Byzantine Empire

[Yetos]

Yetos, you do not think that even E-V13 has something to with Greeks or Greek colonization isn't it like 20% plus in overall Greeks? I always suspected that the Myceneans were R1b, I am J-Z482 or J2a4b3, mine is not from Greek colonization, but probably a lot of J2a's can be.

ok I am not a genetists,
can you give your score? or your Z,
are you L-227

 

[Azzurro]

ok I am not a genetists,
can you give your score? or your Z,
are you L-227

You mean my subclade I am Z482, which is a downstream of L210/L227.

 

[Yetos]

Z227 is a complex.
around 170000 is connected with Malta and Italy
above 200000 seems to be connected with Armenians and Cretans/Greeks
around 70000 seems to be Eskenazi far North to poland and Russia and Baltic

that is as far as I know and can tell

PS
are you sure you not a Pelasgian? an Thyrrenian? (Etrusco)

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, you do not think that even E-V13 has something to with Greeks or Greek colonization isn't it like 20% plus in overall Greeks? I always suspected that the Myceneans were R1b, I am J-Z482 or J2a4b3, mine is not from Greek colonization, but probably a lot of J2a's can be.

Nucleotid V-13 for me is a more complex story,
no matter found in Spain, I do not believe that this Spanish found is connected with Balkans,
there is cross by Italians with Pc1 that say that existed in Bulgaria 6ky from now,
yet this is a possibility by chances, not a fact,
the older found E-V13 is very new 2500 ky from now in Balkans and 4 ky at central minor Asia,
which for me seems enter much late at balkans,
I mean I believe that entered after bronze age, v-13 for me is the most unexplained and strange Y-Dna in Balkans.
and still I can not understand its peaks,
they are, nearby where Roman legions had camps,
but a lower percentage is gathered at mountain areas, and has strange distribution
for example in some Aromani is reaching 28% and in some few dozens of km nearby does not exist.​

the 4 more complicated for me are

V-13 at Balkans
the mtDNA of far North Europe which seems to be connected with Africa
the mt X2 in N America
and the Roma genes, especially mtDNA.

 

[Azzurro]

Z227 is a complex.
around 170000 is connected with Malta and Italy
above 200000 seems to be connected with Armenians and Cretans/Greeks
around 70000 seems to be Eskenazi far North to poland and Russia and Baltic

that is as far as I know and can tell

PS
are you sure you not a Pelasgian? an Thyrrenian? (Etrusco)

Yetos, I know based on Y-matches, Yfull and autosomal, that my line was Jewish, most of my close matches and all of my Y-67 are Jewish. I also have Italian, Spanish, Latino, 1 Syrian, 1 Yemeni and 1 Greek match on Y-12.

Thats my Z482 my more terminal clade, the upstream Z489 is also found in Cypriots, according to 1 study maybe 5% in Paphos and 1-2% overall, two theories on how it got to Cyprus was either Jews (later converted) or through the Phrygians.

The L210 line definitely went to the Levant, it is found throughout the entire Mediterranean.

 

[Azzurro]

You can also take this for an example anywhere the Achaeans settled or colonized in the Mediterranean there is a peak of E-V13, maybe had something to do with pre-Athenian population. Maybe the Pelasgians were E-V13?



[/QUOTE]

 

[Yetos]

You can also take this for an example anywhere the Achaeans settled or colonized in the Mediterranean there is a peak of E-V13, maybe had something to do with pre-Athenian population. Maybe the Pelasgians were E-V13?

[/QUOTE]

i know about Achaians,
but pelasgians were J2,
V-13 is inland not seafaring

 

[Azzurro]

Are you sure they were J2? Or possibly a portion of them, Minoans were J2a

 

[Azzurro]

Aeolians are also associated with E-V13, as it peaks along the coasts of NorthWestern Turkey

 

[Milan]

I favor the Greco-Aryan hypothesis,used in tandem with the Graeco-Armenian hypothesis, the Armenian language would also be included under the label Aryano-Greco-Armenic, splitting into proto-Greek/Phrygian and "Armeno-Aryan" (ancestor of Armenian and Indo-Iranian)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan
To me at least the Greek language sound most similar to Indo-Iranian and most cognates are to be found among them,then the Greek i believe come in closeness with poorly attested Thracian/Phrygian.
As such will be very suitable to be used in Eastern Mediteranean as lingua franca since ancient times.
So i think that the migration to Greece came from Anatolia,if this speakers will be associated with R1b,it will be with this subclade,but i doubt that they weren't admixed with other haplogroups.

 

[Azzurro]

Milan, that actually makes sense and would explain a portion of why Southern Italians including myself get 25-40% Asia Minor in Nat Geo and ftdna. Its 20-30% this R1b clade in areas of Magna Grecia. It even gets 10-15% even in the area surronding Constantinople. Also possibly explains why Greek is one of the more unique languages of Europe.

 

[Angela]

Milan, that actually makes sense and would explain a portion of why Southern Italians including myself get 25-40% Asia Minor in Nat Geo and ftdna. Its 20-30% this R1b clade in areas of Magna Grecia. It even gets 10-15% even in the area surronding Constantinople. Also possibly explains why Greek is one of the more unique languages of Europe.

I thought you were claiming to be central Italian? There is no way a Central Italian would get 25-40% Asia Minor on National Geographic. How could you have gotten your Genographic results and not looked at the autosomal make up of Tuscans on it? They are 4% Asia Minor, lower than Greeks and Romanians, which makes sense from everything else we know about them, particularly in relationship to Greeks, where they plot north of even the more northern Greeks.
https://s22.postimg.io/y9x754ylb/Geno_2_0_South_Europe.jpg

If you are central Italian of any sort and have numbers like that, you should carefully check your tree. You have very recent admixture from elsewhere.

I'm even surprised southern Italians would get those levels of Asia Minor. How many samples have you seen?

Also, why does an Italian not know how to spell "azzurro"? I mean, everybody has a brain freeze occasionally, but you're looking at that every time you post.

 

[Yetos]

Aeolians are also associated with E-V13, as it peaks along the coasts of NorthWestern Turkey

Νο

Con/polis area was a sink for more than 2 milleniums,
Build by Romans habbited by Greeks Thracians SouthSlavs Turks Vikings Russians Kurds Georgians Egyptians Jews Tattars etc
you can not have a clear view of Romans by analyzing Rome's cemeteries of 100 AD,
same is some areas where people gathered,

as for Achaians, remember that the area that has high peak was Roman guard base,
although few km south that has a more normal it is also a mountain area,

Anyway,
Allow me to have my precautions about the E-v13 as palaiolithic and epipalaiolithic in Balkans and Italy,
and yes it has the star shape expansion, and has peaks etc etc,
but still I am not conviced as palaiolithic.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Milan, that actually makes sense and would explain a portion of why Southern Italians including myself get 25-40% Asia Minor in Nat Geo and ftdna. Its 20-30% this R1b clade in areas of Magna Grecia. It even gets 10-15% even in the area surronding Constantinople. Also possibly explains why Greek is one of the more unique languages of Europe.

No way southern Italians get 25-40% Asia Minor and I doubt that you're Italian. A true Italian never would mistake the word "azzuro".

 

[Azzurro]

Angela, thanks I didn't even realize! How do you change it? No i'm fully Southern Italian my father is from Basilicata and my mom is from Sicilia, I don't know maybe mine in particular is higher than normal? I got that from speaking to administrators from FTDNA, they did averages of members that are of fully Italian descent being that most are from Southern Italy, in the South some got high numbers like 25-40% and in North some got either zero or 1-2%, it can also maybe be that maybe it is combination of two parents having 15-20% so maybe thats why its high or maybe ftdna and nat geo give extra Asia minor?

 

[Azzurro]

Pax Augusta, I am of full Italian descent, but I wasn't born in Italy, and it was an honest mishape spelling I forgot the additional r, and look some do and some don't I guess not everyone will have the same autosomal dna, they post averages, its possible alot of the Asia Minor probably was with neolithic farmers.

 

[Azzurro]

Yetos, I guess the best way to determine would be finding ancient samples, I'm talking about Greece, we all have our theories about the spread of haplogroups, I just think E-V13 was part of the Greek expansion or was part of Ancient Greece.

 

[Azzurro]

No way southern Italians get 25-40% Asia Minor and I doubt that you're Italian. A true Italian never would mistake the word "azzuro".

Letting no that you said no way, I am Southern Italian and got 29%, I have spoken to others and they got similar results the highest I saw was 37% and she was half Tuscan and half Lucana (Basilicata), maybe if more people do these tests they will be able to distinguish whether it was ancient or recent and re-categorized under Southern European, but possibly some could have been more recent, probably Roman Era or early middle ages.

 

[Angela]

Angela, thanks I didn't even realize! How do you change it? No i'm fully Southern Italian my father is from Basilicata and my mom is from Sicilia, I don't know maybe mine in particular is higher than normal? I got that from speaking to administrators from FTDNA, they did averages of members that are of fully Italian descent being that most are from Southern Italy, in the South some got high numbers like 25-40% and in North some got either zero or 1-2%, it can also maybe be that maybe it is combination of two parents having 15-20% so maybe thats why its high or maybe ftdna and nat geo give extra Asia minor?

You were speaking about Nat Geo. As I said, Tuscans get 4% Asia Minor on Nat Geo. Northern Italians probably get a little less. Yes, there's a cline in Italy, but I'd want to see a large number of VERIFIED results from southern Italians before I would believe that it jumps from 4-40% or even 25% in southerners. The differences are not that extreme.

If you kept a screen shot of this conversation you supposedly had with people who looked at large numbers of samples please provide it. I'd be very interested to read it and also to contact them personally if they are actually the people who run the program .

There's way too much reliance in the internet world on results which can't be verified. That's why it's always better to get the averages from the academics or the people who run the companies.

At any rate, even 25% would be far higher than what appears in any other analysis or calculator I've ever seen. On 23andme, for example, the highest score I've ever seen a southern Italian get for "Middle Eastern", which is modal, in their system, in Anatolia or "Asia Minor", is 12%, and many have a lot less than that. (North African is what is modal not only in North Africa, but in Egypt, Arabia, and Palestine or the southern Levant. I've never seen a southern Italian get more than 2-3% of that.) Of course, you could always run into some outlier, or something.

If you do indeed have 25-40% Asia Minor and you're not misreading your results, if I were you I would, as I suggested above, really analyze my tree. You most probably have relatively recent ancestry from elsewhere. Have your parents been tested?

As for changing "azzuro" to "azzurro", go to your settings and see if you can change it. I thought it was strange given that in my experience even if Italian Americans are unfortunately rather ignorant of Italian history, culture and language, they usually know "The Azzurri"! They even, at World Cup time, where the tee shirts.

Oh, sorry for any misunderstanding about your regional breakdown. It's just that there was someone at anthrogenica today or yesterday who made almost exactly the same argument, with what sounded to me like the same "voice", only he claimed to have 100% of his ancestry from the Marche. That would make results like this even more absurd, of course.

 

[Azzurro]

You were speaking about Nat Geo. As I said, Tuscans get 4% Asia Minor on Nat Geo. Northern Italians probably get a little less. Yes, there's a cline in Italy, but I'd want to see a large number of VERIFIED results from southern Italians before I would believe that it jumps from 4-40% or even 25% in southerners. The differences are not that extreme.

If you kept a screen shot of this conversation you supposedly had with people who looked at large numbers of samples please provide it. I'd be very interested to read it and also to contact them personally if they are actually the people who run the program .

There's way too much reliance in the internet world on results which can't be verified. That's why it's always better to get the averages from the academics or the people who run the companies.

At any rate, even 25% would be far higher than what appears in any other analysis or calculator I've ever seen. On 23andme, for example, the highest score I've ever seen a southern Italian get for "Middle Eastern", which is modal, in their system, in Anatolia or "Asia Minor", is 12%, and many have a lot less than that. (North African is what is modal not only in North Africa, but in Egypt, Arabia, and Palestine or the southern Levant. I've never seen a southern Italian get more than 2-3% of that.) Of course, you could always run into some outlier, or something.

If you do indeed have 25-40% Asia Minor and you're not misreading your results, if I were you I would, as I suggested above, really analyze my tree. You most probably have relatively recent ancestry from elsewhere. Have your parents been tested?

As for changing "azzuro" to "azzurro", go to your settings and see if you can change it. I thought it was strange given that in my experience even if Italian Americans are unfortunately rather ignorant of Italian history, culture and language, they usually know "The Azzurri"! They even, at World Cup time, where the tee shirts.

Oh, sorry for any misunderstanding about your regional breakdown. It's just that there was someone at anthrogenica today or yesterday who made almost exactly the same argument, with what sounded to me like the same "voice", only he claimed to have 100% of his ancestry from the Marche. That would make results like this even more absurd, of course.

I will send my autosomal breakdown and where I got my information on private message.

To my high Asia Minor when I initially got my results I was surprised too, and I started asking administrators and others if this result was normal and averages, I got a variety of answers but generally from ftdna I got the response that it is normal, maybe it has something to do with their MyOrigins calculation system, but even DNA.Land was giving me 60-65% Southern European and the rest Middle Eastern. Even Calculators on Gedmatch sort of give me similar results but it is instead replaced with East Med, West Asia and North African (all the tests and sites gave me 4%). I am currently pursuing my Tree, so far the only non Italian born was an ancestor from Malta (Attard) and it goes back to the 1710's. My parents are not tested.

I tried to change it but have not been able to, we are very proud and love the Azzurri. Every Euro and World Cup I put out my flag and wear my jersey. It all depends from where, in Montreal we keep to Cultural routes of course its more of Italian Culture from the 50's when they all came. In terms of history I agree, I personally do, I know Italian history better than the Canadian one. For the language as well I give my best effort, I took Italian courses and practice with i nonni.

No worries it is fine, it happens sometimes