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Thread: Eneolithic aDNA from Lake Baikal Siberia

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post

    This is pretty straightfoward - the Soyugbulag Kurgans are definiely the first distinct burial mounds of this type. If you are aware of even older Kurgans, please provide your evidence.
    I have one question.
    Do you know why or how the kurgan was in there?
    As far as I know, the kurgan was just like pit house in siberia. So it is normal that the kurgan appeared, being developed in the steppe, but in south Caucasus?

    Arkaim in Sintashta culture pit houses, which are just kurgan, if gate is closed.


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    Well, a good big chunk of that EHG and SHG is actually WHG, isn't it?
    No they aren't. They were related groups with common ancestry.

    But we could as well claim that everyone in West Eurasia is Kostenki14.

    Because "Kostenki-like" groups were ancestral to all Western Eurasians:

    http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...=ffYwENZRGSBmI

    We can see this here, where Kostenki14 has a bit of each component:



    Blue (ancestral to WHG), grey (ancestral to EHG) and orange (to ENF).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    That paper is specifically about European hunter-gatherers. Don't pretend that you don't know it.

    It is not about any types of hunter-gatherers living anywhere in the world.

    Why are you so stubborn to prove that everything in Europe came from the Middle East?

    Don't you identify as a European? Italians also have some WHG and EHG. Embrace your HG part too.

    All Europeans are a mix of the same ancestral populations, only in different proportions.

    That's why in PCA all Europeans cluster together and are away from North Africans or Middle Easterners.

    Italians are also genetically closer to other Europeans than they are to present-day MENA populations.



    During some period of time, progress in the Middle East indeed tended to be faster.

    However, progress did not start only with farming. It had started already in the Upper Paleolithic period.

    And progress had been faster among northern hunters than among southern hunters:

    https://unsafeharbour.wordpress.com/...of-inequality/

    Quote:

    "(...) We all know that the early development in agriculture and civilization began in Eurasia - but it goes back much earlier than that. At a somewhat atemporal level, toolkits of hunter-gatherers have been shown to increase in size and complexity with latitude [larger and more complex toolkits in northern latitudes] (Oswalt, 1976) - the driving cause seeming to be the risk of resource failure (Collard et al., 2005). Developments necessary for cold, risk of resource failure… whatever the cause, Foley (1987) writes: 'although there is a general and global technological development during the Pleistocene, it is in high latitudes that it is most marked; in parts of the tropics the artefacts remained simple.' (...)"
    You really don't get it, do you? This has nothing to do with my ethnicity, and it should have nothing to do with yours. It should be based on facts, evidence, evaluated as honestly as possible. I've been studying world history, and pre-history, since before you were born, no doubt, and genetics for ten years, and that's what informs my opinions.

    With the Holocene, there were numerous developments in many fields, including microliths, and they took place in the Near East. Farming developed there, and herding, and metallurgy, and cities, and literacy, all of the hallmarks of civilization. I learned all those things in American universities from professors who were almost all "generic" American. I actually don't remember a single professor who had an Italian last name. Those are just facts. It's too bad if that conflicts with some idiotic racist notion of yours that the EHG are the supermen of human civilization because that group forms the largest portion of your own ancestry. OUR WHG ancestors, and OUR EHG ancestors were totally removed from all of that. Later on, the centers of civilization moved elsewhere. Those are the breaks. Groups are on top and then on bottom and who knows what will happen in the future.

    I find virtually everything you post lately totally biased, poorly reasoned, and often deliberately designed to mislead. Not to mention that you have an appalling lack of knowledge of ancient history. Your latest post is no exception.

    You think that people should or even do apportion their ancient ancestry in their minds, pick the ancient ancestral group that is present at a higher percentage, and then interpret all of genetics and world history so as to make that particular ancient ancestry "look" better?

    Really, Tomenable? I find it hard to credit that you really think this way, and even harder to fathom how you could have arrived at such a point.

    What I do know is that other than pointing out the blatant mistakes in your posts I'm not interested in debating someone with this mind set. It's a waste of time, because you have no interest in figuring out the truth. You just want to promote your noxious agenda.

    Fair warning, I'm not having this Board go on a watchlist. You continue to post things taken from some white racist, eastern European playbook and there will be consequences.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    That paper is specifically about European hunter-gatherers. Don't pretend that you don't know it.

    It is not about any types of hunter-gatherers living anywhere in the world.

    Why are you so stubborn to prove that everything in Europe came from the Middle East?

    Don't you identify as a European? Italians also have some WHG and EHG. Embrace your HG part too.

    All Europeans are a mix of the same ancestral populations, only in different proportions.

    That's why in PCA all Europeans cluster together and are away from North Africans or Middle Easterners.

    Italians are also genetically closer to other Europeans than they are to present-day MENA populations.



    During some period of time, progress in the Middle East indeed tended to be faster.

    However, progress did not start only with farming. It had started already in the Upper Paleolithic period.

    And progress had been faster among northern hunters than among southern hunters:

    https://unsafeharbour.wordpress.com/...of-inequality/

    Quote:

    "(...) We all know that the early development in agriculture and civilization began in Eurasia - but it goes back much earlier than that. At a somewhat atemporal level, toolkits of hunter-gatherers have been shown to increase in size and complexity with latitude [larger and more complex toolkits in northern latitudes] (Oswalt, 1976) - the driving cause seeming to be the risk of resource failure (Collard et al., 2005). Developments necessary for cold, risk of resource failure… whatever the cause, Foley (1987) writes: 'although there is a general and global technological development during the Pleistocene, it is in high latitudes that it is most marked; in parts of the tropics the artefacts remained simple.' (...)"
    You really don't get it, do you? This has nothing to do with my ethnicity, and it should have nothing to do with yours. It should be based on facts, evidence, evaluated as honestly as possible. I've been studying world history, and pre-history, since before you were born, no doubt, and genetics for ten years, and that's what informs my opinions.

    With the Holocene, there were numerous developments in many fields, including microliths, and they took place in the Near East. Farming developed there, and herding, and metallurgy, and cities, and literacy, all of the hallmarks of civilization. I learned all those things in American universities from professors who were almost all "generic" American. I actually don't remember a single professor who had an Italian last name. Certainly none of them were Middle Eastern. Those are just facts. It doesn't diminish Europeans to acknowledge it. It makes Europeans look ridiculous when they pretend it isn't so. It's just too bad if that conflicts with some idiotic racist notion of yours that the EHG are the supermen of human civilization because that group forms the largest portion of your own ancestry. OUR WHG ancestors, and OUR EHG ancestors had nothing to do with those achievements. Later on, the centers of civilization moved elsewhere. Those are the breaks. Groups are on top and then on bottom and who knows what will happen in the future. We may wind up becoming the serfs of Chinese companies, dying our hair black, and getting eye surgery.

    I find virtually everything you post lately totally biased, poorly reasoned, and often deliberately designed to mislead. Not to mention that you have an appalling lack of knowledge of ancient history. Your latest post is no exception.

    You think that people should or even do apportion their ancient ancestry in their minds, pick the ancient ancestral group that is present at a higher percentage, and then interpret all of genetics and world history so as to make that particular ancient ancestry "look" better?

    Really, Tomenable? I find it hard to credit that you really think this way, and even harder to fathom how you could have arrived at such a point.

    What I do know is that other than pointing out the blatant mistakes in your posts I'm not interested in debating someone with this mind set. It's a waste of time, because you have no interest in figuring out the truth. You just want to promote your noxious agenda.

    Fair warning, I'm not having this Board go on a watchlist. You continue to post things taken from some white racist, eastern European playbook and there will be consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Wrong, the hunters from Karelia ar roughly halfway between Villabrunna and AG3 - you could almost call them a hybrid population.
    AG3 already has WHG admixture. I'm talking about MA-1, and I know I'm right about EHG being closer to WHG than to MA-1


    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    This is pretty straightfoward - the Soyugbulag Kurgans are definiely the first distinct burial mounds of this type. If you are aware of even older Kurgans, please provide your evidence.
    I've posted countless times about the archaeological continuity on the steppe from Samara/Dnieper Donets -> Khvalynsk/Sredny Stog-> Yamnaya. I don't really feel like doing it again tonight.

    The reaches being made with burial practices are absurd. Lets say that the steppe was completely overtaken by these so-called Uruk expansionists. Why then do these cultures all of a sudden look like the same steppe cultures that had been there thousands of years prior?

    **EDIT** and of course everyone ignores the glaring piece of evidence that is the use of ochre

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    I don't really care where Tomenable and the other so called racists are coming from.

    Their points are data driven. Shall we all ignore whats in front of us and follow the social justice script?

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    its so weird, but i guess thats what moves this forum, which is why I suspect a ton of fake accounts e.g. Goga, the perfect euro hater

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I don't really care where Tomenable and the other so called racists are coming from.

    Their points are data driven. Shall we all ignore whats in front of us and follow the social justice script?

    Oh so I guess only Haplogroup's R1b and R1a are white right?
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Oh so I guess only Haplogroup's R1b and R1a are white right?
    This is exactly what I'm talking about and I'm sick of it.

    If you were to tell me that R1a and R1b seem to be the main paternal lines associated with the depigmentation of europe sometime after 2500BC then I would have to agree, and so would you.

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    No I would not agree. I see whites as having many different haplogroups. Though I would say J1 and Q are non white. What makes a neolithic farmer less white than an Indo European?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I don't really care where Tomenable and the other so called racists are coming from.

    Their points are data driven. Shall we all ignore whats in front of us and follow the social justice script?
    Tomenable's points are data driven? Have you been reading all of them and the responses to them?

    What do my posts have to do with a "social justice script"? I'll tell you what...nothing.

    I can't help it if new kinds of points for hunting small game developed in the Near East, or farming, or animal husbandry, or metallurgy, or irrigation, or cities, or literacy. It is what it is. I'm sure neither you nor Tomenable have a problem with saying industrialization started in Great Britain, that the Enlightenment was a western European philosophical movement, that computerization began in the U.S.? I don't think so. Why do Tomenable and his ilk have a problem admitting what anyone who has ever taken an ancient history course knows? Are we supposed to ignore all of the achievements of the ancient Near East because the EHG weren't part of them?

    As for pigmentation, maybe you have a short memory just like Tomenable. Blonde, blue eyed, fair skinned people existed in MN cultures in central Europe, and these cultures didn't carry R1b or R1a. The Anatolian farmers who came to Europe were lighter than the WHG they encountered in Central Europe. THOSE ARE FACTS, but facts that Tomenable, and perhaps you, are unwilling to acknowledge.

    As for the haplogroups that appear in Europe, they all came from elsewhere. Do you doubt it? I'm not sure of the exact movements of the yDna R people, and neither should you be. It's just as likely that with the onset of the LGM they moved south and then spread out from the areas around the Caspian Sea as that they stayed for all of that time somewhere in eastern Europe. Jean Manco promoted that idea of a spread north and south of the Caspian years ago in her book. Is she pursuing a "social justice agenda"? It's absurd. What does it matter, anyway, other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity? Is it better to have stayed in eastern Europe than to have spread out from the Caspian? Why?

    You didn't read that bunk he posted about the original white people were the EHG? How about the people in MN Central Europe and Anatolia who had the same depigmentation snps? They weren't "white"?

    Wow, I really expected better from you, at least.

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    If we compare Mesolithic EHG with present-day inhabitants of Ural-Volga part of Russia, we can see that there has been a significant eastward shift. Modern Uralic-speakers are more eastern genetically than the EHG used to be. Here is a comparison using DNA Land: Samara EHG - 92% European [all 92% of it North-East European], 8% Native American Komi person - 77% European [incl. 70% North-East], 3% Central Asian, 20% East Asian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_peoples Though I suppose that there are differences in % of Asian between individual Komis. Anyway, claiming that the EHG were "Asian" is ridiculous considering that they were not even 1/3 as "Asian" as some modern peoples who are still considered "Caucasoid". ========================= Samara EHG (his Y-DNA haplogroup was R1b and his pigmentation SNPs show that he had blonde hair color and white skin - but I'm not sure about his eye color): A modern Komi person (see post #382 in the thread linked below), when you look at phenotypes of modern Komi, some of them look European, others look intermediate, and some look rather Asian; there is also a large diversity of pigmentation: http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,8508.465.html

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    If we compare Mesolithic EHG with present-day inhabitants of Ural-Volga part of Russia, we can see that there has been some eastward shift. Modern Uralic-speakers are more eastern genetically than the EHG used to be. Here is a comparison using DNA Land:

    Samara EHG - 92% European [all 92% of it North-East European], 8% Native American*
    Karelia EHG - 87% European [all 87% North-East Euro], 12% Native American, 1% Tubalar
    Komi person - 77% European [incl. 70% North-East], 3% Central Asian, 20% East Asian**

    *This Native American is likely "extra ANE" beyond of what is found in modern Europe.

    **His 20% East Asian is: 12% East Turkic + 8% Northeast Asian (Tubalar + Nganasan).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_peoples

    Though I suppose that there are differences in % of Asian between individual Komis.

    =========================

    Karelia EHG (6850-6000 BC):



    Samara EHG (5650-5550 BC):



    Komi (post #382 in this link):

    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,8508.465.html


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    If we compare Mesolithic EHG with present-day inhabitants of Ural-Volga part of Russia, we can see that there has been some eastward shift. Modern Uralic-speakers are more eastern genetically than the EHG used to be. Here is a comparison using DNA Land:

    Karelia EHG (6850-6000 BC) - 87% European [all 87% North-East Euro], 12% Native American, 1% Tubalar

    Samara EHG (5650-5550 BC) - 92% European [all 92% of it North-East European], 8% Native American

    A present-day Komi person - 77% European [incl. 70% North-East], 3% Central Asian, 20% East Asian*

    *His 20% East Asian is: 12% East Turkic + 8% Northeast Asian (Tubalar + Nganasan).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_peoples

    Though I suppose that there are differences in % of Asian between individual Komis.

    =========================

    Karelia EHG (6850-6000 BC):



    Samara EHG (5650-5550 BC):



    Komi (post #382 in this link):

    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,8508.465.html


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The claim that R1a and R1b or even all R are the true "whites" is absolutly ridiculous. Unsupported by Science. There are so many places with insignificant or none R with tons of "west eurasian traits" including fair skin.

    Perhaps and only perhaps, R could be responsible of the red pigmentation together with their other linked physical traits. R can't appropriate all traits found in each one west eurasian population. Just look to R in Cameroon and see what happens when you admixed too much, the same thing happens with E in Germany and the same thing happens with every lineage in every place.

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    Each mutation emerges originally in one person - either male or female. And each person is a carrier of one or two haplogroup(s). So if we know which haplogroup(s) did the original "mutant" have, we can associate early history of a particular trait with a particular haplogroup, as Maciamo did. Western Eurasian lightening mutations are much older than either Anatolian Neolithic or European Mesolithic populations - they date back to the Upper Paleolithic period, as Genetiker wrote (providing a source):

    "This paper from last year dated the coalescence of the SLC24A5 mutation at 28,000–22,000 years ago"

    28,000-22,000 years ago was before haplogroups such as R1a and R1b even emerged. However, haplogroups R and R1 - which were ancestral to R1a and R1b (as well as to R2 in case of R) - already existed. So it is not unreasonable to assume that at least one of the two major skin lightening mutations emerged in a carrier of haplogrup R1 or R - assuming that it emerged in a male person.

    The "first White" could be a woman as well. But maybe she married a guy with R1.

    Mutations can be inherited from both parents, so of course other Y-DNA lineages could become carriers of lightening mutations after inheriting those mutations from their mothers. And daughters could get them from fathers as well.

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    who had the first alleles for white skin does not matter, the alleles were present long before white skin became common

    what matters it to understand when, where, how and why white skin was favoured by natural selection
    the same goes for LP and so many other traits

    we don't have enough data yet to understand the selection

    easier to understand should be LP, and even there we don't know the when, the where and the how

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    Yes Bicicleur, you are right.

    And the idea that white skin became common only after farming has been proven wrong.

    The following evidence shows that this idea is wrong:

    1) Already some of Pre-Farming groups had high frequencies of lightening mutations (including the EHG, the SHG and to a smaller extent also the CHG - and probably ancestors of Anatolian farmers had also been relatively light-skinned already before they became farmers).

    2) Scientists estimate that light skin was being selected for already longbefore the invention of farming: "and this paper from 2012 estimated that the selective sweep for the SLC24A5 mutation started 19,000–11,000 years ago. These estimates are consistent with the Afontova Gora 2 finding."

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    There was enough of R1b in Russia already long before Yamnaya culture emerged. Samara HG, Khvalynsk, etc.
    First, they were not EHG even:

    Srednestog culture sites lie to the west of the Volga,
    in the Don and Dnieper areas (Telegin 1973; Kotova
    2006). It has been established that the second
    stage of the Samara culture was contemporaneous
    with Khvalynsk and Srednestog cultures. The populations
    of these three cultures were engaged in settled
    cattle husbandry (Telegin 1973; Vasilyev 1981;
    Morgunova 1995; 2014).
    Second, they were the product of a mix... and do you guess which Y-DNA carried the outliers?

    As to the ceramics of the first type,
    they are supposed to indicate that people of some
    outlandish culture had entered the areas near the
    Volga and the Urals. As bearers of different cultural
    traditions, as evidenced by the pottery excavated at
    Sjezheye burial ground, the outlandish group appeared
    to be in a vulnerable position because it was not
    numerous (Vasilyeva 2006). It had to be assimilated
    into the local environment by the group that produced
    the second type of pottery which is found at other
    sites in the Volga area, such as at the Lebjazhinka III
    settlement. Consequently, the Samara culture emerged,
    which marked the onset of the Eneolithic period
    in the Volga area.
    ref: "Pottery from the Volga area in the Samara and South Urals region from Eneolithic to Early Bronze Age"

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    First, they were not EHG even:



    Second, they were the product of a mix... and do you guess which Y-DNA carried the outliers?



    ref: "Pottery from the Volga area in the Samara and South Urals region from Eneolithic to Early Bronze Age"
    IMO at one point, the whole Pontic steppe became dominated by only 2 tribes : R1b-M269 and R1b-M73
    all the others moved or got extinct

    R-P297YSC0000269/PF6475/S17 * PF6498 * PF6463+45 SNPsformed 16800 ybp, TMRCA 13400 ybpinfo
    • R-P297*
    • R-M478Y13204 * Y13208 * Y13202+34 SNPsformed 13400 ybp, TMRCA 7300 ybpinfo
      • R-M478*
      • R-Y14051Y14051 * Y14062 * L1433+46 SNPsformed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybpinfo
        • id:YF03179
          UKR [UA-05]
        • id:YF03139

      • R-Y20747Y20779 * Y20759 * Y20757+42 SNPsformed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 1100 ybpinfo

    • R-M269CTS11468/PF6520 * PF6495 * PF6437+82 SNPsformed 13400 ybp, TMRCA 6400 ybpinfo
      • R-M269*
      • R-PF7562PH1631/V2850 * Z29759/FGC31957/BY1713 * Z29761/FGC31966/BY2098+10 SNPsformed 6400 ybp, TMRCA 5000 ybpinfo

      • R-L23PF6404 * L478/PF6403 * L23/S141/PF6534formed 6400 ybp, TMRCA 6300 ybpinfo


    R-P297 is 16800 years old, but only 2 tribes survived, TMRCA 7300 and 6400, both on the Pontic steppe


    as for pottery, chack arrival of mtDNA C, D and Z1a in Karelia and Dnjepr Donets culture, and even Hungary

    Körös Hungary Vörs 52
    5500 BC

    C5 Guba 2011

    it was women who spread pottery to Eruope, not men
    Last edited by bicicleur; 06-09-16 at 14:05.

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    Berun,

    Karelian EHG and Samara EHG were pretty much identical autosomally.

    We have known about this already since their genomes were published.

    But I checked them also with "DNA Land" to confirm this:

    https://s21.postimg.io/m41djj66f/EHG_autosomal.png

    Karelia: 87% North-East European + 12% Native American
    Samara: 92% North-East European + 8% Native American




    By comparison - here is Villabruna WHG with "DNA Land":

    Villabruna: 77% North-East European + 23% West European


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    By the way, the name "North Slavic" is a bit misleading.

    This component peaks in Lithuanians and Belarusians, but is also common in Germanics.

    For example this is a modern Austrian from Lavanttal:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavanttal

    Austrian: 25% North-West Euro + 49% North-East Euro + 24% Southern Euro



    And this is Swedish Battle Axe RISE98 (with R1b-U106):

    RISE98: 50% North-West Euro + 46% North-East Euro + 3% Southern Euro



    Austrian is more southern and relatively (compared to % of North-West component) more eastern.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 06-09-16 at 14:45.

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    @bicicleur

    Neolithic women alone don't go to dwell among hunter gatherers

    @Tomenable
    Better this figure then:

    HaakPCA.jpg

    You can look at the 10% of the greenish Caucasian in Samara_HG... maybe his grand-grand-grandfather was a Caucasian.

    By the way someone could run an admixture test for the I0124 guy with the recent Iranian and Caucasian old DNA published?

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Better this figure then:
    Karelia HG also has this "greenish" component there, just a bit less.

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    Hallo to all,
    I am new and I'm not expert in the area, but I find Geneaology forum very informative and I enjoy reading it. THANKS TO ALL PARTICPANTS!

    I dont't like to differ from the main subject, but I have seen the ma of Y - I2c where Slovenia is empasised and I have some questions.
    What happened with I2Din North and IDin Souh? Are they reduced or renamed? Do we have somewhere maps of them? I am not aware of I2c being in the range 1-5 % in Slovenia.

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