Eneolithic aDNA from Lake Baikal Siberia

The R1a1 in EN Lokomotiv may be the oldest R1a found to date, with a rather typically East Eurasian mtdna profile. I think these findings should induce many people to rethink their assumptions about the dispersal of this haplogroup.
 
Maciamo said:
What is more surprising in this paper is the presence of R1a1 among Early Neolithic farmers. I suppose that they were assimilated along the (very long) way from the Pontic Steppe to Lake Baikal. Haplogroups C3 and Q1a3 were probably both present in the Lake Baikal region before the Neolithic. I seriously doubt that the Bronze Age Q1a3 represent the new migrants that brought the bronze age from the west. They are just assimilated locals.
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I think they were Neolithic hunter gatherers. Also, it's unlikely IMO that farmers from West Asia would make it to Lake Baikal unadmixed. mtDNA from Neolithic Lake Baikal is mostly East Asian and has no West Asian lineages. West Asian lineages; T, J, H, etc, don't appear till Andronovo(who was like 50% West Asian) arrived. The R1a1 just looks to be reflective of their genetic relationship to hunter gatherers in European Russia(EHG) as does their mtDNA U5a. It isn't a suprise, infact it would be suprising if they had no R1, considering they have some mtDNa U5a .
 
MarkoZ said:
The R1a1 in EN Lokomotiv may be the oldest R1a found to date, with a rather typically East Eurasian mtdna profile. I think these findings should induce many people to rethink their assumptions about the dispersal of this haplogroup.
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The one in Karelia is the oldest. The finding of R1a1 in Neolithic Lake Baikal was expected and changes nothing about our opinons about R1a1 origins.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
The one in Karelia is the oldest. The finding of R1a1 in Neolithic Lake Baikal was expected and changes nothing about our opinons about R1a1 origins.
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Can you provide a source for that? The rc-dates for Lokomotiv I've seen range from 8100-6900 BP.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
I think they were Neolithic hunter gatherers. Also, it's unlikely IMO that farmers from West Asia would make it to Lake Baikal unadmixed. mtDNA from Neolithic Lake Baikal is mostly East Asian and has no West Asian lineages. West Asian lineages; T, J, H, etc, don't appear till Andronovo(who was like 50% West Asian) arrived. The R1a1 just looks to be reflective of their genetic relationship to hunter gatherers in European Russia(EHG) as does their mtDNA U5a. It isn't a suprise, infact it would be suprising if they had no R1, considering they have some mtDNa U5a .
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So your evidence for an alleged 'EHG' (that's awfully specific for a haplogroup of this age) migration all across Eurasia is a single U5a in Lokomotiv? Just stop.
 
MarkoZ said:
So your evidence for an alleged 'EHG' (that's awfully specific for a haplogroup of this age) migration all across Eurasia is a single U5a in Lokomotiv? Just stop.
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There's also loads of U4 and U2e from other pre-farming Siberians. Those are the signature EHG mtDNA haplogroups. R1a1 and R1b1 are the signature EHG Y DNA haplogroups, so it is no surprise to find R1a1 Y DNA in the same people who had some U5a mtDNA.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
There's also loads of U4 and U2e from other pre-farming Siberians. Those are the signature EHG mtDNA haplogroups. R1a1 and R1b1 are the signature EHG Y DNA haplogroups, so it is no surprise to find R1a1 Y DNA in the same people who had some U5a mtDNA.
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Cheddar Gorge/Loschbour are 'EHGs'?

R1b1 is an 'EHG' marker?

I'd ask you to explain your reasoning behind these claims, but that's just too absurd.
 
Alan said:
If Eneolithic Siberia was Q1a before R1a1 or anything else. How can some individuals still claim R1 Haplogroups reached the Steppes directly from Siberia via the "North Eurasian route"? I bet my money on South_Central Asia being the homeland of R1a in the Steppes.
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Surely R1 folks migrated from Siberia via Central Asia and entered Europe from the Iranian Plateau.

11216045.jpg
 
Alpenjager said:
Maciamo, haplogroup T-M184 has been only found in some Lithuanian populations but not Estonian. In Estonia is found L2-L595 and L1-M22.

About mtDNA in Kazakhs from Kosh-Agachsky District are found:
R = 43.7% (R0 = 13.1%, R10 = 1.4%, F = 3,5%, U = 14%, JT = 5.5%, B = 6.2%) and N = 17.8% (N1 = 5.5%, N9 = 6% and A= 6.3%).


R = 43.7%

R0 = 13.1%
13.1% H

1.4% R10

3.5% F =>Found together R1a1 in Early Neolithic Lokomotiv<=

U = 14%
3.5% pre-K
0.7 U
0.7 U1b
1.4% U3
0.7% U4
5.6% U5 =>Found in Early Neolithic Lokomotiv<=
1.4% U7

JT = 5.5%
0.7 J
4.8% T2a

6.2% B

N = 17.8%

N1 = 5.5%
3.4% I
2.1% N1a

N9 = 6%
5.3% N9
0.7% Y

6.3% A =>Found together C3 in Early Neolithic Lokomotiv<= =>Found together K* in Early Neolithic Shamanka II<=


mtDNA modern Buryats from Lake Baikal (Pakendorf 2003);

Sample 1 = 61
R = 8.1%
F = 1.6% =>Found together R1a1 in Early Neolithic Lokomotiv<=
B = 4.9%
H = 1.6%

N = 1.6%

Sample 2 = 25
R = 28%
B = 4%
H = 4%
V = 4%
J = 4%
U = 12% =>Found in Early Neolithic Lokomotiv<=

Sample 3 = 295
R = 21.7%
B = 3.4%
F = 3.1% =>Found together R1a1 in Early Neolithic Lokomotiv<=
R* = 0.3%
H = 6.8%
HV = 1%
J = 0.7%
T = 1%
UK = 5.4% =>Found in Early Neolithic Lokomotiv<=

N = 9.4%
N* = 2.4%
A = 5% =>Found together C3 in Early Neolithic Lokomotiv<= =>Found together K* in Early Neolithic Shamanka II<=
Y = 1.4%
I = 0.3%
X = 0.3%
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It's interesting that HV and U3 also show up in that region alongside N1a and I. These are the haplogroups that I linked to the original T1a Neolithic tribes based on data from Northeast Africa (see above link).

Y-haplogroup T was found in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic Levant and in the LBK culture, so it surely played a major role in the early development of agriculture, or more specifically goat/sheep domestication as it is found at high frequencies in the Horn of Africa, where people have been goat/sheep and cattle herders since the Neolithic (cattle would have been brought by R1b-V88, found at high frequency in the Hausa of Sudan).
 
Surely people are aware of R1b-L754 and its relation to R1a on the R1 tree? Since finding Neadertal admixture in Villabruna L754+[12 200-11 800 BC] sample in non trivial amounts. Suggesting an area inhabited by Neadertal. Villabruna (Italia), Epigravettian, 12 200-11 800 BC I0122, Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara (Russia), 5200-4000 BCE
 
Has this paper been posted yet? It's 2016, so pretty up to date...

See:
[h=1]"Biogeochemical data from the Shamanka II Early Neolithic cemetery on southwest Baikal: Chronological and dietary patterns."[/h][h=2]"Abstract[/h]A data set of 116 AMS radiocarbon dates on human skeletal remains from an Early Neolithic (c. 7500–6700 cal BP) Shamanka II cemetery on Lake Baikal, Siberia, and associated carbon and nitrogen stable isotope values are analyzed for insights about site chronology and dietary variation of this group of hunter–gatherers. All dates are corrected for the Freshwater Reservoir Effect (FRE) according to the correction equations developed using paired radiocarbon dates on human and terrestrial faunal remains from the same graves (Bronk Ramsey et al., 2014; Schulting et al., 2014). Further examination of the data set provides the following main findings. First, it identified the presence of two phases of cemetery use at Shamanka II, each of quite different duration, separated by a relatively long period of disuse lasting as much as 300–550 years. Second, it demonstrated presence of four groups of people during the long Phase 1 each with a slightly different dietary pattern: three displaying a temporal change toward greater reliance on aquatic foods and one group, which apparently did not experience a diet shift. Third, the results show that all individuals from the short Phase 2 evince a clear chronological trend towards increased dietary contribution of aquatic food and that this pattern repeats closely one of the three trends present in Phase 1. While a generally similar chronological dietary trend has been found recently also among the Early Neolithic groups from the nearby Angara valley (Weber et al., 2015), the Shamanka II population appears to be much more diverse in dietary terms than its neighbours to the northeast."

I think the difference may have been based on regional resource variation.

There's also this book with a nice section on the Lake Baikal Neolithic settlements. The craniometry seems to indicate the arrival of a new group in the late Neolithic, which they date to 6200 BP.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Q...e&q=Lake Baikal Neolithic settlements&f=false

There doesn't seem to have been any substantial change in lifestyle or culture with the advent of the metal ages, other than that they incorporated some copper alloy tools and ornaments.
 
MarkoZ said:
The rc-dates for Lokomotiv I've seen range from 8100-6900 BP.
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Where did you see these dates ??? I've seen 7250–6040 years BP (6125–4885 years BC).

This is from Mooder et al. 2006 who published some mtDNA from the Lokomotiv cemetery:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16323184

Quote: "Noncalibrated radiocarbon dates (Isotrace, University of Toronto) from Lokomotiv suggest that this cemetery was used from approximately 7250–6040 BP. These dates correspond to the period between 6125–4885 BC when calibrated with the methodology of Stuiver et al. (1998)"

MarkoZ said:
Can you provide a source for that?
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See Extended Data Table 1 from Fu et al., "The Genetic History of Ice Age Europe", 2016:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301742169_The_genetic_history_of_Ice_Age_Europe

Karelian R1a is dated to 8800–7950 years BP in this study: https://s21.postimg.io/4z3cnibiv/Karelian_HG.png

"Ancestral Journeys" dates it to 6850–6000 years BC: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

Karelian_HG.png
 
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bicicleur said:
isn't the Buthanese T2 ?

this is Ray Banks :

•T2 PH110 (2913966 G->T) Armenians, ?Bhutanese

I guess in Y Full it is T*

TL452 * CTS573 * CTS11511/PF5582+240 SNPsformed 42600 ybp, TMRCA 26800 ybpinfo
  • T*
    • id:YF03586
  • T-L206CTS10618 * Y3821/Z19862 * L490+91 SNPsformed 26800 ybp, TMRCA 16000 ybp

split from T1-L206 26800 years ago
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T2 - PH110 and all the others SNP's found with it is a new line only discovered this year.................too early to decipher anything
 
Maciamo said:
It's interesting that HV and U3 also show up in that region alongside N1a and I. These are the haplogroups that I linked to the original T1a Neolithic tribes based on data from Northeast Africa (see above link).

Y-haplogroup T was found in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic Levant and in the LBK culture, so it surely played a major role in the early development of agriculture, or more specifically goat/sheep domestication as it is found at high frequencies in the Horn of Africa, where people have been goat/sheep and cattle herders since the Neolithic (cattle would have been brought by R1b-V88, found at high frequency in the Hausa of Sudan).
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The only "herder" marker which makes sense due to age and geography from the ancient times is R1b-V88 .......they came from north of the zargos mountains and travelled through the levant into egypt, east-africa, north africa, sub-sahara, west africa, arabian peninsula and more..................its the only marker which could have herded cattle, sheep and goats and has no "farming" finds to them.
 
Tomenable said:
Where did you see these dates ??? I've seen 7250–6040 years BP (6125–4885 years BC).

This is from Mooder et al. 2006 who published some mtDNA from the Lokomotiv cemetery:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16323184

Quote: "Noncalibrated radiocarbon dates (Isotrace, University of Toronto) from Lokomotiv suggest that this cemetery was used from approximately 7250–6040 BP. These dates correspond to the period between 6125–4885 BC when calibrated with the methodology of Stuiver et al. (1998)"



See Extended Data Table 1 from Fu et al., "The Genetic History of Ice Age Europe", 2016:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301742169_The_genetic_history_of_Ice_Age_Europe

Karelian R1a is dated to 8800–7950 years BP in this study: https://s21.postimg.io/4z3cnibiv/Karelian_HG.png

"Ancestral Journeys" dates it to 6850–6000 years BC: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

Karelian_HG.png
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Fair enough, I think I had the uncalibrated dates in mind. However, I could not confirm the dates postulated in this image of yours for the hunter gatherer from the Oleni Ostrov cemetery. The actual date appears to be 7,500 BP.

Also, R1b1 is emphatically not an 'EHG' marker - it's too old to be assigned to any kind of autosomal makeup. The fact that you insist that it is only reveals your bias.
 
Y-chromosome data from different localities of Hulun Buir Aimak, Inner Mongolia (Malyarchuk 2016):

Barghuts (n=76)
C2c1a1a1-M40755.3%
N1c1-Tat27.6%
C2-M21710.5%
T1a-M70 1.3%
R2a-M124 1.3%
O2-M122 1.3%
J2a-M410 1.3%
G-M201 1.3%

"In the 12–13th centuries, the Barga (Barghuts) Mongols appeared as tribes near Lake Baikal, named Bargujin."
 
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MarkoZ said:
Fair enough, I think I had the uncalibrated dates in mind. However, I could not confirm the dates postulated in this image of yours for the hunter gatherer from the Oleni Ostrov cemetery. The actual date appears to be 7,500 BP.
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This is inaccurate, obsolete dating. More recent dating done with more accurate techniques shows 8800-8000 BP.

Let's stick to the most recent available dates. This 8800-8000 BP has been published in 2016, a few months ago.

By the way - even 7500 BP would be still older than Lokomotiv (which was dated to 7250-6040 BP).

MarkoZ said:
Also, R1b1 is emphatically not an 'EHG' marker - it's too old to be assigned to any kind of autosomal makeup.
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The most striking evidence that R1b is an EHG marker is the almost total lack of R1b in aDNA from places other than Russia before the Bronze Age. The majority of Mesolithic, Neolithic and Copper Age samples of R1b are from Russia. The "Big Picture" which emerges from aDNA when it comes to dominant haplogroups in various regions prior to the Neolithization of Europe, is this:

Region: dominant "indigeneous" Y-DNA haplogroups

1. Western and Central Europe: I2a, I1, I2c, C1a2
2. European part of Russia: R1a, R1b, Q1a
3. Caucasus region (Georgia): J1b, J2a
4. Western Asia*: G2, E1, J2, R2, T, G1, H2, L1, F3

*Mostly samples from Anatolia, the Levant and from Iran.

The most mysterious - due to their scarcity in aDNA so far - are haplogroups J1 and N1c. We have J1b in a hunter-gatherer from Georgia, but then there is a long "gap" and the next relevant sample - J1a dated to 2500-1950 BC - is from the Levant (Ain Ghazal, Early Bronze Age). When it comes to N1c the oldest sample in Europe, dated to 2500 BC, is from the region of Smolensk.

It seems, that J1 was a relatively minor lineage until it became associated with Proto-Semitic people and then spread with them. Today, many subclades of J1a and also some subclades of J1b correlate strongly with populations of Semitic origin.

any kind of autosomal makeup.
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I used the term "EHG" in its geographical meaning. EHG = Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer. No matter what autosomal makeup someone had, if he lived in Eastern Europe (including the European part of Russia) and was a hunter-gatherer (or descended primarily from local Eastern hunter-gatherers), then I use the term "EHG" to denote such a prehistoric person. It is possible indeed, that there were several hunter-gatherer groups with different autosomal makeups living in prehistoric Easternmost Europe.

So I'm not saying that "autosomally EHG people" were the only group of hunter-gatherers in Mesolithic Eastern Europe. There could be some autosomally Non-EHG groups in that region as well. However, there is no evidence for this so far.
 
Tomenable said:
Region: dominant "indigeneous" Y-DNA haplogroups

1. Western and Central Europe: I2a, I1, I2c, C1a2
2. European part of Russia: R1a, R1b, Q1a
3. Caucasus region (Georgia): J1b, J2a
4. Western Asia*: G2, E1, J2, R2, T, G1, H2, L1, F3

*Mostly samples from Anatolia, the Levant and from Iran.
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I would do some changes to your list:


1. Western and Central Europe: I2a, I2c, C1a2, C1b
2. Southeastern Europe / Anatolia: G2, I1, T1a, H2, L1a, I2c, R1b, C1a2
3. Scandinavia: I2a, I2c
4. European part of Russia: J1, R1a, R1b
5. Caucasus region (Georgia): J1b, J2a
6. Western Asia: R2, G1, J2
7. Africa / Levant: E1b
 
3. Scandinavia: I2a, I2c
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And I1 as well. Stora Förvar sample StF11 dated to 5500-5250 BC has been confirmed to be I1-M253.

European part of Russia: J1, R1a, R1b
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Why is J1 listed first when we have more samples of both R1a and R1b? And we have one Q1a sample as well.

That J1 singleton / outlier was probably an extinct subclade - so I didn't consider it as part of the "Big Picture".

2. Southeastern Europe / Anatolia: G2, I1, T1a, H2, L1a, I2c, R1b
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There are actually no any samples of either I1 or R1b from Anatolia that are older than the Bronze Age.

I2c in Anatolia was the result of admixture with WHG (Western Anatolians had ~15% of WHG ancestry).

=================================

StF11 from Scandinavia has been confirmed to be I1-M253 by several researchers (including Genetiker).

Here is a list of several samples of I and C (it doesn't include most recent samples from Fu et al. 2016):

The two oldest samples of I1 are from Scandinavia (Stora Karlsö) and from Central Europe (Hungary):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stora_Karlsö

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balatonszemes

HG_samples.png
 
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