently got .2 Korean, my only non-west Eurasian admixture, and I think it's also probably a stand in for some East Eurasian that came in with the Indo-Europeans, particularly given my mtDna U2e.

I suppose there's always a chance of some unknown gypsy or South Asian heritage, but it would just as well be chance inheritance from Indo-Europeans.

I would say a relatively large percentage of ASE compared to the average North European. I also have the highest ASE percentage out of everyone here so far at 2.84 percent, meanwhile not one other person has exceeded more than 1 percent here other than me. 23andMe and AncestryDNA dont show any hints of it, they seem completely normal but FTDNA and DNAland have something pulling me south east. I receive 8 percent Anatolian And Caucuses from FTDNA and 23 percent Balkan on DNAland when neither show up at all in 23andMe and AncestryDNA. My guess is the ASE is shifting me for these tests.
 
@Angela
I saw a few photos of him and it was probably just his expressions in those pics that made him look "Italian" maybe not full blooded, about 1/4 Italian (southern) and 3/4 British to be safe.
I wasn't taking the Oracle literally, btw.

@Promenade,
You certainly do seem a lot more east Mediterranean than expected.
 
@Angela
Also yeah in reference to the pic you posted I never would've guessed him as Mediterranean (spanish, sardinian, italian, greek, various islands or Levantine) and wouldve definitely guessed him as north european.
 
Can somebody explain this to me because it makes no sense....I just read about a basque who according to various calculators came out as half sardinian half egyptian, another one guessed him as jewish (sephardic), another one guessed him as some west asian group (Turkish i guess) and in this calculator he scored 67 percent western hunter gatherer, 17 percent Natufian, and 16 percent ANE. For someone who is as southern as "1/2 Egyptian 1/2 Sardinian" his hunter gatherer score is awfully high (higher than most if not all north euros by a lot) and his Natufian score is puny, about half of what an Irish person would get. I'm not taking the oracles literally but anyone who gets .5 sardinian .5 egyptian should score Natufian through the roof.
 

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