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Thread: Ancient Eurasia K6

  1. #1
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Ancient Eurasia K6

    Please discuss about new GEDmatch calculator.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-PF1975
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    Ashkenazi Jewish
    Country: Australia



    23andme

    Population
    Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.83
    Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.34
    East_Asian 0.78
    West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 25.61
    Natufian 49.46
    Sub_Saharan 2.98


    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Jew_Ashkenazi 3.39
    2 Italian_South 4.04
    3 Jew_Moroccan 4.23
    4 Sicilian 4.38
    5 Jew_Libyan 6.44
    6 Jew_Tunisian 6.56
    7 Greek 7.1
    8 Armenia_ChL 7.87
    9 Albanian 8.88
    10 Cypriot 9.28
    11 Turkish 11.03
    12 Lebanese 12.16
    13 Druze 12.67
    14 Syrian 12.86
    15 Bulgarian 13.03
    16 Jordanian 13.1
    17 Palestinian 13.64
    18 Adygei 14.69
    19 Romanian 14.97
    20 Kumyk 15.06

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 57.9% Albanian + 42.1% Lebanese @ 1.06
    2 63.3% Greek + 36.7% Lebanese @ 1.07
    3 66% Greek + 34% Palestinian @ 1.08
    4 65.1% Greek + 34.9% Jordanian @ 1.26
    5 75.4% Sicilian + 24.6% Syrian @ 1.28
    6 64.7% Greek + 35.3% Syrian @ 1.28
    7 59.3% Albanian + 40.7% Syrian @ 1.3
    8 81.2% Sicilian + 18.8% Jew_iraqi @ 1.45
    9 77.3% Italian_South + 22.7% Syrian @ 1.49
    10 90.2% Jew_Moroccan + 9.8% Steppe_EMBA @ 1.49
    11 86.2% Italian_South + 13.8% Yemeni @ 1.52
    12 74.6% Sicilian + 25.4% Lebanese @ 1.53
    13 85.2% Sicilian + 14.8% Kurd_F @ 1.55
    14 85.6% Jew_Ashkenazi + 14.4% Lezgin @ 1.55
    15 81% Sicilian + 19% Assyrian @ 1.57
    16 90.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 9.9% Iran_N @ 1.59
    17 60.8% Albanian + 39.2% Palestinian @ 1.6
    18 92.9% Jew_Ashkenazi + 7.1% CHG @ 1.6
    19 86.4% Sicilian + 13.6% Iran_LN @ 1.61
    20 85.5% Jew_Ashkenazi + 14.5% Georgian @ 1.62






    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Jew_iraqi +50% Spanish @ 1.913844


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Cypriot +25% Icelandic +25% Palestinian @ 0.754884


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Cypriot + Czech + Jew_Moroccan + Lebanese @ 0.728083
    2 English + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Moroccan + Jew_Tunisian @ 0.753863
    3 Cypriot + Cypriot + Icelandic + Palestinian @ 0.754884
    4 Cypriot + English + Jew_Moroccan + Lebanese @ 0.763523
    5 French + Georgian + Jew_Libyan + Jew_Tunisian @ 0.772481
    6 Georgian + Jew_Moroccan + Jew_Moroccan + Spanish @ 0.797972
    7 Czech + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Libyan + Jew_Moroccan @ 0.805472
    8 Cypriot + Europe_LNBA + Jew_Moroccan + Jew_Yemenite @ 0.808124
    9 Croatian + Cypriot + Italian_South + Jordanian @ 0.808888
    10 Czech + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Moroccan + Jew_Tunisian @ 0.822470
    11 Greek + Italian_South + Italian_South + Syrian @ 0.830846
    12 BedouinA + Cypriot + Cypriot + Icelandic @ 0.834970
    13 BedouinA + Italian_South + Lezgin + Sardinian @ 0.841344
    14 French + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Moroccan + Jew_Moroccan @ 0.842017
    15 Druze + Icelandic + Italian_South + Jew_Yemenite @ 0.844557
    16 Cypriot + Cypriot + Icelandic + Jordanian @ 0.845798
    17 English + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Libyan + Jew_Moroccan @ 0.845995
    18 French + Georgian + Jew_Libyan + Jew_Libyan @ 0.862185
    19 Basque + BedouinA + Georgian + Italian_South @ 0.874539
    20 Greek + Italian_South + Sicilian + Syrian @ 0.877736





    FTDNA


    Population
    Ancestral_North_Eurasian 21.32
    Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.64
    East_Asian 0.99
    West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 25.73
    Natufian 49.22
    Sub_Saharan 2.10


    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Jew_Ashkenazi 3.73
    2 Italian_South 3.8
    3 Sicilian 4.42
    4 Jew_Moroccan 5.07
    5 Greek 6.76
    6 Armenia_ChL 7.12
    7 Jew_Tunisian 7.34
    8 Jew_Libyan 7.36
    9 Albanian 8.66
    10 Cypriot 9.34
    11 Turkish 10.57
    12 Lebanese 12.5
    13 Bulgarian 12.71
    14 Druze 12.76
    15 Syrian 13.24
    16 Jordanian 13.63
    17 Adygei 14.09
    18 Palestinian 14.2
    19 Kumyk 14.44
    20 Romanian 14.65

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 84.2% Sicilian + 15.8% Kurd_F @ 0.77
    2 80% Sicilian + 20% Georgian @ 0.83
    3 52% Jew_iraqi + 48% Spanish @ 0.94
    4 85.6% Sicilian + 14.4% Iran_LN @ 0.97
    5 82.9% Jew_Ashkenazi + 17.1% Lezgin @ 1.05
    6 65.1% Greek + 34.9% Lebanese @ 1.08
    7 63.1% Druze + 36.9% French @ 1.08
    8 53.5% Druze + 46.5% Romanian @ 1.09
    9 85.3% Sicilian + 14.7% Iran_ChL @ 1.11
    10 86.5% Sicilian + 13.5% Iranian_Lori @ 1.11
    11 82.6% Sicilian + 17.4% Iranian @ 1.12
    12 50.1% Bulgarian + 49.9% Druze @ 1.13
    13 81.5% Jew_Ashkenazi + 18.5% Chechen @ 1.18
    14 80.2% Sicilian + 19.8% Assyrian @ 1.22
    15 86.9% Italian_South + 13.1% Iranian_Shirazi @ 1.23
    16 83.5% Sicilian + 16.5% Kurd_C @ 1.24
    17 85.2% Sicilian + 14.8% Iranian_Mazandarani @ 1.25
    18 80.5% Sicilian + 19.5% Azeri @ 1.27
    19 59.3% Druze + 40.7% Croatian @ 1.29
    20 80.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 19.9% Adygei @ 1.3






    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Bulgarian +50% Druze @ 1.092285


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Cypriot +25% Icelandic +25% Lebanese @ 0.538984


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Cypriot + Druze + Jew_Moroccan + Ukrainian @ 0.383436
    2 Cypriot + Druze + Jew_Moroccan + Norwegian @ 0.497999
    3 Croatian + Cypriot + Italian_South + Syrian @ 0.532939
    4 Cypriot + Cypriot + Icelandic + Lebanese @ 0.538984
    5 Hungarian + Italian_South + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Tunisian @ 0.556780
    6 Cypriot + Cypriot + Lebanese + Lithuanian @ 0.562817
    7 Greek + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Tunisian + Romanian @ 0.583310
    8 Levant_BA + Lezgin + Sicilian + Spanish @ 0.584336
    9 Italian_South + Lezgin + Sardinian + Syrian @ 0.599485
    10 Cypriot + Cypriot + Lithuanian + Palestinian @ 0.616808
    11 Albanian + Bulgarian + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Moroccan @ 0.632952
    12 Cypriot + Druze + Europe_LNBA + Jew_Tunisian @ 0.648844
    13 Cypriot + Greek + Romanian + Syrian @ 0.656249
    14 Bulgarian + Georgian + Jew_Yemenite + Spanish @ 0.656985
    15 Cypriot + Cypriot + Europe_LNBA + Lebanese @ 0.665471
    16 Albanian + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Tunisian + Romanian @ 0.671159
    17 French + Georgian + Jew_Moroccan + Jew_Tunisian @ 0.694862
    18 Jew_iraqi + Levant_BA + Lithuanian + Sicilian @ 0.698454
    19 Cypriot + Druze + Jew_Tunisian + Norwegian @ 0.701543
    20 Albanian + Albanian + Georgian + Jew_Libyan @ 0.705270



  3. #3
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Are you full ashkenazi?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Are you full ashkenazi?
    As far as I can tell, why?

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    Ethnic group
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    Because as always Southern Italians, Sicilians and Greeks are very close with fully Ashkenazis.

    1 Jew_Ashkenazi 3.73
    2 Italian_South 3.8
    3 Sicilian 4.42

    4 Jew_Moroccan 5.07
    5 Greek 6.76

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L45
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K2b1a

    Ethnic group
    North Sea Islander
    Country: USA - Tennessee



    # Population Percent

    1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.58
    2 Natufian 37.78
    3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.64

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Hungarian @ 2.307435
    2 French @ 2.344309
    3 English @ 3.018956
    4 Czech @ 3.134698
    5 Croatian @ 3.152654
    6 Scottish @ 4.375124
    7 Ukrainian @ 4.858283
    8 Norwegian @ 5.029130
    9 Icelandic @ 6.683311
    10 Spanish @ 6.907271
    11 Romanian @ 7.050628
    12 Europe_LNBA @ 7.796211
    13 Bulgarian @ 8.954685
    14 Basque @ 9.539541
    15 Estonian @ 10.341499
    16 Lithuanian @ 10.867014
    17 Russian @ 13.062507
    18 Albanian @ 13.449377
    19 Steppe_MLBA @ 13.517478
    20 Finnish @ 13.686509

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Croatian +50% English @ 1.122129

    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Icelandic +25% Icelandic +25% Italian_South @ 1.062358

    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Albanian + French + Icelandic + Icelandic @ 0.874256
    2 Albanian + English + English + Icelandic @ 0.899158
    3 French + Greek + Icelandic + Icelandic @ 0.966205
    4 Albanian + Czech + English + Icelandic @ 1.026421
    5 Albanian + Europe_LNBA + French + Icelandic @ 1.029222
    6 Icelandic + Icelandic + Icelandic + Italian_South @ 1.062358
    7 Albanian + English + English + Europe_LNBA @ 1.064542
    8 English + Greek + Icelandic + Icelandic @ 1.078781
    9 Albanian + English + Icelandic + Scottish @ 1.099248
    10 Albanian + English + Icelandic + Norwegian @ 1.106835
    11 Albanian + English + Icelandic + Icelandic @ 1.112116
    12 Albanian + French + Icelandic + Norwegian @ 1.113339
    13 Croatian + Croatian + English + English @ 1.122129
    14 English + English + Greek + Icelandic @ 1.148729
    15 Europe_LNBA + French + Greek + Icelandic @ 1.162690
    16 French + Icelandic + Italian_South + Lithuanian @ 1.168102
    17 English + French + Greek + Lithuanian @ 1.175619
    18 English + English + English + Romanian @ 1.176878
    19 Albanian + English + French + Lithuanian @ 1.177063
    20 Bulgarian + English + English + English @ 1.186208

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @John Doe and Hauteville

    This is interesting, don't you think?

    "2 63.3% Greek + 36.7% Lebanese @ 1.07
    3 66% Greek + 34% Palestinian @ 1.08
    4 65.1% Greek + 34.9% Jordanian @ 1.26
    5 75.4% Sicilian + 24.6% Syrian @ 1.28"

    That 60/40 southern European/Levant split has been proposed in academic analyses too.

    Those are darn good fits.

    With FTDNA you get the same split, and also the reverse, which, again, some academicians have proposed.

    "
    6 65.1% Greek + 34.9% Lebanese @ 1.08
    7 63.1% Druze + 36.9% French @ 1.08"

    This seems better than others I've seen, but is there any reason why he has no North Italian or Tuscan reference samples? It's useless like this for us.



    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152-Z56-BY3957
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

    Ethnic group
    15/32 British, 5/32 German, 9/64 Irish, 1/8 Scots Gaelic, 5/64 French, 1/32 Welsh
    Country: USA - Washington



    Not bad, although it looks like GedrosiaDNA left out ENF samples. :)

    Ancient Eurasia K6 Oracle results:

    gedrosia K6 Oracle

    Kit M174504

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 45.4
    2 Natufian 35.22
    3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 19.17
    4 Sub_Saharan 0.2

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Czech 1.26
    2 English 1.34
    3 Scottish 1.89
    4 Norwegian 2.1
    5 Ukrainian 2.73
    6 Hungarian 3.49
    7 Icelandic 3.61
    8 French 4.4
    9 Europe_LNBA 4.71
    10 Croatian 6.05
    11 Estonian 7.43
    12 Lithuanian 7.82
    13 Spanish 9.61
    14 Romanian 9.98
    15 Basque 10.24
    16 Russian 11.08
    17 Finnish 11.41
    18 Steppe_MLBA 11.74
    19 Bulgarian 11.77
    20 Albanian 16.53

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 88% Basque + 12% EHG @ 0.52
    2 98.4% English + 1.6% EHG @ 0.62
    3 86.4% Icelandic + 13.6% Italian_South @ 0.63
    4 98.9% English + 1.1% AG2 @ 0.67
    5 98.9% English + 1.1% AG3 @ 0.67
    6 98.9% English + 1.1% MA1 @ 0.67
    7 83.5% Icelandic + 16.5% Greek @ 0.7
    8 96.2% English + 3.8% Steppe_EMBA @ 0.73
    9 90.4% Icelandic + 9.6% Cypriot @ 0.73
    10 82.4% Icelandic + 17.6% Albanian @ 0.74
    11 85.7% Icelandic + 14.3% Sicilian @ 0.77
    12 92.3% Icelandic + 7.7% Levant_BA @ 0.82
    13 91.7% English + 8.3% Steppe_MLBA @ 0.83
    14 88.8% Icelandic + 11.2% Jew_Moroccan @ 0.86
    15 91.3% Icelandic + 8.7% Druze @ 0.9
    16 86.9% Icelandic + 13.1% Jew_Ashkenazi @ 0.91
    17 92.3% Icelandic + 7.7% Jew_Yemenite @ 0.93
    18 97.4% English + 2.6% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.94
    19 66.6% English + 33.4% Norwegian @ 0.96
    20 69.7% Norwegian + 30.3% French @ 0.96

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @John Doe and Hauteville

    This is interesting, don't you think?

    "2 63.3% Greek + 36.7% Lebanese @ 1.07
    3 66% Greek + 34% Palestinian @ 1.08
    4 65.1% Greek + 34.9% Jordanian @ 1.26
    5 75.4% Sicilian + 24.6% Syrian @ 1.28"

    That 60/40 southern European/Levant split has been proposed in academic analyses too.

    Those are darn good fits.

    With FTDNA you get the same split, and also the reverse, which, again, some academicians have proposed.

    "
    6 65.1% Greek + 34.9% Lebanese @ 1.08
    7 63.1% Druze + 36.9% French @ 1.08"

    This seems better than others I've seen, but is there any reason why he has no North Italian or Tuscan reference samples? It's useless like this for us.

    I've also noticed that I almost always get these type of results. As for the lack of Tuscan or North Italian samples, I don't know why that is, I think other calculators have Tuscan and N Italian samples though.

  10. #10
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    Yeah it did a great job figuring you out. Also, why are Northern Europeans getting 35 percent Natufian?

  11. #11
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @John Doe and Hauteville

    This is interesting, don't you think?

    "2 63.3% Greek + 36.7% Lebanese @ 1.07
    3 66% Greek + 34% Palestinian @ 1.08
    4 65.1% Greek + 34.9% Jordanian @ 1.26
    5 75.4% Sicilian + 24.6% Syrian @ 1.28"

    That 60/40 southern European/Levant split has been proposed in academic analyses too.

    Those are darn good fits.

    With FTDNA you get the same split, and also the reverse, which, again, some academicians have proposed.

    "
    6 65.1% Greek + 34.9% Lebanese @ 1.08
    7 63.1% Druze + 36.9% French @ 1.08"

    This seems better than others I've seen, but is there any reason why he has no North Italian or Tuscan reference samples? It's useless like this for us.

    Yeah it looks like the recent study of Xue et al. Anyway there is the lack of many populations for his Oracle, not just Tuscans and North Italians but even Portuguese, Germans, Austrians, Islander and Anatolian Greeks and other Euro ethnicities.

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    If you ran the program, you must have seen this:

    "For a discussion on the various ancient genomes used here, please refer to the following papers:
    1. The genetic structure of the world's first farmers, Lazaridis et al, 2016. http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311
    2. The genetic history of Ice Age Europe, Fu et al, 2016, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture17993.html
    3. Early Neolithic genomes from the eastern Fertile Crescent, Broushaki et al, 2016, http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...cience.aaf7943<


    Clones of various ancients were utilized to help form some of the clusters, and make results somewhat consistent with results obtained using formal methods such as qpAdm.


    A brief description of the calculator's components:


    Ancestral North Eurasian (ANE): Upper-Paleolithic genomes from the Lake Baikal region of Siberia, identified as Malta, Afontogora 2, and Afontogora 3, dated to 17 to 24 kya, when Mammoths roamed the area, form the ANE cluster.


    Ancestral South Eurasian (ASE): This component is maximized in the Andamanese and Australian Aboriginals. These Eastern non-Africans are believed to have split from other out-of-African populations over 50 kya, and some related populations (ASI), are believed to have played a role in the ethnogenisis of South Asians.


    E Asian: This component is maximized in groups such as the Han and Dai.


    Natufian: This was an Epipaleolithic culture that existed from 12,500 to 9,500 BC in the area of Israel. They were derived about 50% from an original Out-of-Africa population, referred to as Basal Eurasians. If you are a European and show Natufian admixture, this does not imply that Natufians interacted with your ancestors. All it means is that Natufian like admixture was mediated to you via intermediaries, such as the early European Farmers from the Near East.


    Western European Hunter Gatherers (WHG): This component maximizes in ancient samples known as Villabruna, La Brana, Bichon, Loschbour, and Hungarian KO1, also collectively referred to as WHG.


    Sub-Saharan: Various African populations such as Yoruba and Esan were used to source the allele frequencies for this component."

    So, ANE would have come to you with EHG, CHG in both Anatolians and Indo-Europeans, etc.

    Natufian would have come into Europe with Anatolian farmers, and also some Copper Age movements, depending on the area in Europe, and also a little bit with Indo-Europeans, given they picked up some "Old Europe" ancestry.

    Some Northwestern Europeans are getting 38,39. I would bet more central European types like central/southern Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, will get 40 or slightly above.

    Southern Europeans will get mid-to-high 40s to 50, 51, which makes perfect sense.

    It's very helpful that he gave this explanation.



  13. #13
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    That makes sense, thanks!
    Oh and hauteville + angela, jews are .5 Levantine .35 south euro .15 west and euro by the Xue study, not 60-40 south euro-Levantine. Sorry for digressing from the topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you ran the program, you must have seen this:

    "For a discussion on the various ancient genomes used here, please refer to the following papers:
    1. The genetic structure of the world's first farmers, Lazaridis et al, 2016. http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311
    2. The genetic history of Ice Age Europe, Fu et al, 2016, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture17993.html
    3. Early Neolithic genomes from the eastern Fertile Crescent, Broushaki et al, 2016, http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...cience.aaf7943<


    Clones of various ancients were utilized to help form some of the clusters, and make results somewhat consistent with results obtained using formal methods such as qpAdm.


    A brief description of the calculator's components:


    Ancestral North Eurasian (ANE): Upper-Paleolithic genomes from the Lake Baikal region of Siberia, identified as Malta, Afontogora 2, and Afontogora 3, dated to 17 to 24 kya, when Mammoths roamed the area, form the ANE cluster.


    Ancestral South Eurasian (ASE): This component is maximized in the Andamanese and Australian Aboriginals. These Eastern non-Africans are believed to have split from other out-of-African populations over 50 kya, and some related populations (ASI), are believed to have played a role in the ethnogenisis of South Asians.


    E Asian: This component is maximized in groups such as the Han and Dai.


    Natufian: This was an Epipaleolithic culture that existed from 12,500 to 9,500 BC in the area of Israel. They were derived about 50% from an original Out-of-Africa population, referred to as Basal Eurasians. If you are a European and show Natufian admixture, this does not imply that Natufians interacted with your ancestors. All it means is that Natufian like admixture was mediated to you via intermediaries, such as the early European Farmers from the Near East.


    Western European Hunter Gatherers (WHG): This component maximizes in ancient samples known as Villabruna, La Brana, Bichon, Loschbour, and Hungarian KO1, also collectively referred to as WHG.


    Sub-Saharan: Various African populations such as Yoruba and Esan were used to source the allele frequencies for this component."

    So, ANE would have come to you with EHG, CHG in both Anatolians and Indo-Europeans, etc.

    Natufian would have come into Europe with Anatolian farmers, and also some Copper Age movements, depending on the area in Europe, and also a little bit with Indo-Europeans, given they picked up some "Old Europe" ancestry.

    Some Northwestern Europeans are getting 38,39. I would bet more central European types like central/southern Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, will get 40 or slightly above.

    Southern Europeans will get mid-to-high 40s to 50, 51, which makes perfect sense.

    It's very helpful that he gave this explanation.



    What about Mesolithic Anatolian/Zagros Mountain tribes, are they included into the Natufian samples?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @John Doe and Hauteville

    This is interesting, don't you think?

    "2 63.3% Greek + 36.7% Lebanese @ 1.07
    3 66% Greek + 34% Palestinian @ 1.08
    4 65.1% Greek + 34.9% Jordanian @ 1.26
    5 75.4% Sicilian + 24.6% Syrian @ 1.28"

    That 60/40 southern European/Levant split has been proposed in academic analyses too.

    Those are darn good fits.

    With FTDNA you get the same split, and also the reverse, which, again, some academicians have proposed.

    "
    6 65.1% Greek + 34.9% Lebanese @ 1.08
    7 63.1% Druze + 36.9% French @ 1.08"

    This seems better than others I've seen, but is there any reason why he has no North Italian or Tuscan reference samples? It's useless like this for us.

    Muslim Levanties are a bad reference for Iron age Jews because they have extra African ancestry. Religious minorities like Druze and Samartians and Christians are better references. Muslims still can work though.

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    The program has pin-pointed myself in the 4 population ...........

    gedrosia K6 Oracle

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Natufian 43.33
    2 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 35.70
    3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.66


    Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
    6 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Bulgarian @ 2.735283
    2 Romanian @ 3.874132
    3 Albanian @ 4.668196
    4 Greek @ 5.597648
    5 Croatian @ 7.277499
    6 Sicilian @ 8.948083
    7 Spanish @ 9.762009
    8 Italian_South @ 10.042373
    9 Hungarian @ 10.336728
    10 French @ 10.653173
    11 Jew_Ashkenazi @ 11.233868
    12 Czech @ 12.551389
    13 English @ 12.764177
    14 Ukrainian @ 13.358443
    15 Scottish @ 13.787315
    16 Norwegian @ 14.155935
    17 Jew_Moroccan @ 15.594926
    18 Armenia_ChL @ 15.976079
    19 Icelandic @ 16.279020
    20 Basque @ 16.574711

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Cypriot +50% Lithuanian @ 1.804555


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% French +25% Georgian +25% Spanish @ 1.297227


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Anatolia_N + EHG + Europe_EN + Europe_EN @ 0.000000
    2 Basque + Georgian + Greek + Icelandic @ 0.914001


    I can stop looking for my ancient ancestors!
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Actually Muslims and Christian Levantines are genetically very similar if you look at the spreadsheets. I think Samaritans are the better proxy though.

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    My results. This is an impressive test but an important piece it is missing is a CHG/Iran_Neo ancestor. CHG/Iran_Neo wasn't a Natufian+ANE mix. Until we figure out what Basal Eurasian is and what the non-Basal Eurasian side of Stone age Middle Easterners was, I don't fully trust any of these tests that attempt to deceiver that. The numbers are probably mostly correct but the ancestor proxies are definitly not mostly correct. This test is claiming Neolithic Anatolains were Natufian+WHG, which they definitly were not. Maybe they were Natufian-distant relative+WHG-distant relative.

    We have an incredible collection of ancient European and Middle Eastern genomes. All modern day West Eurasians can be explained well as a mixture of Paleo/Early Neo West Eurasian genomes. That's how good of a collection we have. ADMIXTURE tests should stick to those ancestors and not try to predicte who the unsampled Upper Paleolithic ancestors were.

    There's WHG-like ancestry in all four of the ancestors of modern Westy Eurasians, but that WHG-like ancestor wasn't WHG. WHG of Western Europe was a very drifted population with no one like them anywhere else in the world. The huge WHG numbers in so many ADMIXTURE tests is decphing. Actual Western European WHG ancestry percentages peak probably at just 15-20% in Lithuania. WHG of Western Europe were essentially wiped out. Most of the WHG-like ancestry in modern Europeans is from EEF and EHG. Over 70% of the ancestor of all Europeans is from Neolithic Anatolia(EEF) and Mesolithic Russia(EHG).

    Ancestral_North_Eurasian 15.17
    Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.77
    East_Asian 2.65
    West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 41.71
    Natufian 37.53
    Sub_Saharan 2.17


    1 71.7% Spanish + 28.3% Russian @ 1.42
    2 73.2% Spanish + 26.8% Finnish @ 1.78
    3 75.7% Jew_Ashkenazi + 24.3% Motala12 @ 2.28
    4 91.5% Hungarian + 8.5% Saharawi @ 2.31
    5 60.1% Levant_BA + 39.9% SHG @ 2.33
    6 90.6% Hungarian + 9.4% Algerian @ 2.37
    7 75.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 24.9% SHG @ 2.4
    8 85.7% Spanish + 14.3% Steppe_IA @ 2.51
    9 96.5% French + 3.5% Cambodian @ 2.51
    10 80.9% Basque + 19.1% Tajik @ 2.55
    11 91.7% Hungarian + 8.3% Moroccan @ 2.57
    12 95.4% French + 4.6% Somali @ 2.57
    13 96.3% French + 3.7% Sherpa @ 2.57
    14 69.9% Jew_Tunisian + 30.1% Motala12 @ 2.59
    15 96.8% French + 3.2% Tibetan @ 2.59
    16 96.1% French + 3.9% Kusunda @ 2.59
    17 60.9% Levant_BA + 39.1% Motala12 @ 2.6
    18 97% French + 3% Ami @ 2.61
    19 96.9% French + 3.1% Mongola @ 2.62
    20 97% French + 3% Han @ 2.62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    My results. This is an impressive test but an important piece it is missing is a CHG/Iran_Neo ancestor. CHG/Iran_Neo wasn't a Natufian+ANE mix. Until we figure out what Basal Eurasian is and what the non-Basal Eurasian side of Stone age Middle Easterners was, I don't fully trust any of these tests that attempt to deceiver that. The numbers are probably mostly correct but the ancestor proxies are definitly not mostly correct. This test is claiming Neolithic Anatolains were Natufian+WHG, which they definitly were not. Maybe they were Natufian-distant relative+WHG-distant relative.

    We have an incredible collection of ancient European and Middle Eastern genomes. All modern day West Eurasians can be explained well as a mixture of Paleo/Early Neo West Eurasian genomes. That's how good of a collection we have. ADMIXTURE tests should stick to those ancestors and not try to predicte who the unsampled Upper Paleolithic ancestors were.

    There's WHG-like ancestry in all four of the ancestors of modern Westy Eurasians, but that WHG-like ancestor wasn't WHG. WHG of Western Europe was a very drifted population with no one like them anywhere else in the world. The huge WHG numbers in so many ADMIXTURE tests is decphing. Actual Western European WHG ancestry percentages peak probably at just 15-20% in Lithuania. WHG of Western Europe were essentially wiped out. Most of the WHG-like ancestry in modern Europeans is from EEF and EHG. Over 70% of the ancestor of all Europeans is from Neolithic Anatolia(EEF) and Mesolithic Russia(EHG).

    Ancestral_North_Eurasian 15.17
    Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.77
    East_Asian 2.65
    West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 41.71
    Natufian 37.53
    Sub_Saharan 2.17


    1 71.7% Spanish + 28.3% Russian @ 1.42
    2 73.2% Spanish + 26.8% Finnish @ 1.78
    3 75.7% Jew_Ashkenazi + 24.3% Motala12 @ 2.28
    4 91.5% Hungarian + 8.5% Saharawi @ 2.31
    5 60.1% Levant_BA + 39.9% SHG @ 2.33
    6 90.6% Hungarian + 9.4% Algerian @ 2.37
    7 75.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 24.9% SHG @ 2.4
    8 85.7% Spanish + 14.3% Steppe_IA @ 2.51
    9 96.5% French + 3.5% Cambodian @ 2.51
    10 80.9% Basque + 19.1% Tajik @ 2.55
    11 91.7% Hungarian + 8.3% Moroccan @ 2.57
    12 95.4% French + 4.6% Somali @ 2.57
    13 96.3% French + 3.7% Sherpa @ 2.57
    14 69.9% Jew_Tunisian + 30.1% Motala12 @ 2.59
    15 96.8% French + 3.2% Tibetan @ 2.59
    16 96.1% French + 3.9% Kusunda @ 2.59
    17 60.9% Levant_BA + 39.1% Motala12 @ 2.6
    18 97% French + 3% Ami @ 2.61
    19 96.9% French + 3.1% Mongola @ 2.62
    20 97% French + 3% Han @ 2.62
    Your oracle results don't make sense

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    Here we go.

    Italian (north)

    Population - Father's / Mother's / Mine - 23andMe / Mine - FTDNA

    Ancestral_North_Eurasian - 18.51 / 19.49 / 20.75 / 20.52
    Ancestral_South_Eurasian - 1.00 / 0 / 0 / 0
    East_Asian - 0 / 0.11 / 0 / 0
    West_European_Hunter_Gartherer - 35.72 / 37.37 / 34.63 / 35.10
    Natufian - 44.78 / 42.46 / 44.53 / 44.38
    Sub_Saharan - 0 / 0.57 / 0.08 / 0

    1 Bulgarian 2.99 / Romanian 2.16 / Albanian 3.57 / Bulgarian 3.45
    2 Albanian / Bulgarian / Bulgarian / Albanian
    3 Romanian / Croatian / Greek / Greek
    4 Greek / Albanian / Romanian / Romanian
    5 Croatian / Greek / Sicilian / Sicilian

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    These tests only really work for people with all four ancestors from one place. They're particularly not going to work for Americans with ancestry from disparate parts of Europe and even some SSA and Amerindian.

    @Hauteville,
    People keep forgetting that there actually isn't much difference between Muslim Lebanese and Christian Lebanese, nor that Christian Lebanese also have some SSA, as do the Durze.

    As for the rest, nobody knows what happened between the Levant Bronze Age and the Roman Era as far as Judean Jews are concerned, or what happened after, so all this certitude is misplaced. The Jews of Palestine in the Roman Era might well have been Levant Bronze Age "like" (who clustered with Saudis) for all we know, or perhaps were more modern Jordanian like, or more Cypriot like, or whatever. We have to wait and see.

    My goodness, if some of you are great with a crystal ball, give us the Lotto numbers. :)

    As for the Samaritans, I've suggested using them at times, but they're not a perfect proxy either, as the Jews claimed that they were half "Assyrian" settlers, or at least they claimed half their ancestry was from settlers brought into the area by Assyrians. Of course, who knows if the Judeans picked up some "Babylonian" ancestry as well during their captivity, or some SSA in Egypt, or any number of other scenarios.

    As to Xue, I knew what you meant. Xue et al is only the last in a series of academic studies that have attempted to put a percentage on Southern European and Middle Eastern admixture in Ashkenzim.

    Harry Ostrer reviews the history of populations genetics with regards to the Jews in his paper, and concludes that numerous studies have shown that "A high degree of European admixture (30–60 %) was observed among Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Italian and Syrian Jews."
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3543766/

    @Regio,

    As I said, guys, as refers to Natufian...

    "Some Northwestern Europeans as above are getting 38, 39. I would bet more central European types like central/southern Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, will get 40 or slightly above.

    Southern Europeans will get mid-to-high 40s to 50, 51, which makes perfect sense."

    Despite it being the life's work of some anthrofora types to draw huge distinctions between Europeans, what are we talking about here? The extremes of Europe in terms of Natufian run from 35 to close to 50. Big whoops...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Actually Muslims and Christian Levantines are genetically very similar if you look at the spreadsheets. I think Samaritans are the better proxy though.
    You're right. Levantie Muslims and Christians are slightly different because Muslims have a few perecrnt more African ancestry. The Levante ancestors of Jews didn't have this extra African ancestry, so when they are modeled as Levante Muslim+European their European percentage of ancestry is exaggerated.

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    #
    Population Percent
    1
    West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 44.45
    2 Natufian 35.46
    3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 17.25
    4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.84


    Finished reading population data. 136 populations found.
    6 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Scottish @ 2.789396
    2 English @ 2.877578
    3 Czech @ 3.094326
    4 Hungarian @ 3.206155
    5 French @ 3.803198
    6 Ukrainian @ 4.002460
    7 Norwegian @ 4.169715
    8 Icelandic @ 5.381115
    9 Croatian @ 5.458343
    10 Europe_LNBA @ 6.254353
    11 Spanish @ 8.308710
    12 Estonian @ 8.363054
    13 Lithuanian @ 9.138882
    14 Basque @ 9.191294
    15 Romanian @ 9.352397
    16 Bulgarian @ 11.122505
    17 Russian @ 11.704102
    18 Finnish @ 11.865152
    19 Steppe_MLBA @ 12.735702
    20 Albanian @ 15.874808

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% French +50% Scottish @ 2.298908


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Sardinian +25% Scottish +25% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 1.307264


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Levant_N + Motala12 + Scottish + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.540532
    2 Motala12 + Natufian + Scottish + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.540532
    3 English + Levant_N + Motala12 + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.733838
    4 English + Motala12 + Natufian + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 0.733838


    I have to say this test seems pretty accurate. It's always interesting to see how much better they can group me using the ancient populations, my guess is because some Americans are just a mix of too many European populations in such varying proportions that using modern groups inst flexible enough.


    @Twilight
    I'm also surprised how similar our results are considering how your DNAland results had a decent amount more Northwest European than me and I had much more Balkan. I'm guessing the 2.84 percent ASE pulls me southeast a long way. We talked about the Papuan I received in another GedMatch test, but nothing ever showed up in 23andMe or AncestryDNA, I wonder what it actually is. I'm convinced there is something shifting me southward and to the east now since my FTDNA results also gave me 8 percent Mid eastern but also considerably more Scandinavian, I guess some tests try to compensate for it somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Natufian would have come into Europe with Anatolian farmers, and also some Copper Age movements, depending on the area in Europe, and also a little bit with Indo-Europeans, given they picked up some "Old Europe" ancestry.

    Some Northwestern Europeans are getting 38,39. I would bet more central European types like central/southern Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, will get 40 or slightly above.

    Southern Europeans will get mid-to-high 40s to 50, 51, which makes perfect sense.

    It's very helpful that he gave this explanation.


    agree

    thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    My results. This is an impressive test but an important piece it is missing is a CHG/Iran_Neo ancestor. CHG/Iran_Neo wasn't a Natufian+ANE mix. Until we figure out what Basal Eurasian is and what the non-Basal Eurasian side of Stone age Middle Easterners was, I don't fully trust any of these tests that attempt to deceiver that. The numbers are probably mostly correct but the ancestor proxies are definitly not mostly correct. This test is claiming Neolithic Anatolains were Natufian+WHG, which they definitly were not. Maybe they were Natufian-distant relative+WHG-distant relative.

    We have an incredible collection of ancient European and Middle Eastern genomes. All modern day West Eurasians can be explained well as a mixture of Paleo/Early Neo West Eurasian genomes. That's how good of a collection we have. ADMIXTURE tests should stick to those ancestors and not try to predicte who the unsampled Upper Paleolithic ancestors were.

    There's WHG-like ancestry in all four of the ancestors of modern Westy Eurasians, but that WHG-like ancestor wasn't WHG. WHG of Western Europe was a very drifted population with no one like them anywhere else in the world. The huge WHG numbers in so many ADMIXTURE tests is decphing. Actual Western European WHG ancestry percentages peak probably at just 15-20% in Lithuania. WHG of Western Europe were essentially wiped out. Most of the WHG-like ancestry in modern Europeans is from EEF and EHG. Over 70% of the ancestor of all Europeans is from Neolithic Anatolia(EEF) and Mesolithic Russia(EHG).

    Ancestral_North_Eurasian 15.17
    Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.77
    East_Asian 2.65
    West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 41.71
    Natufian 37.53
    Sub_Saharan 2.17


    1 71.7% Spanish + 28.3% Russian @ 1.42
    2 73.2% Spanish + 26.8% Finnish @ 1.78
    3 75.7% Jew_Ashkenazi + 24.3% Motala12 @ 2.28
    4 91.5% Hungarian + 8.5% Saharawi @ 2.31
    5 60.1% Levant_BA + 39.9% SHG @ 2.33
    6 90.6% Hungarian + 9.4% Algerian @ 2.37
    7 75.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 24.9% SHG @ 2.4
    8 85.7% Spanish + 14.3% Steppe_IA @ 2.51
    9 96.5% French + 3.5% Cambodian @ 2.51
    10 80.9% Basque + 19.1% Tajik @ 2.55
    11 91.7% Hungarian + 8.3% Moroccan @ 2.57
    12 95.4% French + 4.6% Somali @ 2.57
    13 96.3% French + 3.7% Sherpa @ 2.57
    14 69.9% Jew_Tunisian + 30.1% Motala12 @ 2.59
    15 96.8% French + 3.2% Tibetan @ 2.59
    16 96.1% French + 3.9% Kusunda @ 2.59
    17 60.9% Levant_BA + 39.1% Motala12 @ 2.6
    18 97% French + 3% Ami @ 2.61
    19 96.9% French + 3.1% Mongola @ 2.62
    20 97% French + 3% Han @ 2.62
    # Population Percent
    1 CHG_EEF 43.92
    2 EHG 18.47
    3 SHG_WHG 15.94
    4 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 12.28
    5 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 4.65
    6 NATUFIAN 3.29
    7 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 1.25
    8 SUB_SAHARAN 0.17
    9 SIBERIAN 0.03
    Neolithic K13 admixture (2nd most recent)
    -------------------------------------------
    Eurasia K6 (recent)

    # Population Percent
    1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 45.4
    2 Natufian 35.22
    3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian


    After doing some playing around with mathematics it seems that my "Neolithic K13 (CHG-EEF + SHG-WHG + Anatolia_Neolithic + Iran_Neolithic + Natufian + Ancestral_Indian = 81.63%) is not too far apart from my Gedrosia K6 (WEHG + Natufian = 80.62)

    With only 1% differnce between the two results, it seems like GedrosiaDNA hardly changed any percentage, but instead the company simplified his samples.


    But yes, if Neo-Iran/ENF samples are added back into the mix perhaps we'll see some changes to our genomes. :)
    19.17
    Last edited by Twilight; 13-08-16 at 06:33.

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