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Thread: MtDna from the Bronze Age Caucasus, including Maykop

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtue View Post
    I have to ask some of you, but doesn't some of this haplogroup stuff seem a bit far-fetched and outlandish? Some of these theories or explanations are next to impossible. I am not trying to be mean or unproductive, I really mean no offense by this. But...if guys may be debating on small trivial things and theories that might not even be true- You are not getting to the bigger picture, but are wasting your time on mere delusions, and cannot figure out the explanation.

    Everyone is debating on the technical and complex on these on these haplogroup findings, instead of the Occam's Razor. Put all these haplogroups together (mtdna and Y-DNA) with an ancient documented population, and voila. We've already seen Guanche people of Canary Islands before (before Spanish conquest..) and they were fair-skinned Caucasoids? And they carried most of these haplogroups, you guys have mentioned here. They had haplogroup J1 (predominant) and E-M81, and looked as white as a Nord or Greek.

    Attachment 7951
    And yes, I think those are definitely Punic looking tattoos.^ And these people do not look Sub-Saharan African. My own theory, is that there is enough evidence to conclude that there may have been a back-migration of these individuals from Europe into Africa. (pre-Berberids.) (this could also explain why Afro-Asiatic is almost absent from across the Saharan African desert and only North Africa and Near East. -- it was a European language group that thrived better in Northern Africa and died in Europe, come Indo-European invasion.)

    (remember, Afro-Asiatic is just a word, or categorization. Proto-Afro-Asiatic language group may have actually began, in even Southern Europe.)


    (also, nobody seemed to have commented on the fascinating, recent discovery of the oldest clade found of haplogroup U6 being found in Romania, about 35,000 ybp.) While it seemed to have almost virtually disappeared in Europe and is in North Africa. (how the heck did that thing originate there? And these women then become predominant in Northwest Africa???)

    Dienekes-

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2016/05...p-u6-from.html

    Oh (on the contrary, sorry guys, but) it seems there has already been a post on this here, neat-

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Basal-mtDna-U6
    If I recall well there is something strange about Guanche on Canary Islands.
    Don't they have R1b without metallurgy?

    It is the same as

    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Finaly the discussion about M52 seems sterile as Bernard in Anthrogenetica has found that the sample is not showing other mutations related to such haplo.
    some lost atypical branch of the clade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    If I recall well there is something strange about Guanche on Canary Islands.
    Don't they have R1b without metallurgy?

    It is the same as



    some lost atypical branch of the clade.
    yep R1b as well as P* (unknown clades) were found on a sample of Guanche mummies.

    http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009...che-y-dna.html

    WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 5, 2009

    Ancient Guanche Y-DNA


    Via
    Dienekes I have just come to know of a fascinating new research on ancient Y-DNA from the Canary Islands. It is most precious information, as it informs us not only of the patrilineal genetics of the aboriginal Guanches (the matrilineages had already been researched previously) but also, by extension, about the pre-Arabic Y-DNA of North Africa to some extent.

    Rosa Fregel et al., Demographic history of Canary Islands male gene-pool:
    replacement of native lineages by European. BMC Evolutionary Biology, 2009 (provisional PDF - open access).

    The authors managed to extract Y-DNA from 30 individuals, most of them from La Palma, from the pre-colonial period. Additionally 42 individuals from the period of Castilian conquest were also sampled succefully.

    The aboriginal Guanches (n=30) had the following haplogroups (sorted by numerical importance):

    E1b1b1b (M81) - 8 - 26.7%
    E1b1b1a (M78) - 7 - 23.3%
    J1 (M267) - 5 - 16.7%
    R1b1b2 (M269) - 3 - 10%
    K(xP) (M9) - 3 - 10%
    I (M170) - 2 - 6.7%
    E1a (M33) - 1 - 3.3%
    P(xR1) - 1 - 3.3%




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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Virtue,
    Any further off topic posts on this thread will be deleted.


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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtue View Post
    Science has been a joke ever since the Guggenheim Fellowship altered it in the early 20th century.

    You guys know Voltaire, Immanuel Kant, and Karl Schlegel were the original Indo-Europeanists and believed the IE urheimat was in India? Yep, That's the stuff. Stick with those guys, that know their stuff. And the Basque people (whom speak a "proto-language", not a "language".)

    Jewish people to
    ld me personally. Of course this is a joke and I am totally crazy, and nobody would ever believe me.

    I think some new things happened in science after Voltaire and Emmanuel Kant, did they not?
    The Indic I-Ean languages show rather an influence of native languages (dravidian for the most, if I remember well) and local deities upon an Indo-Iranic linguistic and cultural basis than the contrary.
    I-Ean question taken apart, the flow of genetic influences seems rather from Iran to India through Pakistan, since Neolithic, what doesn't discard totally some converse lighter flow into Iran and even Caucasus-Near-East. But it seems to me the first light POSSIBLE genetic influences from (North?) India to Near-East date rather from the great metallurgy rising: exchanges on both directions, I think. The Y-R1a ligneages of today South India came from or across Afghanistan, seemingly. Sooner, Y-J2 and others came the same way. I-Eans could have originated far from Europe, but then rather from South-Central Asia than from genuine India, whatever the lands they crossed to reach other places of Eurasia.
    What doesn't exclude Harappa cultural influences at some times, + the possibility of an South-Iran origin of the true Sumerians (come by sea, supposed). All guess for this last bet. I say that because apparently, the Sumerian language and the Elamite languages could be, not cousins of dravidian, but far isolated "oncles" formed upon a very archaïc proto-language ancestor to dravidian too. The problem is that the few words we have for these ancient languages could be linked to trade more than to intime life, so comprising a lot of loan-words for goods, so not too informative: here I make guesses, because I have not the detail of the concerned studies.
    Concerning basque, I cannot consider it as a proto-language. "proto-" has sense only when compared to subsequent affiliated languages, it has nothing to do with the supposed "level" of languages. Basques of today are not poor lyevolved people unable to ameliorate their language to answer to their needs. And I don't think an ergative or non-ergative language can be the mark of nomadism or sedentism.
    Good afternoon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Virtue,
    Any further off topic posts on this thread will be deleted.
    How is it off-topic? My point was that people are debating on unnecessary content, and whether they realize it or not, these things have already been posted and discussed before..


    I don't believe the Kurgan hypothesis, but it may have truth to it most def, but only half-truths. And if Marija Gimbutas were alive today, she may have even altered it and admitted that it was no longer a relevant theory. Sorry Angela, but I think even she (Marija) herself would admit that. She died in 1994, 22 years ago, long before haplogroup science came to the mainstream. So the theory is obviously outdated, and if she kept up with the current findings she would definitely change her theory to the point where it wouldn't even be called "Kurgan" anymore.


    Marija Gimbutus and Colin Renfrew weren't the first Indo-Europeanists, either. Voltaire, Immanuel Kant and Friedrich Schlegel- and they were the originators of the Indo-European invasion theory and the latter Out-of-India theory. Surprisingly, I have Basque anthropologist and linguist friends who agree, and believe the Out-of-India theory is the most realistic, and that the Kurgan and Anatolian theories for Indo-European invasion makes no sense. (And personally, I don't believe 3 of those aforementioned brilliant minds, can be wrong either.)

    And knowing Basques and their non-IE language, they could tell in an instant whether the mainstream theories (Kurgan or Anatolian) are crap, Angela... They can compare their language to that of the proto-Indo-European one, and instantly know instinctively.

    "What Marija Gimbautus was saying, makes no sense." Maju told me. I showed him how the Basques became R1b and he thought it was a pretty legit theory. But he disagrees with both the Kurgan and Anatolian hypothesis.)




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_..._of_Kaimsthorn


    Also, Colin Renfrew is a member of the British Royal Academy, which is affiliated to the Guggenheim Fellowship. (a group infamous in scientific circles for their poor reputation and of bringing nonsense theories to science, and their debunked pseudo-sciences.) >> So his credibility as an archaeologist is pretty bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I think some new things happened in science after Voltaire and Emmanuel Kant, did they not?
    Yep, some things definitely did happen - forgery by the Guggenheim Fellowship in order to further their pseudoscientific cause.

    Did you know if Voltaire was alive today, he would be jailed for the perspectives and theories he's told about? You're from France and you should know this.

    (He was flirting with Queen Ekaterina II (Catherine II) of Russia for over 20 years by postal mail, I got some of those letters right in the closet in the room right next to me. lol)

    A
    lso, Immanuel Kant was the first man to suggest that the Earth revolved around the Sun, in a time when most Europeans thought it was the exact opposite.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant





    Funny how haplogroup F is pictured in the mid there in India, the biggest bubble. But now this map is outdated and not relevant, apparently. (something tells me some corrupt people aren't telling the truth. And I wouldn't be surprised if haplogroup R1a, R1b and R2 are actually haplogroup F or haplogroup K. Am I suggesting Haplogroup science is fixed by people with an agenda? Conspiracy theory? Yep.)

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Basque has around a 60% of loanwords, mainly from Spanish as I remember, but of course my memory is not the best, so you can check out what said an expert as Voltaire about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Basque has around a 60% of loanwords, mainly from Spanish as I remember, but of course my memory is not the best, so you can check out what said an expert as Voltaire about it.
    Thanks, Berun, you answered in my place. It's true I don't speak Basque language (we say 'Euskareg' in modern breton!) bit I red some simple explanations about ergative language, and I've at hand two basque language booklets and can easily see the modern Castillan borrowed words in it, it doesn't need being a specialist! Without speaking about older loanwords which need deeper knowledge.

    @Virtue: I never said I was an expert of Basque. But I maintain 'ergative' is not the mark of some "primitivity" in language or of some way of life specificity; it seems it could be a kind of "passivity" or "destiny undercoming" philosophy of life, in an intuitive analysis (not too scientific, I avow). Even some accusative languages have some specific syntaxic variants evocating same tendancies, spite their accusative status (Celtics by instance).
    But we are far here from the present thread and that could be kept on in a thread open in Linguistic, even if I lack time to read and answer every matter in this rich forum, helas.
    No offense, of course!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think that I will never visit Louisiana after checking how its hot sun is so hard as to demyelinate so fast a bunch of inner wires.

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    Thanks for sharing, Angela.

    About the absence of autosomal and Y DNA, they may keep it for another paper. mt-DNA is much easier and faster to read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Finaly the discussion about M52 seems sterile as Bernard in Anthrogenetica has found that the sample is not showing other mutations related to such haplo. Well, no surprise if the authors label such haplo "frequent" in south Asia; allways it's good to check sources and use own logics as out there are many people with university degree got from good memory alone. The conclusion seems by now that NW Caucasus was colonized by Anatolian farmers delivering there pre-proto-Kartvelian or NW Caucasian. Also it will be necessary to check more to distinguish their expected substrate CHG DNA from the similar Iran_Neolithic DNA from Azerbadjan (latu sensu) spread in the Copper Age, otherwise we will continue to discuss from data worked with the ass.
    I honestly doubt Maykop were descend of Anatolian farmers. A few mtDNA resembling those of Anatolian Farmers don't tell much. I would be suprised if Maykop didn't turn out as CHG/Iran_Neo with more Villabruna like and less BE and some Anatolian_Neo admixture. yDNA will be quite interesting also. Since it doesn't seem that the CHG/Iran_Neo in Yamna came via Caucasus wifes alone.
    Last edited by Alan; 19-08-16 at 14:07.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I honestly doubt Maykop were descend of Anatolian farmers. A few mtDNA resembling those of Anatolian Farmers don't tell much. I would be suprised if Maykop didn't turn out as CHG/Iran_Neo with more Villabruna like and less Basal admixture. yDNA will be quite interesting also. Since it doesn't seem that the CHG/Iran_Neo in Yamna came via Caucasus wifes alone.
    I admit that I have thought about early R1b cattle herders coming from Iran instead of eastern Anatolia/Armenia. It would make more sense in the light of the Middle Easter admixture found in Yamna being mainly CHG-like and not Anatolian Farmer-like. Cows were domesticated c. 8500 BCE, but didn't appear in the Pontic Steppe/North Caucasus until about 5500 BCE, I think. That leaves an awful lot of time for cattle herders to have first ventured east to Iran before crossing the Caucasus. In fact that may be why we see more R1b (both M269 and M73) in Daghestan than around Maykop in the Northwest Caucasus. So it increasingly looks like I missed a step when I drew an arrow from Kurdistan to the Steppe in my R1b migration map. I should probably have had R1b backtrack east to Iran first, then pass along the Caspian coast through Azerbaijan and Daghestan, which is the typical route to cross the Caucasus.
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    I still doubt proto IE crossed the Caucasus with cattle.
    Didn't cattle arrive on the Pontic steppe along with Balkan copper?

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    @Alan

    It's not a few mtDNA linking Maykop with Anatolia but four in five, it's an impressive proportion. To that its possible to add up the high freq of G2a, also charactetistic of Anatolian Neolithics. Occam's razor makes the rest. Of course I'm not denying "Iranian" genes from Leylatepe but it will be necessary to wait for Y-DNA and admixtures, but allways taking into account the possible CHG Mesolithics living before all it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I dont take offense, I just hate ignorance
    A mental transfer from Virtue to Maverick? Or another man of the same sect?

    Your nerves blind you, you are too sharp-reacting (and a bit respectless)! It's a pity because otherwise you could maybe tell us some interesting things about Baskic? In a linguistic thread. And here I'm not moking you.
    I'm ignorant as all the people are ignorant in a big part, even the scholars, even YOU. But I'm not stupid (I hope).
    Speaking about Baskic and loans or no loans, you HAD TO precise if you were speaking about ancient Baskic (or proto-B) or about current Baskic. If you compare ancient Baskic to present day English, you're mistaking; you would have to speak about Anglo-Saxon or even old Germanic. Just a point.
    I suppose the Maverick's future will be short enough here.

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    @Maverick, I suggest you to dwell two years alone in the Rocky Mountains, you could cure so your angry and unversal hate, otherwise i think that i will se you in TV news involved in a school shooting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I still doubt proto IE crossed the Caucasus with cattle.
    Didn't cattle arrive on the Pontic steppe along with Balkan copper?
    I think the archaeology shows pretty clearly that domesticated animals and copper flowed from the Balkans east onto the steppe. Whether any cattle also came from south of the Caucasus I don't know. Is there anything in the archaeology to show that?

    As I said in my original post, the mtDna certainly doesn't support an influx of "CHG" onto the steppe through "Caucasus wives", whether kidnapped or traded for, but it's only six samples altogether, so we'll have to see. I would be tempted to say it was there since the Mesolithic, except that the genetic data shows an increase over time and from south to north of that autosomal component, yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @Alan

    It's not a few mtDNA linking Maykop with Anatolia but four in five, it's an impressive proportion. To that its possible to add up the high freq of G2a, also charactetistic of Anatolian Neolithics. Occam's razor makes the rest. Of course I'm not denying "Iranian" genes from Leylatepe but it will be necessary to wait for Y-DNA and admixtures, but allways taking into account the possible CHG Mesolithics living before all it.
    As far as I am aware the high frequency of G2a is of modern Caucasus and I assume it was brought with Proto Kartvellian speakers. I don't believe Kartvellian is a Iran_Neo/CHG tongue. Rather it is an Anatolian_Neo language related to Basque. Modern Caucasus is mixed like ~65% CHG and ~35% Anatolian/Levant_Neo.

    Whatever language Maykop spoke I am criticial that it was Kartvelian.

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    Modern Caucasus admixture is to take with caution, as this geographic region is debt much to an artificial political consensus. Looking at genes the Caucasus is split mainly between east and west, and my pet idea is that such dualism is the product of a competing northwards colonization of Iran_Neolithics and Anatolia_Neolithics. Actual and old genes point that the first wave to reach NW Caucasus was the Anatolian, but natural neighbour interchange and the Laylatepe influx must have delivered also Iran_Neolitic DNA... which might be differentiated from the local Mesolithic CHG, otherwise everything will be messed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think the archaeology shows pretty clearly that domesticated animals and copper flowed from the Balkans east onto the steppe. Whether any cattle also came from south of the Caucasus I don't know. Is there anything in the archaeology to show that?

    As I said in my original post, the mtDna certainly doesn't support an influx of "CHG" onto the steppe through "Caucasus wives", whether kidnapped or traded for, but it's only six samples altogether, so we'll have to see. I would be tempted to say it was there since the Mesolithic, except that the genetic data shows an increase over time and from south to north of that autosomal component, yes?
    that is my feeling to
    after the Epigravettian, there was a continuous flow south to north across the Caucuasus
    then, when Sintashta or degrading clmimate ousted many tribes out of the steppe, the direction of the flow reversed untill iron age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I admit that I have thought about early R1b cattle herders coming from Iran instead of eastern Anatolia/Armenia. It would make more sense in the light of the Middle Easter admixture found in Yamna being mainly CHG-like and not Anatolian Farmer-like. Cows were domesticated c. 8500 BCE, but didn't appear in the Pontic Steppe/North Caucasus until about 5500 BCE, I think. That leaves an awful lot of time for cattle herders to have first ventured east to Iran before crossing the Caucasus. In fact that may be why we see more R1b (both M269 and M73) in Daghestan than around Maykop in the Northwest Caucasus. So it increasingly looks like I missed a step when I drew an arrow from Kurdistan to the Steppe in my R1b migration map. I should probably have had R1b backtrack east to Iran first, then pass along the Caspian coast through Azerbaijan and Daghestan, which is the typical route to cross the Caucasus.
    Yep makes archeologically sense. NW Iran= > Leyla Tepe=> Kura Araxes, Maykop and the Steppes.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    As far as I am aware the high frequency of G2a is of modern Caucasus and I assume it was brought with Proto Kartvellian speakers. I don't believe Kartvellian is a Iran_Neo/CHG tongue. Rather it is an Anatolian_Neo language related to Basque. Modern Caucasus is mixed like ~65% CHG and ~35% Anatolian/Levant_Neo.

    Whatever language Maykop spoke I am criticial that it was Kartvelian.
    Wasn't ancient G2a and G2b also found in ancient SE-Anatolia?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtue View Post
    Maciamo you're a good anthropologist and all, but leave the ludicrous mainstream theories out of this. (which may easily be proven wrong in a few weeks or years from now.)

    Just because these findings are there, does not necessarily make them true. Another person, or that same person can do the same testing of this population, and these findings may be gone tomorrow. Stick with the findings that have the most proof to them.

    Also, the Kurgan and Anatolian theories/hypothesizes are not necessarily true. They are just exactly that, theories. They can both be only partially true, or not true at all.

    And personally, from my own analysis of the Basque language, and my experience with Basque people and culture, it has recently come to my attention that Basque and Vasconic are nothing more than isolated (old European) proto-languages. (just Like proto-Indo-European)

    These proto-languages stopped evolving during the Indo-European invasion, and now we have Standard Basque. ​This explains why Basque has one of the least linguistic borrowings in Europe. This would explain why Basque is less developed or organized than say IE or Afro-Asiatic, as the words seem more Like "nonsensical gibberish, and the grammar has no official word order. (unless you count the common "SOV".)

    (I am basically saying here, that Basque or Vasconic, is merely an isolated Western European language group, but stopped evolving due to the more prominent Indo-European language group. (during invasion) This may explain why it has so many different functions and complex grammar.

    It is possible that proto-Indo-European and proto-Afro-Asiatic started off similar to Basque/Vasconic. Because Basque acts like a more nomadic language. (It has Ergative grammar. Kind of like the isolated Eskimo, or Amerindian languages)
    I agree with you on your first statement. Both the mainstream theories and their popular alternatives can be partly or entirely wrong. That being I don't agree with the rest of the statements. It's important to note that there are many languages with free or relatively free word order.

    Personally I believe that the PIE had relatively free word order like Latin, Classical, medieval and modern Greek, Persian, Romanian, Albanian, (but also: Finnish, Turkish) etc. Many languages with high or relatively high degree of morphological marking have relatively free word order.

    The things being said here are mostly true about Greek too. So there's nothing special about Basque or the languages which have relatively free word order.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_grammar#Syntax

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Wasn't ancient G2a and G2b also found in ancient SE-Anatolia?
    Not as far as I know, Eastern Anatolian samples turned out R1b, L1a so far.

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