Eneolithic aDNA from Lake Baikal Siberia

[bicicleur 2]

@bicicleur

Neolithic women alone don't go to dwell among hunter gatherers



By the way someone could run an admixture test for the I0124 guy with the recent Iranian and Caucasian old DNA published?

most HG were exogamous, which means they look for brides outside the tribe

neolithic in Siberia were not farmers, they were HG with pottery

 

[berun]

You can get a paper checking the exchange of mtDNA between Bantus and Pygmies (also exogamous) and you will find out that it's not so: there is exchange between Pygmi women to Bantus, but no Bantu women to Pygmies.

The HG with pottery was the Elshanka culture, the Samara and Khavalynsk were already herders.

@Tomenable, if the Karelian has the greenish mark will be because we don't know all the picture, but a possible track could be a J in Mesolithic Russia.

 

[Aaron1981]

The claim that R1a and R1b or even all R are the true "whites" is absolutly ridiculous. Unsupported by Science. There are so many places with insignificant or none R with tons of "west eurasian traits" including fair skin.

Perhaps and only perhaps, R could be responsible of the red pigmentation together with their other linked physical traits. R can't appropriate all traits found in each one west eurasian population. Just look to R in Cameroon and see what happens when you admixed too much, the same thing happens with E in Germany and the same thing happens with every lineage in every place.

I am not sure if we can say R1b and R1a are true "whites" and the others not, but I would say that at minimum R1b, R1a, and I are the true Europeans. It is quite clear that G-P303 for instance originates in the Middle East, where as it is far more difficult to construct an argument that the former three did.

At what point do you get considered European? I don't know...will I ever be considered a Native American? Doubtful

 

[bicicleur 2]

pottery came through HG on the Siberian steppe to Europe

http://archaeology.org.az/pdf/AASIA&E presentation7.pdf

 

[Alan]

Karelia is still older, but not by much. It doesn't matter though. To say that R1b appears to have originated among hunters in Europe and on the Eurasian steppe is a correct statement.

Villabruna is a proto-EHG.

Please convince me otherwise. I think the best you'll get is for me to change my statement to "Villabruna looks exactly like one would expect a proto-EHG to look like."

And we have R* in Siberia 20k bp, which appears to be unrelated to Villabruna. This just tells me that R has been on the Eurasian steppe following herds from, at the latest the LGM, all the way to the Mesolithic. Long enough to have been a Y-HG in many different populations. In fact, MA-1 appears to share a common ancestor with all of the ice age populations of Europe.

**EDIT** Kura axes is the oldest R1b found yet in West Asia. This is seen after we see a sharp rise in admixture between all these populations.

Where did you catch this up? Do you have any evidence for that. As far as I remember Villabruna can be modeled as WHG with some EEF and ANE like admixture that resembles the one more that has contributed to CHG and Iran_Neo than EHG.

more correct it would be to say Iran_Neo is Basal Eurasian+ something Villabruna like.

Mark my words you pro EHG dudes will make a 180 degree turn when mesolithic samples from South_Central Asia turn out to be this Villabruna like cluster that contributed to both EHG and Iran_Neo/CHG.

R1b and R1a in EUrppe and the Steppes are the oldest samples because these regions are the most sampled. Not because the samples found are actually basal. I have yet to see a single basal R1a l62 or R1b m343 from Europe or the Steppes.

Kura-Araxes certanly has no real EHG admixture so does not the Tepe Hasanlu sample.

 

[Alan]

We already have mtDNA from Maykop and it does not match mtDNA from the Steppe / Yamna.

Moreover, the issue of PIE is all about expansions of language and people, not cultural trends.

Maykop culture were most certainly speakers of one of languages of the Caucasus, not of IE:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Caucasus

All these mtDNA prove up to date is that the CHG like admixture did not came via bride exchange/kidnapping as some bloggers claimed. But if not from Maykop where did the CHG came from to Yamnaya? Somewhere it must have come? Maykop culture is certanly proto Yamna and the Kurgans there are said to predate those in Yamnaya and be Leyla Tepe derived. Something doesn't fit there, now does it?

I think there are only three explanations for this.

1. the CHG came via South_Central Asia and in fact the whole Yamnaya package formed even there when Neolithic Iran_Neo like farmers met EHG like herders in South_Central Asia
2. CHG was on the Steppes prior to the EHG and is very old there.
3. CHG didn't actually come via females rom Maykop (absurd theory knowing that whole Yamna looks just like a copy of Maykop) but via males and R1b l23 is actually a Maykop marker and came from the same source as the R1b in Kura Araxes.

 

[Alan]

Wrong, the hunters from Karelia ar roughly halfway between Villabrunna and AG3 - you could almost call them a hybrid population.

This^. People still take EHG as a proxy while after the finding of Villabruna the scientists are pretty much convinced that EHG is basically a merge of something Villabruna like and AG3. While Iran_Neo and CHG seem to be a merge of something Villabruna like and Basal Eurasian.

 

[Alan]

But the WHG lived in Western Europe. Eastern European EHG and Scandinavian SHG were much lighter.

Some people haven't quite absorbed the fact that Eastern Europe - and not Western Europe - was the "cradle of White people".

Also, the WHG contribution to modern European gene pool seems to be very limited, if we look at this:

https://s12.postimg.io/bszjn5fbx/sweeping_migrations.png

Grey component was present in Mesolithic Russia among the EHG, and later in the Pontic Steppe
Blue component was present in Mesolithic Western Europe among the WHG, and in Scandinavia

Bronze Age Europeans had much more of grey component (ultimately derived from the EHG). Also as a matter of fact the EHG and the later Steppe groups (Copper Age and Bronze Age) were generally lighter-pigmented than Anatolian farmers.

So Northern European pigmentation does not come from Anatolia, but from those "Aryans" in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe.

Look at modern Sardinians or Sicilians - their moderately light pigmentation indeed comes from Anatolian farmers.

Some people apparently still haven't quite absorbed the fact that, originally, "White" = "Indo-European".

OK, OK, you are going to respond: "but the Yamnaya were still in fact quite swarthy!". Maybe they were.

But there were other Bronze Age Steppe groups, such as Srubnaya or Sintashta, who were much lighter.

The Grey component is not EHG. Grey component EHG/Iran_CHL+CHG. I think you know that.

 

[Alpenjager]

It's interesting that HV and U3 also show up in that region alongside N1a and I. These are the haplogroups that I linked to the original T1a Neolithic tribes based on data from Northeast Africa (see above link).

Y-haplogroup T was found in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic Levant and in the LBK culture, so it surely played a major role in the early development of agriculture, or more specifically goat/sheep domestication as it is found at high frequencies in the Horn of Africa, where people have been goat/sheep and cattle herders since the Neolithic (cattle would have been brought by R1b-V88, found at high frequency in the Hausa of Sudan).

I remembered that Flegontov 2016 found 1% of T among Estonians together with L but all other Estonian studies show only L haplotypes.

 

[MOESAN]

At the mergin I put my foot on this unsteady ground. Only to say my point until I know more.
1- "white" for me is not the US standard definition; 'caucasoids' - based upon the majority of other genes - are not all of them purely "white"; but true near-eastern people and even original Arabs are "whire for me" because the most of them share the same skin colour mutations as western Europeans; what makes a distinction is the overdepigmentation concerning less skin than eye and hairs, overduepigmentation which is not level among Europeans according to regions spite absent in almost NO region;
2- the mutations giving way to this overdepigmentation seem born in relatively southern countries (Anatolia by instance, even Iran perhaps); but the today distribution of blondism and also in light eyes for the most in Europe is selfspeaking: it is not a late effect of selection, but the effect of colonization (unlevel) apparently come from North-East or East, after some kind of selection there I ignore its precise causes; so I think in Northwestern Steppes and Southeast Baltic; it could be STATISTICALLY linked to the kind of Y-R1a and Y-R1b which reached Europe between 4000 and 2500 BC; Southern Europe and Western Europe were previously dark pigmented as a whole with some exceptions concerning only eyes colour; it's not the effect of Sarrasins invasions or other colonisation for me;
3- I will not make offense to anybody by saying Y-haplos have some direct link with pigmentation! I speak here of result of History: selection of any sort, hazards, collective moves and so on.