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Thread: Unetice culture was clearly multi-ethnic

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Lavanttal seems to be located in a region where the Slovene minority lives. Are you sure this "Austrian" is not one of them?
    Good question. I'm not sure.

    He might be a Germanized Carinthian Slovene. I will ask him whether he identifies as a Slovene or a German.

    Here is another Austrian (with ancestry from Southern Austria) - posted on Anthrogenica:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post184999

    Southern Euro* - 36.2%
    Northeast Euro - 32%
    Northwest Euro - 26%
    Near Eastern - 4.5%
    Ambiguous - 1.1%


    His Northeast Euro is entirely "North Slavic" (no any Finnish).

    *His Southern European seems to be diverse - it includes:

    Balkan - 15%
    Ambiguous South Euro - 3.3%
    Sardinian - 4.5%
    Ambiguous Southwest Euro - 2.4%
    Mediterranean Islander - 11%

    His Near Eastern is labelled as "Central Indoeuropean". Here are reference populations for this component:

    Central Indoeuropean:

    Includes: Abkhasian in Abkhazia; Armenian in Armenia; Georgian/Megrels in Georgia; Iranian in Iran; Druze in (Carmel) Israel; Balkar, Chechen, Kumyk, Lezgin, North Ossetian and Adygei in (Caucasus and 5 other sites) Russia and Turkish in (Adana, Aydin, Balikesir, Istanbul, Kayseri, Trabzon and 1 other site) Turkey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^ Have you read Jean Manco's "Ancestral Journeys" ??? There is a theory that Bell Beaker Folks spoke Pre-Proto-Celtic.

    Rathlin Island skeletons were probably people of the Food Vessel culture, which descended from Bell Beaker culture.

    In any case, Bronze Age Irish samples are genetically very similar to Iron Age Insular Celts, as well as to modern-day Irish.

    So either they spoke Celtic, or Celtic was introduced later but as a cultural process, with not much of a population turnover.

    In Ireland ancient DNA suggests a turnover (replacement) between Neolithic and Bronze Age; then continuity to present-day.

    There was no any Post-Bronze replacement in Ireland (only admixtures from outside, but the "core population" is the same).
    I personally would argue that R-P312 were non-IE originally (para-IE at most, Vasconic imo) and was already there and in Iberia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Here it is - Rathlin 1 genome (I guess that he could be a Pre-Proto-Celtic speaker?):

    https://s18.postimg.io/mya56j6jt/Rathlin_1.png


    Rathlin 1 looks amazingly simiar to RISE150 and especially I0116. The percentages of NW European and North Slavic are almost identical. That confirms what I wrote about Unetice being the source of Western European R1b. It is true that no R1b has been found in Unetice so far, but in all fairness we only have two Y-DNA samples from this culture. I am certain that there will be plenty of R1b. We already know that R1b (P51, P312 and S28) was in central Europe shortly before Unetice, in what is described as the Bell Beaker culture, but which I maintain wasn't really a culture in the ethnic sense, just a trade network for pottery and other artefacts that turn up in the archaeological record. The DNA evidence is clear. Unetice genomes either look like late Corded Ware ones (Scandinavian-Baltic looking) or like Bronze Age Irish ones (Pre-Proto-Celtic R1b).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Good question. I'm not sure.

    He might be a Germanized Carinthian Slovene. I will ask him whether he identifies as a Slovene or a German.

    Here is another Austrian (with ancestry from Southern Austria) - posted on Anthrogenica:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post184999

    Southern Euro* - 36.2%
    Northeast Euro - 32%
    Northwest Euro - 26%
    Near Eastern - 4.5%
    Ambiguous - 1.1%


    His Northeast Euro is entirely "North Slavic" (no any Finnish).

    *His Southern European seems to be diverse - it includes:

    Balkan - 15%
    Ambiguous South Euro - 3.3%
    Sardinian - 4.5%
    Ambiguous Southwest Euro - 2.4%
    Mediterranean Islander - 11%

    His Near Eastern is labelled as "Central Indoeuropean". Here are reference populations for this component:

    Central Indoeuropean:

    Includes: Abkhasian in Abkhazia; Armenian in Armenia; Georgian/Megrels in Georgia; Iranian in Iran; Druze in (Carmel) Israel; Balkar, Chechen, Kumyk, Lezgin, North Ossetian and Adygei in (Caucasus and 5 other sites) Russia and Turkish in (Adana, Aydin, Balikesir, Istanbul, Kayseri, Trabzon and 1 other site) Turkey
    This grouping is rather odd, don't you agree? It puts the Druze and Iranians in the same boat. I could be wrong and maybe perhaps there is a connection I'm unaware of but still, aren't levantines and Iranians significantly different from each other, genetically?

    Surprising Southern European score for the austrian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^ Have you read Jean Manco's "Ancestral Journeys" ??? There is a theory that Bell Beaker Folks spoke Pre-Proto-Celtic.
    Very dubious. Such theory must face the fact that Bell Beakers were also in place of lusitanian-galaic, vasconian, iberian, aquitanian and so. So it's like the theoey of IE from Anatolia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^ Have you read Jean Manco's "Ancestral Journeys" ??? There is a theory that Bell Beaker Folks spoke Pre-Proto-Celtic.

    Rathlin Island skeletons were probably people of the Food Vessel culture, which descended from Bell Beaker culture.

    In any case, Bronze Age Irish samples are genetically very similar to Iron Age Insular Celts, as well as to modern-day Irish.

    So either they spoke Celtic, or Celtic was introduced later but as a cultural process, with not much of a population turnover.

    In Ireland ancient DNA suggests a turnover (replacement) between Neolithic and Bronze Age; then continuity to present-day.

    There was no any Post-Bronze replacement in Ireland (only admixtures from outside, but the "core population" is the same).

    Just a detail but heavy: what if newcomers, I-E too but more precisely Celtic speaking, arrived bearing roughly the same autosomes because coming from close regions spite later?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My results with GEDmatch Archaic DNA matches (segments >1.0 cM & 100 SNPs):

    I'm most similar to BR2 from Bronze Age Hungary (Kyjatice culture, 1270-1110 BC):

    https://s15.postimg.io/wvrbr7de1/Matches_GEDmatch.png

    What is also interesting is that I am more similar to Clovis Anzick than to Kennewick Man - what does it mean? After all, both of those Paleo-Americans had some ANE admixture, and Europeans also have it - but why is my ANE (assuming that this similarity is due to shared ANE ancestry) more similar to ANE of Clovis than to ANE of Kennewick?

    Could it be simply because Clovis lived 4000 years before Kennewick (= Kennewick's genome had more of America-specific genetic drift and America-specific natural selection?). Or maybe a Clovis-like population back-migrated from Alaska to Eurasia and their genes eventually reached as far west as Eastern Europe?):

    And when it comes to WHG, I have more in common with Loschbour than with La Brana:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    My results with GEDmatch Archaic DNA matches (segments >1.0 cM & 100 SNPs):

    I'm most similar to BR2 from Bronze Age Hungary (Kyjatice culture, 1270-1110 BC):

    https://s15.postimg.io/wvrbr7de1/Matches_GEDmatch.png

    What is also interesting is that I am more similar to Clovis Anzick than to Kennewick Man - what does it mean? After all, both of those Paleo-Americans had some ANE admixture, and Europeans also have it - but why is my ANE (assuming that this similarity is due to shared ANE ancestry) more similar to ANE of Clovis than to ANE of Kennewick?

    Could it be simply because Clovis lived 4000 years before Kennewick (= Kennewick's genome had more of America-specific genetic drift and America-specific natural selection?). Or maybe a Clovis-like population back-migrated from Alaska to Eurasia and their genes eventually reached as far west as Eastern Europe?):

    And when it comes to WHG, I have more in common with Loschbour than with La Brana:

    And did you notice that you are more like Stuttgart farmer than Loschbour HG?
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    What is also interesting is that I am more similar to Clovis Anzick than to Kennewick Man - what does it mean? After all, both of those Paleo-Americans had some ANE admixture, and Europeans also have it - but why is my ANE (assuming that this similarity is due to shared ANE ancestry) more similar to ANE of Clovis than to ANE of Kennewick?
    Use the "Are Your Parents Related?" tool on gedmatch's main page, enter the Anzick Boy (F999919) then try it with the Kennewick man (F999970).

    As you see, the Kennewick man is so inbreeded that it is as good as if he ha only half a genome to begin with, of course the Anzick boy who has a much more healthy heterozygoty will have almost twice as much chance to match anyone.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    It gets better and better: Celtic in Ireland around 2,000 BC and Germanic in Scandinavia around 3,000 BC. I suggest you do some rudimentary reading before wasting more time on a subject you apparently know nothing about. Plugging ancient genomes into calculators for designed modern day populations is dubious enough as it is -- thinking the results tell you something about those ancient cultures' linguistic features is not even pseudoscience anymore.
    Alan? I noticed the use of dubious again.

    Euro IE languages are generally historically attested much later than their Asiatic cousins. This doesn't necessarily correlate to when the languages were spoken e.g. proto-Italo-Celtic was almost certainly spoken before Indic based on the archaism that it shares with Hittite.

    It's definitely speculation to say that this or that 2000 BC horizon is Proto-Celtic or Germanic, but to say that it's impossible shows that it's actually you who doesn't know anything of the subject.
    Last edited by holderlin; 19-09-16 at 06:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Very dubious. Such theory must face the fact that Bell Beakers were also in place of lusitanian-galaic, vasconian, iberian, aquitanian and so. So it's like the theoey of IE from Anatolia.
    There's dubious again wtf.

    No it is nothing like Anatolian PIE.

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    It's funny, I was going to ask Tomenable if he had Raithlin right when I saw RISE150 and I0116.

    This is me belaboring my early departure of Celto-Italic theory.

    Notice the Finnish in Karelia and Samara, then look at RISE150 and I0116, which are more Southern than RISE139 and 145. We see relatively high Finnish. We also high Finnish in Raithlin.

    And in RISE98 we see the same signature, but pushed a little east. Germanic appears be ancestral to Balto-Slavic, yet it shares a great number of similarities with Celto-Italic, and it's Centum. RISE98 is close to what I would expect a "celto-Italicized" Balto-Slav to look like, and given all the data I would expect him/her to speak something that sounds like a proto-Germanic. This is also consistent with a Unetice overtaking of Corded Ware.

    I do think we're seeing main European IE branches develop in these samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Alan? I noticed the use of dubious again.

    Euro IE languages are generally historically attested much later than their Asiatic cousins. This doesn't necessarily correlate to when the languages were spoken e.g. proto-Italo-Celtic was almost certainly spoken before Indic based on the archaism that it shares with Hittite.

    It's definitely speculation to say that this or that 2000 BC horizon is Proto-Celtic or Germanic, but to say that it's impossible shows that it's actually you who doesn't know anything of the subject.
    What archaism does 'Proto-Italo-Celtic' share with Hittite?

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    I used Felix Immanuel's "Ancient Calculator":

    Ancient Calculator

    Ancient Calculator will tell you how much percentage of DNA and/or compound segments is shared between an ancient DNA and the autosomal file. In other words, it tells your total percentage of shared ancestors in each others pedigree. The tool includes 59 ancient DNA which allows to compare any autosomal file with ease. It supports FTDNA, 23andMe and Ancestry files.
    Here are my results for Copper-Bronze Age and younger samples (I added cultures):

    Bronze Age BR2 comes first again (1/5 - 1/4 of shared ancestry):

    BR2 - 22,36% - Kyjatice, Hungary
    RISE98 - 15,40% - Battle Axe (?)*
    RISE493 - 14,90% - Karasuk
    RISE505 - 14,45% - Andronovo
    RISE511 - 11,70% - Afanasievo
    RISE150 - 11,49% - Unetice
    RISE174 - 11,38% - Iron Age Sweden
    RISE497 - 10,53% - Karasuk
    RISE495 - 10,48% - Karasuk
    RISE552 - 9,95% - Yamnaya
    RISE523 - 9,86% - Mezhovskaya
    RISE395 - 9,68% - Sintashta
    RISE500 - 9,07% - Andronovo
    RISE496 - 8,68% - Karasuk
    RISE479 - 7,38% - Vatya
    RISE548 - 6,71% - Yamnaya
    RISE577 - 6,70% - Unetice
    IR1 - 6,67% - Mezocsat culture
    RISE499 - 6,38% - Karasuk
    RISE569 - 6,33% - Bell Beaker
    BR1 - 6,31% - Mako culture
    RISE509 - 6,10% - Afanasievo
    RISE502 - 5,87% - Karasuk
    RISE503 - 5,80% - Andronovo
    CO1 - 5,65% - Baden culture
    RISE00 - 5,49% - CW Estonia
    RISE94 - 5,46% - Battle Axe
    RISE504 - 4,88% - Kytmanovo
    RISE97 - 4,49% - Battle Axe
    RISE601 - 3,02% - Iron Age Siberia
    RISE602 - 2,91% - Iron Age Siberia

    And here Neolithic and Mesolithic samples from Europe (nothing is closer than BR2):

    NE1 - 20,49% - ALP culture, Hungary
    LBK - 20,04% - see below**
    Loschbour - 16,83% - WHG Luxembourg
    Motala12 - 8,45% - SHG Sweden
    KO1 - 7,38% - Hungarian HG
    NE7 - 6,97% - Lengyel culture
    La Brana - 6,70% - WHG Spain
    NE6 - 6,47% - LBK culture
    NE5 - 5,56% - Late ALP culture
    Ajvide 58 - 1,83% - Pitted Ware
    Gökhem 2 - 1,75% - TRB Sweden

    *It is not certain whether RISE98 was one of Battle Axe people. According to Artmar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Artmar
    RISE98 wasn't buried in Battle-Axe rite - only on burial site used previously by Battle-Axe people.
    **Is it Stuttgart, another LBK, or some composite created from several LBK samples?

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    Kyjatice culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I'm most similar to BR2 from Bronze Age Hungary (Kyjatice culture, 1270-1110 BC):
    Small village Kyjatice is not in Hungary, but in Slovakia. Majority territory of Kyjatice culture is in Slovakia, but in Hungary too.

    Coincidentally I discussed yesterday with archeologist Alexander Botoš from museum in Rimavska Sobota about genetic reseach of Kyjatice culture and about rying ground (prehistory cemetery) in village Kyjatice. Now dot exist genetic research of Kyjatice culture from Slovakia - I am sad .

    You can visit museum in Rimavska Sobota and see material culture of Kyjatice culture

    Kyjatice culture, wikipedia
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sk&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fsk.wik ipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKyjatick%25C3%25A1_kult%25C3%2 5BAra&sandbox=1

    Museum in Rimavska Sobota
    http://www.gmmuzeum.sk/stalaex.htm
    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sk&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmmuzeum.sk%2Fstalaex.htm&edi t-text=&act=url

    Museum in Rimavska Sobota on map
    http://www.gmmuzeum.sk/kontakt.htm

    Magical open-air museum in village Kyjatice
    kyjatice-03-500.jpghttp://www.regionmalohont.sk/wp-cont...ice-03-500.jpg

    Museum in Rimavska Sobota (Slovakia)
    Extremely rich collection of archeology is presented by four larger whole. Prehistoric and early-medieval development of the region provides a chronological overview of archaeological finds from the appearance of the man after the beginnings of Slavic settlement, with an emphasis on the younger Stone Age, Celts and La Tene culture and Roman period, represented by the findings of the Germanic Quadi and the Vandals. Bronze Industry is represented by products Pilinskas Kyjatice and culture, with an emphasis on jewelery, making tools and weapons. Pilinskas Kyjatice and culture are presented findings housing type and presenting findings dip method of burying. In 2000, the permanent exhibition expanded the whole divine triad of Včeliniec and its people, dead Eneolithic Baden culture (2300-1900 BC. L.). On a European scale is a unique findings depicting the way of life and the burial rite of the then people.
    http://www.gmmuzeum.sk/stalaex.htm

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    ^ As for Kyjatice culture, it seems that it had some demographic links with Lusatian culture.

    I have read that Kyjatice culture developed from a mixture of Lusatian and Gava groups:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gáva_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

    ^ Too bad, that we don't have any good-quality autosomal samples from Lusatian culture.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Insular Celtic scenario is wrong. To cite Matasovic2 (a Croatian celtologist), Insular Celtic is a language area. All of the 'old' Celtic languages (Primitive Irish, Common Brythonic, Gaulish, Galatian, Lepontic, Celtiberian, Gallaecian) were all fairly similar to each other.
    I did not imply whether I thought the relationship between Brythonic and Gaelic was areal or genetic. Matasovic still contraposes insular and continental Celtic in his newer publications, so I'm not sure what your point is if it's not entirely about semantics. He's also much more cautious in his pronouncements. You'll have to explain where you derive your confidence from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Pictish was a P-Celtic language, similar to Brythonic and Gaulish. See Forsyth3 for reference.
    Forsyth is a historian, not a linguist. For reference, Eric P. Hamp and Isaac Graham still classify Pictish as non-Indo-European - both of them certainly authorities in their respective fields. Matasovic refers to Pictish as possibly Indo-European, so there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    This doesn't necessarily correlate to when the languages were spoken e.g. proto-Italo-Celtic was almost certainly spoken before Indic based on the archaism that it shares with Hittite.
    A single archaism retained in several Indo-European languages is hardly conclusive. Your pet theory around a branch generally rejected by historical linguists needs more precise evidence to be considered anything but 'dubious'.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I did not imply whether I thought the relationship between Brythonic and Gaelic was areal or genetic. Matasovic still contraposes insular and continental Celtic in his newer publications, so I'm not sure what your point is if it's not entirely about semantics. He's also much more cautious in his pronouncements. You'll have to explain where you derive your confidence from.
    If you look at the modern Insular Celtic languages (e.g Irish, Breton and Welsh) and compare them with the better-known extinct Continental Celtic languages (Celtiberian and Gaulish), that concept is useful. My point is that the earliest attestations of Goidelic and Brythonic were essentially "Continental Celtic" in their character, meaning that the "Insularity" was a later innovation, which is exactly what Matasovic argues in the paper I cited. Matasovic makes a comparison with the medieval Balkans: "the absence of a sharp sociolinguistic division between high and low va- rieties of the languages in contact. In medieval Balkans, the languages of the lowlands Slavic agriculturalists, and those of the highland pastoralists speaking various forms of Balkan Romance and Proto-Albanian were of roughly equal status. Similar social patterns exist in other regions where areal phenomena have spread, e.g. in the Arnhem Land of Australia." Matasovic points out that there is no independent evidence for the existence of such a "substrate language" (commonly thought to be Afroasiatic), which is supposed to have influenced the Insular Celtic languages.

    Forsyth is a historian, not a linguist. For reference, Eric P. Hamp and Isaac Graham still classify Pictish as non-Indo-European - both of them certainly authorities in their respective fields. Matasovic refers to Pictish as possibly Indo-European, so there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus.
    That doesn't prevent Forsyth from being very accurate in her analysis. She dubbs the language of northern Britain during the Roman period 'Pritenic', and uses that term to distinguish it from the later Pictish language spoken during the early Middle Ages. To quote her (p26): "Rivet and Smith have remarked on the essential unity of place names throughout Britain in the Roman period. We have the same roots and formations recurring north and south, sometimes even the same names (Ituna, Alauna, Dumnonii), a cohesion which extends to the Celtic-speaking areas of the continent, too."

    If you distrust Forsyth because she's a historian, I recommend that you read the original sources (Tacitus' Agricola and Ptolemy's Geography). If Britain was seemingly entirely Celtic throughout by 100 AD, where are the non-Indo-Europeans by 400 AD supposed to come from?
    Last edited by Taranis; 20-09-16 at 15:24.

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    Unetice culture

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    where did Unetice originate? was it Bohemia?
    English wikipedia: Czech Únětická kultura, is an archaeological culture at the start of the Central European Bronze Age, dated roughly to about 2300–1600 BC. The eponymous site for this culture, the village of Únětice, is located in the central Czech Republic, northwest of Prague. Today, this archaeological culture is known from Czech Republic and Slovakia from about 1,400 sites, from Poland (550 sites) and Germany (about 500 sites and loose finds locations).

    In Czech language wikipedia about Unetice culture: The eastern border of occupied territory in its largest heyday accounted Slovak river Zittau.

    The largest number archeological objects of Unetice culture is in Slovakia.

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    Samples of ancient DNA from the following will be published soon:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Samples of ancient DNA from the following will be published soon:

    - South Baltic Mesolithic
    - Kunda & Narva cultures
    - South Baltic Corded Ware
    - Trzciniec culture
    I am in a hurry to see whether I-M253 will be present in all these new samples;
    especially among the mesolithic ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Here are my results for Copper-Bronze Age and younger samples (I added cultures):

    Bronze Age BR2 comes first again (1/5 - 1/4 of shared ancestry):

    BR2 - 22,36% - Kyjatice, Hungary
    (...)
    And here is what Shaikorth wrote on Anthrogenica:

    looks like BR2 descendants contributed to modern Poles pretty much more than to anyone else in Europe, similarly to how Rathlin Bronze Age's closest genealogical descendants were Irish and Welsh. This was verified in Cassidy et al. (...)

    BR2 population's direct descendants survived better in Poland than anywhere else, but that population likely isn't the only ancestor of modern Poles. (...)
    Michał added:

    it is modern Poland where the closest relatives of BR2 have somehow managed to survive, although they were strongly admixed with an unknown (but genetically distinct) population
    Here is a map from Cassidy et al. which was mentioned by Shaikorth:

    http://s22.postimg.org/5y9hc69ip/br2.jpg



    Here a broader picture:


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^ Kyjatice people - such as BR2 - were partially descended from people of the Lusatian culture.

    It is possible, that similarity of Poles and BR2 is due to shared ancestry from Lusatian population.

    Unfortunately, we don't have any good-quality ancient DNA samples from the Lusatian culture.

    If we had such a sample, then probably I would share even more with that sample than with BR2.

    ==========================

    Another theory is that people of Trzciniec culture were partially descended from BR2-like populations.

    And Trzciniec seems to be the direct ancestors of Slavs and Balts (but let's wait for official publication).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And here is what Shaikorth wrote on Anthrogenica:



    Michał added:



    Here is a map from Cassidy et al. which was mentioned by Shaikorth:

    http://s22.postimg.org/5y9hc69ip/br2.jpg



    Here a broader picture:

    Always surprised me we a strong connection to Welsh population and Italians, and this is without any Y DNA connection, almost. It drops quicker for Germanics than for Balkans.
    From all the ancient samples I have strongest connection to Hungarian BR2. It makes sense for me.

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