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Thread: Eneolithic aDNA from Lake Baikal Siberia

  1. #51
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    It's a gross simplification to say that language is usually transmitted from father to son. The imposition of languages by elite dominance of males became common from the iron age onwards, but this was a function of advanced military & political organization rather than paternity.

    OK - so you are claiming that it was the case from the Iron Age onwards.

    And PIE expansions had been already in the Bronze Age, in times when language was still strongly correlated with Y-DNA, as you admit.

    Though I'm sure you've made up your mind already.

    That was Marija Gimbutas, not me. A nice summary of Gimbutas and other archaeologists is provided by Grzegorz Jagodziński here:

    http://grzegorj.interiowo.pl/lingwpl/pochie2.html#hip6

    Cultures often linked with the earliest/deepest PIE origins according to the Steppe Hypothesis, are either all or just some of these:

    - Seroglazovo culture (11th-9th millennia BC)
    - Bug-Dnieper culture (6300-5500 BC)
    - Dnieper-Donets culture (5400-4200 BC)
    - Samara culture (6th-5th millennia BC)

    After that, in the mid-6th millennium BC, that early PIE population emigrated towards the Middle Volga, and formed Samara culture there. The reason of that migration was probably the great flooding of the Black Sea by water from the Mediterranean Sea (which took place ca. 5600 BC) - as the result of which sea level in the Black Sea rised by even 150 meters and large areas of previously dry land became parts of the Black Sea. In their new homeland at the Middle Volga, PIE gradually learned from their neighbours to the east and to the south about the domestication of horses and about copper metallurgy. In 5200-4000 BC Khvalynsk culture existed between Saratov, Northern Caucasus, the Azov Sea and the Ural River.

    Khvalynsk culture was a continuation of Samara culture and a predecessor of fully developed kurgan cultures from later times. It was a Copper Age culture. They had domesticated horses. Proto-kurgans also emerged already in Khvalynsk culture. Around 4500/4200 BC people of Khvalynsk culture started to expand westward (Phase I of PIE expansions according to Gimbutas), forming Sredni Stog culture (4500/4200 - 3300 BC). Sredni Stog people established contact with people of agricultural Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (5500–2750 BC) from Romania, Moldova and Ukraine.

    During the existence of Sredni Stog culture, PIE dialect continuum gradually started to split into various IE language families.

    The earliest group which split from PIE of Sredni Stog culture, were Proto-Anatolian speakers of Cernavodă culture (4000-3200 BC). Around 3300 BC two other cultures - Yamnaya (Phase A) and Corded Ware (Middle Dnieper = Early Corded Ware) - emerged from Sredni Stog.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    OK so you are claiming that it was the case from the Iron Age onwards.

    And PIE expansions had been already during the Bronze Age, in times when language was still strongly correlated with Y-DNA, as you admit.




    That was Marija Gimbutas, not me. A nice summary of Gimbutas and other archaeologists is provided by Grzegorz Jagodziński here:

    http://grzegorj.interiowo.pl/lingwpl/pochie2.html#hip6

    Cultures often linked with the earliest/deepest PIE origins according to the Steppe Hypothesis, are either all or just some of these:

    - Seroglazovo culture (11th-9th millennia BC)
    - Bug-Dnieper culture (6300-5500 BC)
    - Dnieper-Donets culture (5400-4200 BC)
    - Samara culture (6th-5th millennia BC)

    After that, in the mid-6th millennium BC, that early PIE population emigrated towards the Middle Volga, and formed Samara culture there. The reason of that migration was probably the great flooding of the Black Sea by water from the Mediterranean Sea (which took place ca. 5600 BC) - as the result of which water level in the Black Sea rised by even 150 meters and large areas of previously dry land became part of the Black Sea. In their new homeland at the Middle Volga, PIE gradually learned from their neighbours to the east and to the south about the domestication of horses and about copper metallurgy. In 5200-4000 BC Khvalynsk culture existed between Saratov, Northern Caucasus, the Azov Sea and the Ural River.

    Khvalynsk culture was a continuation of Samara culture and a predecessor of fully developed kurgan cultures from later times. It was a Copper Age culture. They had domesticated horses. Proto-kurgans also emerged already in the Khvalynsk culture. Around 4500/4200 BC people of Khvalynsk culture started to expand westward (Phase I of PIE expansions according to Gimbutas), forming Sredni Stog culture (4500/4200 - 3300 BC). Sredni Stog people established contact with people of agricultural Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (5500–2750 BC) from Romania, Moldova and Ukraine.

    During the existence of Sredni Stog culture, PIE dialect continuum gradually started to split into various IE language families.

    The earliest group which split from PIE of Sredni Stog culture, were Proto-Anatolian speakers of Cernavodă culture (4000-3200 BC). Around 3300 BC two other cultures - Yamnaya (Phase A) and Corded Ware (Middle Dnieper = Early Corded Ware) - emerged from Sredni Stog.
    Thanks again, but I'm well aware of Gimbutas 'research'. However, since progress has been made in the archeology of the Transcaucasus during the last few decades we now know that the definite chronology of the Kurgans is Leyla-Tepe -> Maykop -> Yamnaya. Whether this tells us anything about the languages of said cultures I don't know.

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    We already have mtDNA from Maykop and it does not match mtDNA from the Steppe / Yamna.

    Moreover, the issue of PIE is all about expansions of language and people, not cultural trends.

    Maykop culture were most certainly speakers of one of languages of the Caucasus, not of IE:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Caucasus

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    Leilatepe - or at least their metallurgy - seems to be derived from Sumerian-speaking Uruk (see: Uruk expansions):

    (...) The appearance of Leilatepe tradition’s carriers in the Caucasus marked the appearance of the first local Caucasian metallurgy. This is attributed to migrants from Uruk, arriving around 4500 BCE. Leilatepe metalwork tradition was very sophisticated right from the beginning, and featured many bronze items. Yet later, the quality of metallurgy declined with the Kura–Araxes culture. (...)
    Sumerian language was Non-Indo-European:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    We already have mtDNA from Maykop and it does not match mtDNA from the Steppe / Yamna.
    Why should it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Moreover, the issue of PIE is all about expansions of language and people, not cultural trends.
    More specifically, it is only about the expansion of language. Although I'm not sure why you'd endorse Gimbutas if you really hold that opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Maykop culture were most certainly speakers of one of languages of the Caucasus, not of IE:
    Since the Caucasus is home to at 3 distinct language families not found elsewhere, I'd think that the mountains functioned as a refuge for languages that once had a wider distribution in the Circumpontic. There's little reason to assume continuity with an archeological culture that flourished in the region 5,000 years earlier. Also, the cultural impetus that lead to Maykop clearly lies outside of the modern range of the various Caucasian families, with no relatives attested further south.

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    it is clear Maykop came from south of Caucasus and was trading with Uruk
    IMO Yamnaya people were already on the steppe before Maykop

    around LGM Caspian Sea expanded upto Khvalynsk area, Aral Sea flooded into Caspian Sea and Caspian Sea via Manych depression into Black Sea, maybe around time of Seraglazovo
    flooding of Black Sea from Mediterranean probably was 10 ka or earlier

    maybe R1a1a was born in Seraglazovo and from there expanded to EHG and to EN Bajkal, this was not IE

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Leilatepe - or at least their metallurgy - seems to be derived from Sumerian-speaking Uruk (see: Uruk expansions):



    Sumerian language was Non-Indo-European:
    More specifically, it derives from Ubaid which in a later phase would give way to Uruk. However, there is no reason to assume that they spoke Sumerian only because they came from the area of Mesopotamia. Ubaid predates the first attestation of Sumerian by 2,000 years.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    More specifically, it is only about the expansion of language.
    It was about expansions of people as well. This "Anti-Migrationist" approach that you represent has been smashed by genetic evidence.

    There were some sweeping migrations:

    https://s12.postimg.io/bszjn5fbx/swe...migrations.png



    It is funny now, but at one point in time some genetic scholars used to think that farmers expanded to Europe from Sardinia. Nobody back then expected that Sardinians are just genetic remnants of a once larger whole, from times when Europe used to be populated by Sardinian-like people:

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...72926.full.pdf

    "European population "outliers" and "farming out of Sardinia" ???

    (...)

    When the first genomic data from early European farmers was obtained from a Scandinavian skeleton and a mummy from the Alps, commonly known as Otzi or the Tyrolean Iceman. Researchers were surprised that they showed a strong population affinity to modern-day Sardinians [6, 69]. This observation was even more puzzling since archaeological investigations demonstrate that farming started in the Fertile Crescent [59]. Later studies confirmed those affinities for early farmers from the areas of modern-day Sweden [22], Germany [24], Hungary [50], Spain [52, 51] and Ireland [53], which all showed particularly strong affinities to modern-day Sardinians and not to modern-day Near Eastern populations. Ancient genomic data from Neolithic Anatolia [27, 56, 58] resolved the puzzle by showing that Neolithic individuals from Anatolia were genetically similar to Neolithic farmers from across Europe and modern-day Sardinians. (...)"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Leilatepe - or at least their metallurgy - seems to be derived from Sumerian-speaking Uruk (see: Uruk expansions):



    Sumerian language was Non-Indo-European:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language
    Uruk had big food surplus and traded for luxury goods and metals
    but I doubt they had knowledge of metallurgy and mining themselves

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It was about expansions of people as well. This "Anti-Migrationist" approach that you represent has been smashed by genetic evidence.
    Your confused attacks are misplaced - I subscribe to no particular paradigm. I merely stated that the PIE-question is indeed linguistic in nature. Any attempt to construe the evidence to fit one's favorite archeological site is putting the cart before the horse.

    You on the other hand seem to favour the conveniently ecletic approach - your insistence that the development of the Kurgan mound in the southern Caucasus and its subsequent spread to the north is meaningless with regard to the question of socio-linguistic affiliation is textbook diffusionism.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Please open Google Maps and check where are Mentese and Barcin located.

    These are two places in westernmost Turkey, almost at the gates of Europe.

    I consider I2c and C1a2 in that area as the result of gene flow from Europe.

    This gene flow is confirmed in autosomal DNA, which shows 10-15% WHG.

    ==============================

    As for C1a2 - it was probably Southern European (from Iberia to the Balkans).



    Which sample was C1b ???



    IMHO there is not enough evidence that people in those regions were similar to each other to count them as one.

    A few samples of I2c and C1a2 in Anatolia only prove that there was some limited gene flow, but nothing more.

    We actually have not enough samples from Southeastern Europe. That single R1b from Villabruna was buried in Northern Italy, so it doesn't count as Southeastern Europe (even if his lineage originated from that region, as David Reich speculated).
    You have no way of knowing how far down into Anatolia and the Levant ydna haplogroup I2c penetrated. The autosomal data would indicate that it probably went further south than far northwestern Anatolia.

    You have no way of knowing where the refuge for WHG was located, or whether, as the Reich Lab paper indicated was a possibility, whether the refuge was in the Near East.

    Ditto for C1a2.

    In post after post you are presenting speculations, and not particularly well supported speculations, as fact.

    It's not at all persuasive. The only thing that is extremely clear is that you are not objectively trying to analyze the data. Instead, every fact is interpreted always and solely to support a very clear agenda.

    Movement of technology for you always means gene flow unless that gene flow comes from south of the Caucasus.

    What you have not addressed is why we find these R clades all the way in Siberia a long time indeed before, according to your hypothesis, they should have arrived there from their homeland in eastern Europe.

    Bicicleur: around LGM Caspian Sea expanded upto Khvalynsk area, Aral Sea flooded into Caspian Sea and Caspian Sea via Manych depression into Black Sea, maybe around time of Seraglazovo
    flooding of Black Sea from Mediterranean probably was 10 ka or earlier

    maybe R1a1a was born in Seraglazovo and from there expanded to EHG and to EN Bajkal, this was not IE


    Certainly makes more sense than that R formed in the far northeast and then went straight to Eastern Europe where all subsequent development took place always and only in eastern Europe.

    I suggested this long ago, but as always the "usual suspects" shot it down.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Tomenable

    It's a surprise to me the labeling of R1b as EHG when such haplo was found in Villabruna and considered as "Levantine", as must be the Chadian V88 clade. Now we know about "Armenian" R1b before Indoeuropeans in the Caucasus, and we know that Yamnayans and co. received a good genetic influx from the south... so that all evidence is delivering R1b around the Euphrates. Moreover EHG in east Europe usualy are in the R1a side, leaving not so much space for his bro.

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    Angela,

    You have no way of knowing how far down into Anatolia and the Levant ydna haplogroup I2c penetrated. The autosomal data would indicate that it probably went further south than far northwestern Anatolia.
    Here is a map of modern distribution of I2c - as you can see, it is still a mostly European lineage:

    http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p546/meon_/1.jpg



    Ditto for C1a2.
    This haplogroup is so rare today that accusing me that I want to "steal it for hunters" because I don't want to acknowledge that large part of European ancestry is from "farmers" is just silly. Angela, who even cares about C1a2 ???

    It is probably less than 0,1% of modern Europeans. I already explained my reasoning - if something was in Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europe (and C1a2 was), then I counted it as native European hunters. My criteria are coherent.

    This is why I did not count T1a as European - even though it was found only in Europe, but in a Neolithic context. So I classified I2c and C1a2 as European and T1a as Near Eastern. I actually could classify T1a as European as well.

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    Berun,

    considered as "Levantine", as must be the Chadian V88 clade.
    V88 was found in Neolithic Iberia and modern Sardinians also have some of its more basal subclades:

    So it is possible that V88 expanded to Africa from Southern Europe. Not necessarily from the Levant:



    Now we know about "Armenian" R1b before Indoeuropeans in the Caucasus
    You mean the Kura-Araxes sample? Well, Kura-Araxes culture is sometimes considered as IE-speaking.

    However, that samples was not M269+ but another subclade, which is rare today.

    and we know that Yamnayans and co. received a good genetic influx from the south...
    When you say that it was "from the south" you might be falling into a trap of "farming out of Sardinia" fallacy.

    Just because some autosomal signature looks "southern" today, doesn't mean that it was the case 6000 years ago.

    By the way - no matter from which direction was that gene flow, there is no proof that R1b was part of it.

    There was enough of R1b in Russia already long before Yamnaya culture emerged. Samara HG, Khvalynsk, etc.

    Moreover EHG in east Europe usualy are in the R1a side
    Hah! "Usually" ?! There is currently a 3:2 ratio. Three samples with R1a and two samples with R1b:

    https://s22.postimg.io/baarhhftt/EHG_samples.png


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    The Epigravettian is a partial continuance of the Central European Gravettian. Therefore it is hardly surprising that Villabruna is much closer to the hunter gatherers of Western Europe. In fact, it is the later Western Hunter Gatherers that show closer affinity to the hunter-gatherers of Eastern Europe and ultimately something related to the Afontova Gora specimen relative to the Epigravettians. This is even more evident in the Scandinavian hunter gatherers, who represent the next gradation with yet more eastern affinity. The hunter gatherers from the Oleni Ostrov cemetery are the most eastern transitional population within the geographic boundaries of Europe, as is expected from their location. It's only a matter of finding the right ancestral populations, although somewhere in the middle of the Villabruna-Afontova pole appears to be accurate enough.
    Of course populations sharing common ancestors with EHG that are closer in time and space to EHG will look more like the EHG that we see 8000 years ago. EHG is descended mostly from populations like Villabruna. The small minority of EHG ancestry is AG like, MA-1 like, or whatever else.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is with regards to the Mal'ta-Buret burial. Clearly, a single R* in the Siberian fridge is hardly informative. This environment favours preservation too well, so all kinds of odd things pile up there. You wouldn't argue that K2* is Siberian because of Ust'-Ishim, would you?
    This comparison is bad. Ust-Ishim's population doesn't appear to have any significant descendants.

    When the single R* is taken among all of the other ancient data in Europe/steppe along with modern descendant populations in Europe and Pre-columbian America it becomes very informative.

    Yeah, the steppe preserving stuff too well is really screwing up the data

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    Genetic talks on Eupedia always deteriorate into "hunters vs. farmers" battle!

    But Angela, this battle is always lost for you, "pro-farmers". Do you know why?

    Because everyone was a hunter before farming, at some point in the past!

    So we win. Hunters of the world should unite. We were all hunters anyway.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    the definite chronology of the Kurgans is Leyla-Tepe -> Maykop -> Yamnaya. Whether this tells us anything about the languages of said cultures I don't know.
    Why do people keep saying this? It's completely untrue. I'm so tired of seeing this on here.

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    Here is a good lecture by Mallory, in which he debunks the "Southern" Hypothesis of PIE origins:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI


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    @holderlin,

    MA1-like(more than like. Almost exact) ancestry is not a small minority in EHG, it is about as big as Villabruna-like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @holderlin,

    MA1-like(more than like. Almost exact) ancestry is not a small minority in EHG, it is about as big as Villabruna-like.
    Are you sure? I'm pretty sure EHG is more closely related to WHG than to MA-1. Maybe it's not by much?

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    @Tomenable
    The V88 clade appears in Africa around 5000 BC if the TMRCA of the local subclades are taken into account, and such date is too recent as to expect an European migration, being the easy route the Levantine, but here it's not a matter of routes, it is a matter of geography as the Sardinian V88, the Cardial Pyrinean V88 and the Chadian V88 all were coming from Euphrates, and that is not Eastern Europe.

    You mean the Kura-Araxes sample? Well, Kura-Araxes culture is sometimes considered as IE-speaking.
    Sorry but it's not serious, or you are a "Yamnayist" or you are a "Renfewist" but both thinks are not compatible... even so such R1b, speaking IE or not, was there in the Copper Age and there are not known migrations in the area (other than the Uruk?), so it's to expect that also such R1b would be from an ancient HG pop, and it was not in Eastern Europe.

    Just because some autosomal signature looks "southern" today, doesn't mean that it was the case 6000 years ago.
    It's southern because it's southern: Eastern HG had not the Caucasian / Iranian signature till farming and herding, and such techniques were coming from the south, as the kurgans of Leylatepe or Maykop.

    By the way - no matter from which direction was that gene flow, there is no proof that R1b was part of it.
    No proof? The Armenian R1b poped up in Yamnayans... there was not Caucasian autosomals when the region was HG... which direction it took so? Sorry but Occam's Razor is quite heavy to don't cut it.

    You show two R1b in the steppes in the Copper Age, but you are aware that the Copper Age is not the Mesolithic or the Paleolithic? By the way you forget to add R1a from Anashkino (Psov oblast) and two other R1a from Lokomotiv (near Lake Baikal), even if this is not Europe it points that Russia was not home for R1b in the Mesolithic.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Genetic talks on Eupedia always deteriorate into "hunters vs. farmers" battle!

    But Angela, this battle is always lost for you, "pro-farmers". Do you know why?

    Because everyone was a hunter before farming, at some point in the past!

    So we win. Hunters of the world should unite. We were all hunters anyway.
    Indeed, all of our ancestors were once hunters. If you're anyone except a Pygmy or a native from the Amazon rain forest or a few other such primitive groups, your ancestors have been farmers for at least 5000 years. Time to lose your nostalgia for living in a cave or a yurt, eating half raw meat, and scratching yourself under your furs, especially as every single one of the attributes of modern civilization which I'm sure you cherish, including your computer, your tv, your phone and whatever device you use for your music would have been impossible without that transition.

    None of that should have anything to do with how you analyze scientific material. You should do that as divorced from your own prejudices and biases as possible.

    Also, one of the things that happens with age is that you learn not to project your own prejudices and idiosyncrasies onto others. Hopefully, you'll gain that insight as well.

    As to your post upthread about I2c, really, you're going to post a map of modern distribution? Not good enough, I'm afraid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed, all of our ancestors were once hunters. If you're anyone except a Pygmy or a native from the Amazon rain forest or a few other such primitive groups, your ancestors have been farmers for at least 5000 years. Time to lose your nostalgia for living in a cave or a yurt, eating half raw meat, and scratching yourself under your furs, especially as every single one of the attributes of modern civilization which I'm sure you cherish, including your computer, your tv, your phone and whatever device you use for your music would have been impossible without that transition.

    None of that should have anything to do with how you analyze scientific material. You should do that as divorced from your own prejudices and biases as possible.

    Also, one of the things that happens with age is that you learn not to project your own prejudices and idiosyncrasies onto others. Hopefully, you'll gain that insight as well.

    As to your post upthread about I2c, really, you're going to post a map of modern distribution? Not good enough, I'm afraid.
    Good post! What's with this anti farmer stuff anyway.
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Of course populations sharing common ancestors with EHG that are closer in time and space to EHG will look more like the EHG that we see 8000 years ago. EHG is descended mostly from populations like Villabruna. The small minority of EHG ancestry is AG like, MA-1 like, or whatever else.
    Wrong, the hunters from Karelia ar roughly halfway between Villabrunna and AG3 - you could almost call them a hybrid population.


    This comparison is bad. Ust-Ishim's population doesn't appear to have any significant descendants.

    When the single R* is taken among all of the other ancient data in Europe/steppe along with modern descendant populations in Europe and Pre-columbian America it becomes very informative.

    Yeah, the steppe preserving stuff too well is really screwing up the data
    Mal'ta Buret is a dead end as well. Moreover, the isotope analyses of Richards et al showed that almost 20% of the boy's diet consisted of marine animals. This hardly sounds like a highly mobile population.

    Why do people keep saying this? It's completely untrue. I'm so tired of seeing this on here.
    This is pretty straightfoward - the Soyugbulag Kurgans are definiely the first distinct burial mounds of this type. If you are aware of even older Kurgans, please provide your evidence.

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    It all stems from the fact that a lot of the anthrofora people expected to find, and in fact had long insisted, that the hunter gatherers would turn out to look like albinos, and the farmers from the Middle East would be much "swarthier". So, the goal was to be as hunter-gatherer as possible. I suppose they also think they're more "indigenous" to Europe.

    I'm afraid some people haven't quite absorbed the fact that the WHG were darker than the farmers. The few EHG samples are pretty light, of course, but I increasingly think they got that trait from people coming from the Caucasus, or at any rate the selective sweep for those snps was very late. The latest shock has been that the WHG might have had their refuge either in the Near East or somewhere in Greece, perhaps spilling over into part of Anatolia. (as per the Reich Lab paper and subsequent comments by Reich himself)

    Anyway, it's all very silly, but there you have it. That's how some people approach population genetics.

    Oh, I think it may have something to do with the male/female ratio of amateurs interested in this topic. I can't imagine a woman romanticizing a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Yeah, right, moving constantly with an infant at your breast and a couple of older ones pulling at your clothes as you walk endlessly, having to rebuild the shelter constantly while the men trade hunting stories, foraging for miles again hampered by young children, nursing until they're freaking three years old to cut down on how many you have because otherwise they'll starve...

    Not that living in the early Neolithic was any picnic, or anytime other than the present, but everything is relative. The book I posted upthread talks about survival of children in these societies. Not for me, thank-you. These communities were always on the verge of extinction.

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