Unetice culture was clearly multi-ethnic

[MarkoZ]

^^^ Have you read Jean Manco's "Ancestral Journeys" ???

I prefer books written by specialists. And so should you.

There's no way insular Celtic would be so similar to Gaulish if they separated 2,000 BC.

or Celtic was introduced later but as a cultural process, with not much of a population turnover.

This.

 

[Tomenable]

But some form of Indo-European speech - and probably very similar to Celtic - was spoken in Bronze Age Ireland.

A good analogy is what happened later in Gaul. Celtic (Gaulish) was replaced by Italic (Latin) after the Roman conquest. However, both of these languages were IE and - actually - quite closely related (both descended from Proto-Italo-Celtic branch of IE).

Some form of Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic was also spoken in Bronze Age Ireland, later replaced by another form of it.

 

[MarkoZ]

But some form of Indo-European speech - and probably very similar to Celtic - was spoken in Bronze Age Ireland.

A good analogy is what happened later in Gaul. Celtic (Gaulish) was replaced by Italic (Latin) after the Roman conquest. However, both of these languages were IE and - actually - quite closely related (both descended from Proto-Italo-Celtic branch of IE).

Some form of Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic was also spoken in Bronze Age Ireland, later replaced by another form of it.

Impossible to know for sure. 'Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic' is hardly a thing and the substrata in Brythonic and Gaelic don't look very Indo-European at all. Pictish was classified by Hamp as non-Indo-European, although I'm not sure how definitive this is. At the very least there is a strong pre-IE stratum.

 

[ElHorsto]

By comparison, a modern Austrian German from Lavanttal scores only 25% of "Northwest Euro", less than me (36%):

He is almost as much "North-East Euro" as me, less "North-West Euro", but much more "Southern Euro" than me:

My combined Southern European score is 9.5%, while this Austrian German has 24.2% (18% + 6.2% Sardinian):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavanttal

Lavanttal seems to be located in a region where the Slovene minority lives. Are you sure this "Austrian" is not one of them?

 

[Taranis]

MarkoZ - Nordic Bronze Age culture is associated with Proto-Germanic speakers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

Especially in the region of Scania, where that RISE98 guy lived / was buried:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scania

If RISE98 lived before PGMc developed, then he could speak Pre-Proto-Germanic.

No. If he was an Indo-European speaker he would have spoken a dialect very close to the proto-language. Proto-Germanic is an iron age phenomenon.

Pre-Proto-Germanic would refer to the language stage of Proto-Germanic before Grimm's Law came into effect. And yes, it would have been a language much closer to PIE (or late PIE, to be accurate). Euler¹ wrote an extensive book on the issue, even if I disagree with his conclusion that Grimm's Law occured so late (here I would agree with you that it was near the start of the iron age).

I prefer books written by specialists. And so should you.

There's no way insular Celtic would be so similar to Gaulish if they separated 2,000 BC.

This.

The Insular Celtic scenario is wrong. To cite Matasovic² (a Croatian celtologist), Insular Celtic is a language area. All of the 'old' Celtic languages (Primitive Irish, Common Brythonic, Gaulish, Galatian, Lepontic, Celtiberian, Gallaecian) were all fairly similar to each other.

Impossible to know for sure. 'Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic' is hardly a thing and the substrata in Brythonic and Gaelic don't look very Indo-European at all. Pictish was classified by Hamp as non-Indo-European, although I'm not sure how definitive this is. At the very least there is a strong pre-IE stratum.

Pictish was a P-Celtic language, similar to Brythonic and Gaulish. See Forsyth³ for reference.

¹Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen,'Language and Origin of the Germanic peoples'
(Wolfram Euler, 2009).

²Insular Celtic as a Language Area (Ranko Matasovic, 2007)

³Languages of Pictland (Katherine Forsyth, 1997)

 

[Tomenable]

Lavanttal seems to be located in a region where the Slovene minority lives. Are you sure this "Austrian" is not one of them?

Good question. I'm not sure.

He might be a Germanized Carinthian Slovene. I will ask him whether he identifies as a Slovene or a German.

Here is another Austrian (with ancestry from Southern Austria) - posted on Anthrogenica:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6860-DNA-land-update&p=184999&viewfull=1#post184999

Southern Euro* - 36.2%
Northeast Euro - 32%
Northwest Euro - 26%
Near Eastern - 4.5%
Ambiguous - 1.1%

His Northeast Euro is entirely "North Slavic" (no any Finnish).

*His Southern European seems to be diverse - it includes:

Balkan - 15%
Ambiguous South Euro - 3.3%
Sardinian - 4.5%
Ambiguous Southwest Euro - 2.4%
Mediterranean Islander - 11%

His Near Eastern is labelled as "Central Indoeuropean". Here are reference populations for this component:

Central Indoeuropean:

Includes: Abkhasian in Abkhazia; Armenian in Armenia; Georgian/Megrels in Georgia; Iranian in Iran; Druze in (Carmel) Israel; Balkar, Chechen, Kumyk, Lezgin, North Ossetian and Adygei in (Caucasus and 5 other sites) Russia and Turkish in (Adana, Aydin, Balikesir, Istanbul, Kayseri, Trabzon and 1 other site) Turkey

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

^^^ Have you read Jean Manco's "Ancestral Journeys" ??? There is a theory that Bell Beaker Folks spoke Pre-Proto-Celtic.

Rathlin Island skeletons were probably people of the Food Vessel culture, which descended from Bell Beaker culture.

In any case, Bronze Age Irish samples are genetically very similar to Iron Age Insular Celts, as well as to modern-day Irish.

So either they spoke Celtic, or Celtic was introduced later but as a cultural process, with not much of a population turnover.

In Ireland ancient DNA suggests a turnover (replacement) between Neolithic and Bronze Age; then continuity to present-day.

There was no any Post-Bronze replacement in Ireland (only admixtures from outside, but the "core population" is the same).

I personally would argue that R-P312 were non-IE originally (para-IE at most, Vasconic imo) and was already there and in Iberia.

 

[Maciamo]

Here it is - Rathlin 1 genome (I guess that he could be a Pre-Proto-Celtic speaker?):

https://s18.postimg.io/mya56j6jt/Rathlin_1.png

Rathlin 1 looks amazingly simiar to RISE150 and especially I0116. The percentages of NW European and North Slavic are almost identical. That confirms what I wrote about Unetice being the source of Western European R1b. It is true that no R1b has been found in Unetice so far, but in all fairness we only have two Y-DNA samples from this culture. I am certain that there will be plenty of R1b. We already know that R1b (P51, P312 and S28) was in central Europe shortly before Unetice, in what is described as the Bell Beaker culture, but which I maintain wasn't really a culture in the ethnic sense, just a trade network for pottery and other artefacts that turn up in the archaeological record. The DNA evidence is clear. Unetice genomes either look like late Corded Ware ones (Scandinavian-Baltic looking) or like Bronze Age Irish ones (Pre-Proto-Celtic R1b).

 

[davef]

Good question. I'm not sure.

He might be a Germanized Carinthian Slovene. I will ask him whether he identifies as a Slovene or a German.

Here is another Austrian (with ancestry from Southern Austria) - posted on Anthrogenica:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6860-DNA-land-update&p=184999&viewfull=1#post184999

Southern Euro* - 36.2%
Northeast Euro - 32%
Northwest Euro - 26%
Near Eastern - 4.5%
Ambiguous - 1.1%

His Northeast Euro is entirely "North Slavic" (no any Finnish).

*His Southern European seems to be diverse - it includes:

Balkan - 15%
Ambiguous South Euro - 3.3%
Sardinian - 4.5%
Ambiguous Southwest Euro - 2.4%
Mediterranean Islander - 11%

His Near Eastern is labelled as "Central Indoeuropean". Here are reference populations for this component:

Central Indoeuropean:

Includes: Abkhasian in Abkhazia; Armenian in Armenia; Georgian/Megrels in Georgia; Iranian in Iran; Druze in (Carmel) Israel; Balkar, Chechen, Kumyk, Lezgin, North Ossetian and Adygei in (Caucasus and 5 other sites) Russia and Turkish in (Adana, Aydin, Balikesir, Istanbul, Kayseri, Trabzon and 1 other site) Turkey

This grouping is rather odd, don't you agree? It puts the Druze and Iranians in the same boat. I could be wrong and maybe perhaps there is a connection I'm unaware of but still, aren't levantines and Iranians significantly different from each other, genetically?

Surprising Southern European score for the austrian

 

[berun]

^^^ Have you read Jean Manco's "Ancestral Journeys" ??? There is a theory that Bell Beaker Folks spoke Pre-Proto-Celtic.

Very dubious. Such theory must face the fact that Bell Beakers were also in place of lusitanian-galaic, vasconian, iberian, aquitanian and so. So it's like the theoey of IE from Anatolia.

 

[MOESAN]

^^^ Have you read Jean Manco's "Ancestral Journeys" ??? There is a theory that Bell Beaker Folks spoke Pre-Proto-Celtic.

Rathlin Island skeletons were probably people of the Food Vessel culture, which descended from Bell Beaker culture.

In any case, Bronze Age Irish samples are genetically very similar to Iron Age Insular Celts, as well as to modern-day Irish.

So either they spoke Celtic, or Celtic was introduced later but as a cultural process, with not much of a population turnover.

In Ireland ancient DNA suggests a turnover (replacement) between Neolithic and Bronze Age; then continuity to present-day.

There was no any Post-Bronze replacement in Ireland (only admixtures from outside, but the "core population" is the same).

Just a detail but heavy: what if newcomers, I-E too but more precisely Celtic speaking, arrived bearing roughly the same autosomes because coming from close regions spite later?

 

[Tomenable]

My results with GEDmatch Archaic DNA matches (segments >1.0 cM & 100 SNPs):

I'm most similar to BR2 from Bronze Age Hungary (Kyjatice culture, 1270-1110 BC):

https://s15.postimg.io/wvrbr7de1/Matches_GEDmatch.png

What is also interesting is that I am more similar to Clovis Anzick than to Kennewick Man - what does it mean? After all, both of those Paleo-Americans had some ANE admixture, and Europeans also have it - but why is my ANE (assuming that this similarity is due to shared ANE ancestry) more similar to ANE of Clovis than to ANE of Kennewick?

Could it be simply because Clovis lived 4000 years before Kennewick (= Kennewick's genome had more of America-specific genetic drift and America-specific natural selection?). Or maybe a Clovis-like population back-migrated from Alaska to Eurasia and their genes eventually reached as far west as Eastern Europe?):

And when it comes to WHG, I have more in common with Loschbour than with La Brana:

 

[LeBrok]

My results with GEDmatch Archaic DNA matches (segments >1.0 cM & 100 SNPs):

I'm most similar to BR2 from Bronze Age Hungary (Kyjatice culture, 1270-1110 BC):

https://s15.postimg.io/wvrbr7de1/Matches_GEDmatch.png

What is also interesting is that I am more similar to Clovis Anzick than to Kennewick Man - what does it mean? After all, both of those Paleo-Americans had some ANE admixture, and Europeans also have it - but why is my ANE (assuming that this similarity is due to shared ANE ancestry) more similar to ANE of Clovis than to ANE of Kennewick?

Could it be simply because Clovis lived 4000 years before Kennewick (= Kennewick's genome had more of America-specific genetic drift and America-specific natural selection?). Or maybe a Clovis-like population back-migrated from Alaska to Eurasia and their genes eventually reached as far west as Eastern Europe?):

And when it comes to WHG, I have more in common with Loschbour than with La Brana:

And did you notice that you are more like Stuttgart farmer than Loschbour HG?

 

[Moi-même]

What is also interesting is that I am more similar to Clovis Anzick than to Kennewick Man - what does it mean? After all, both of those Paleo-Americans had some ANE admixture, and Europeans also have it - but why is my ANE (assuming that this similarity is due to shared ANE ancestry) more similar to ANE of Clovis than to ANE of Kennewick?

Use the "Are Your Parents Related?" tool on gedmatch's main page, enter the Anzick Boy (F999919) then try it with the Kennewick man (F999970).

As you see, the Kennewick man is so inbreeded that it is as good as if he ha only half a genome to begin with, of course the Anzick boy who has a much more healthy heterozygoty will have almost twice as much chance to match anyone.

 

[holderlin]

It gets better and better: Celtic in Ireland around 2,000 BC and Germanic in Scandinavia around 3,000 BC. I suggest you do some rudimentary reading before wasting more time on a subject you apparently know nothing about. Plugging ancient genomes into calculators for designed modern day populations is dubious enough as it is -- thinking the results tell you something about those ancient cultures' linguistic features is not even pseudoscience anymore.

Alan? I noticed the use of dubious again.

Euro IE languages are generally historically attested much later than their Asiatic cousins. This doesn't necessarily correlate to when the languages were spoken e.g. proto-Italo-Celtic was almost certainly spoken before Indic based on the archaism that it shares with Hittite.

It's definitely speculation to say that this or that 2000 BC horizon is Proto-Celtic or Germanic, but to say that it's impossible shows that it's actually you who doesn't know anything of the subject.

 

[holderlin]

Very dubious. Such theory must face the fact that Bell Beakers were also in place of lusitanian-galaic, vasconian, iberian, aquitanian and so. So it's like the theoey of IE from Anatolia.

There's dubious again wtf.

No it is nothing like Anatolian PIE.

 

[holderlin]

It's funny, I was going to ask Tomenable if he had Raithlin right when I saw RISE150 and I0116.

This is me belaboring my early departure of Celto-Italic theory.

Notice the Finnish in Karelia and Samara, then look at RISE150 and I0116, which are more Southern than RISE139 and 145. We see relatively high Finnish. We also high Finnish in Raithlin.

And in RISE98 we see the same signature, but pushed a little east. Germanic appears be ancestral to Balto-Slavic, yet it shares a great number of similarities with Celto-Italic, and it's Centum. RISE98 is close to what I would expect a "celto-Italicized" Balto-Slav to look like, and given all the data I would expect him/her to speak something that sounds like a proto-Germanic. This is also consistent with a Unetice overtaking of Corded Ware.

I do think we're seeing main European IE branches develop in these samples.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Alan? I noticed the use of dubious again.

Euro IE languages are generally historically attested much later than their Asiatic cousins. This doesn't necessarily correlate to when the languages were spoken e.g. proto-Italo-Celtic was almost certainly spoken before Indic based on the archaism that it shares with Hittite.

It's definitely speculation to say that this or that 2000 BC horizon is Proto-Celtic or Germanic, but to say that it's impossible shows that it's actually you who doesn't know anything of the subject.

What archaism does 'Proto-Italo-Celtic' share with Hittite?

 

[Tomenable]

I used Felix Immanuel's "Ancient Calculator":

Ancient Calculator

Ancient Calculator will tell you how much percentage of DNA and/or compound segments is shared between an ancient DNA and the autosomal file. In other words, it tells your total percentage of shared ancestors in each others pedigree. The tool includes 59 ancient DNA which allows to compare any autosomal file with ease. It supports FTDNA, 23andMe and Ancestry files.

Here are my results for Copper-Bronze Age and younger samples (I added cultures):

Bronze Age BR2 comes first again (1/5 - 1/4 of shared ancestry):

BR2 - 22,36% - Kyjatice, Hungary
RISE98 - 15,40% - Battle Axe (?)*
RISE493 - 14,90% - Karasuk
RISE505 - 14,45% - Andronovo
RISE511 - 11,70% - Afanasievo
RISE150 - 11,49% - Unetice
RISE174 - 11,38% - Iron Age Sweden
RISE497 - 10,53% - Karasuk
RISE495 - 10,48% - Karasuk
RISE552 - 9,95% - Yamnaya
RISE523 - 9,86% - Mezhovskaya
RISE395 - 9,68% - Sintashta
RISE500 - 9,07% - Andronovo
RISE496 - 8,68% - Karasuk
RISE479 - 7,38% - Vatya
RISE548 - 6,71% - Yamnaya
RISE577 - 6,70% - Unetice
IR1 - 6,67% - Mezocsat culture
RISE499 - 6,38% - Karasuk
RISE569 - 6,33% - Bell Beaker
BR1 - 6,31% - Mako culture
RISE509 - 6,10% - Afanasievo
RISE502 - 5,87% - Karasuk
RISE503 - 5,80% - Andronovo
CO1 - 5,65% - Baden culture
RISE00 - 5,49% - CW Estonia
RISE94 - 5,46% - Battle Axe
RISE504 - 4,88% - Kytmanovo
RISE97 - 4,49% - Battle Axe
RISE601 - 3,02% - Iron Age Siberia
RISE602 - 2,91% - Iron Age Siberia

And here Neolithic and Mesolithic samples from Europe (nothing is closer than BR2):

NE1 - 20,49% - ALP culture, Hungary
LBK - 20,04% - see below**
Loschbour - 16,83% - WHG Luxembourg
Motala12 - 8,45% - SHG Sweden
KO1 - 7,38% - Hungarian HG
NE7 - 6,97% - Lengyel culture
La Brana - 6,70% - WHG Spain
NE6 - 6,47% - LBK culture
NE5 - 5,56% - Late ALP culture
Ajvide 58 - 1,83% - Pitted Ware
Gökhem 2 - 1,75% - TRB Sweden

*It is not certain whether RISE98 was one of Battle Axe people. According to Artmar:

RISE98 wasn't buried in Battle-Axe rite - only on burial site used previously by Battle-Axe people.

**Is it Stuttgart, another LBK, or some composite created from several LBK samples?

 

[Sloven-Vened]

Kyjatice culture

I'm most similar to BR2 from Bronze Age Hungary (Kyjatice culture, 1270-1110 BC):

Small village Kyjatice is not in Hungary, but in Slovakia. Majority territory of Kyjatice culture is in Slovakia, but in Hungary too.

Coincidentally I discussed yesterday with archeologist Alexander Botoš from museum in Rimavska Sobota about genetic reseach of Kyjatice culture and about rying ground (prehistory cemetery) in village Kyjatice. Now dot exist genetic research of Kyjatice culture from Slovakia - I am sad .

You can visit museum in Rimavska Sobota and see material culture of Kyjatice culture

Kyjatice culture, wikipedia
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sk&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fsk.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKyjatick%25C3%25A1_kult%25C3%25BAra&sandbox=1

Museum in Rimavska Sobota
http://www.gmmuzeum.sk/stalaex.htm
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sk&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmmuzeum.sk%2Fstalaex.htm&edit-text=&act=url

Museum in Rimavska Sobota on map
http://www.gmmuzeum.sk/kontakt.htm

Magical open-air museum in village Kyjatice

http://www.regionmalohont.sk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/kyjatice-03-500.jpg

Museum in Rimavska Sobota (Slovakia)

Extremely rich collection of archeology is presented by four larger whole. Prehistoric and early-medieval development of the region provides a chronological overview of archaeological finds from the appearance of the man after the beginnings of Slavic settlement, with an emphasis on the younger Stone Age, Celts and La Tene culture and Roman period, represented by the findings of the Germanic Quadi and the Vandals. Bronze Industry is represented by products Pilinskas Kyjatice and culture, with an emphasis on jewelery, making tools and weapons. Pilinskas Kyjatice and culture are presented findings housing type and presenting findings dip method of burying. In 2000, the permanent exhibition expanded the whole divine triad of Včeliniec and its people, dead Eneolithic Baden culture (2300-1900 BC. L.). On a European scale is a unique findings depicting the way of life and the burial rite of the then people.

http://www.gmmuzeum.sk/stalaex.htm