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Thread: My map of haplogroup R1a in Greece & surroundings

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    My map of haplogroup R1a in Greece & surroundings

    Here is my map of frequency of haplogroup R1a in Greece:

    b.d. (grey area) = no data collected

    (black dots = places where samples of people come from):

    https://s31.postimg.org/jkt8tday3/R1a_in_Greece.jpg


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    Interesting why there is a place with above 20% of R1a in a part of Crete. Above 20% of R1a in a part of central Greece is also interesting. Interesting is also how much I2a-L621 is in Greece and its surroundings (especially non-Slavic countries).

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    Quote Originally Posted by lyakh View Post
    Interesting why there is a place with above 20% of R1a in a part of Crete. Above 20% of R1a in a part of central Greece is also interesting. Interesting is also how much I2a-L621 is in Greece and its surroundings (especially non-Slavic countries).

    About Crete, maybe reason of people who settled there after Cretean Turks left the Island (Red Turks)

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    I believe we would find more, at Central and North and N west Greece,

    the hole case of R1a in Greece and some other areas like S Italy and S minor Asia is just the story of Dorian descent and Makedonian/ Argeiad start

    search more the colonies of Dorians at S Italy like Locri and South of Smyrne,

    Then you will see exactly that fits with from what Τριχακες ment,

    I am expecting more than 25% in core of Central and North of continental Greece,

    The strange is that you have too much in Thrace, I am expecting less there, about 12 %

    Interesting would be to post the more deep kind of R1a


    PS

    lately i have found a book that contanis all the Slavic toponyms in Greece and are much,
    as excpected I2 is stronger there, and more strange is that some are never mentioned in history as occupied or even raided by Slavs,
    The straneg of R1a is that since Dorian, and follows all the Dorian way to Sparta, even at your map modern Sparta has less than expected.

    PS2
    As for Crete we know than Dorians occupied the West part of the island till White mountains,
    it is clearly at your map the area, but seems later times that HG was pushed and limited to very south and mountains,
    areas were not even Romans entered,


    PS3

    in fact the shape of R1a Hg expand in Greece,
    SHOWS CLEARLY THAT R1a IS NOT A CLEAR MARK OF SLAVS, SINCE EXISTED MORE THAN 3500 IN BALKANS
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Here are frequencies of R1a in Sicily:

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...2008120t1.html



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    Many ancient authors wrote that the hinterland of Thessaloniki was most heavily settled by Slavs and that this was their main attempted target to capture. It makes sense to suggest that in ancient Greece there was more R1a-Z282 than Z93 as much as R1b-Z2103 was more than R1b-P312. It is unsuprising that only in Sicily Z93 is the most common branch. However, the branch in the rest of Italy and southern Greece is consistent. But in Greek Macedonia the ratio of M458:Z280 is 5:1, (Underhill 2009) the strangest ever found. Although in Italy there is M458-L260 from the Goths, there is no M458-L1029, which is the main branch in northern Greece, consistent with Bulgaria and Macedonia rather than southern Greece. L1029 is a very young subclade of M458, which originated in the distinction of Lechitic and Czech tribes, so it came with the Slavs. Z280 in south Greece must be either from the other Slav tribes (Scalvenes, not Antes), or probably from assimilated Thracians, because it does not make sense that it was brought from Anatolia by the Greco-Anatolians either. It is hard to find out why if Z93 is the most common branch in Sicily, then Z282 would be the one in ancient Greeks. A likely source is Byzantine Slavs for the elevated frequency in some regions of Sicily, or probably Normans.

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    Map of R1a in Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo and the surroundings

    I am tempted to complete that map hoping that you don't hold any copyrights and I did it, don't worry I will delete it if you say so.

    There is mine map of haplogroup R1a in Greece:
    https://s13.postimg.org/h2vf3ztkn/R1a_in_Greece.jpg



    This is the map of the subclades of R1a

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belmonde View Post
    I am tempted to complete that map hoping that you don't hold any copyrights and I did it, don't worry I will delete it if you say so.

    There is mine map of haplogroup R1a in Greece:
    https://s13.postimg.org/h2vf3ztkn/R1a_in_Greece.jpg
    I actually hold copy rights to that map, because I personally made that map. But I see that you have added some new interesting data. So let's make a deal, send me the statistical data that you used and I will send you my data that I had originally used. I guess that together we will make a better map. BTW, my total sample size for entire Greece was 1032 people including 125 R1a.

    Do not delete it, you made a good job completing my map, just send me all of "raw data" that you used.

    Can you summarize what do these new studies say compared to the old one? What are the frequencies?

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    Belmonde, I see that you actually changed the frequencies in some of sampling locations from my map.

    On what basis did you make these changes? My map was based on 1032 Greek men from 22 locations.

    Frequency for entire sample was 12,1% (125 men), a bit less than Greek average (16,3%) in this study:

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html

    Did you change the frequencies based on your own ideas, or based on some hard data?

    But you also added some new sampling locations, including 2 in Creete. What are these?

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    ^^^ Based on that sample of 1032 Greeks, I also recently made these two things:

    1) A PCA graph with convex hulls (there are two main clusters) and loadings biplot:

    Red font shows two main haplogroups by area:

    http://i.imgur.com/pbbyzjo.png



    2) A map of clustering and two main haplogroups by area (based on data and PCA):

    https://i.imgur.com/lJx60C5.png


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    Map of R1a in Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and the surroundings

    Based on the data of 1100 Greeks from the Genographic Project here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-origin/page11 I updated the map
    Last edited by Belmonde; 29-01-17 at 01:34. Reason: attached files

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belmonde View Post
    I am tempted to complete that map hoping that you don't hold any copyrights and I did it, don't worry I will delete it if you say so.

    There is mine map of haplogroup R1a in Greece:
    https://s13.postimg.org/h2vf3ztkn/R1a_in_Greece.jpg



    This is the map of the subclades of R1a
    If this map is accurate the calls "Macedonia is Greece" is bolloni. From the map looks like Macedonia is Bulgaria genetically at least.

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    It looks like the R1a in Northern Albania, Bosnia, Southern Serbia is local version

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    From the map of R1a it can not be said that R1a subclade in Europe is related to Slavs.

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    I don't deny the genetic similarities of modern Macedonians (Greeks and Slavspeaking ones). The influence of the Slavs in the area after their arrival at 6th century AD, is well known and have changed dramatically the picture with their invasions + permanent settlements.

    On the other hand, this map points out only the dominant R1a subclade, between modern pops and nothing more. Would be illogical if another R1a subclade was arithmetically superior to the Bulgarian derived one, in Greek Macedonia, so no surprises. It's a not stable generalization to state "Macedonia is genetically Bulgarian", because of this map. And if we add the current inhabitants of the Aegean Macedonia, it's a completely different conversation.

    Just FYI, the genetic makeup of the Greek pops that inhabit the Aegean Macedonia now, is much much different. More than half of them, are 2nd, 3rd and 4th descendants of the Greek refugees that came at the 1920s from Asia Minor and during the pogroms + the population exchange.

    Eventhough their genetic print is spread to the whole country (imagine that we are talking about 1,5 million people that have been added to only 4,5 million Helladic Greeks!), in Macedonia they made a bigger impact. This is because their majority were placed there for various reasons.

    If you meet 10 random Greeks from Macedonian now, 8 of them would have at least a grandparent (many all of their 4), that came from Constantinople/Smyrna/Asia Minor shores/East Thrace/Cappadocia/Pontus.

    Of course this is not possible to measured in such maps and tables, and these spreadsheets take in consideration only the 4grandparented Greek Macedonian from Macedonia, who of course is heavily Slav admixed.



    Sent from my Robin

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    Haplogroup accounts for 2 percent DNA. Majority of which is autosomal and reflects genetic drift. Autosomal is a clear marker of ones genetic make up.

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    The Macedonians in Aegian Macedonia lived there long before Hellens settle the coastline areas, Modern Greeks genocided the endopi (original settlers) of what become north Greece last century.. Here is the simple truth: Antic Macedonians, Thracians, Illurians were all proto-slavic people with dominant I2a and R1a haplogroup , this same haplogroups even today go in pair in all of Eastern Europe..
    The timeline is also very much prolonged and what is 2000 years is 1000y in actuality.
    Macedonians which also knows as Slavo-Macedonians in Northern Greece and now in Macedonia (the Republic N. Macedonia) are the same people but because in the 1800' the concept of nationality was not popular within the people which before that only know themsefs as "nashi" (ours) they were subject to Bulgarization, Serbization which are closely related to and later forceful assimilation to Greek (simple murdering / or exodus) .. the previous macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and current president of Macedonia George Ivanov are both from Aegian Macedonian heritage that were expelled from Greek authority in early to mid 20th century, The picture of the people changed drastically after the Greeko Turshish war where huge number of Anatolian Greeks and other chirstina people were moved mostly to Aegian Macedonia , they are called Madzirs or Prosfiges (newcomers) this people now are calling macedonians bad names like monkey-donians etc..
    The greek side claims that macedonians in ancient time were greeks / hellens but this is blatant lie, the only greek in them was the rulling class manners , and that was all , since greek / hellen was like english in those times
    End.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonDavidoff View Post
    The Macedonians in Aegian Macedonia lived there long before Hellens settle the coastline areas, Modern Greeks genocided the endopi (original settlers) of what become north Greece last century.. Here is the simple truth: Antic Macedonians, Thracians, Illurians were all proto-slavic people with dominant I2a and R1a haplogroup , this same haplogroups even today go in pair in all of Eastern Europe..
    The timeline is also very much prolonged and what is 2000 years is 1000y in actuality.
    Macedonians which also knows as Slavo-Macedonians in Northern Greece and now in Macedonia (the Republic N. Macedonia) are the same people but because in the 1800' the concept of nationality was not popular within the people which before that only know themsefs as "nashi" (ours) they were subject to Bulgarization, Serbization which are closely related to and later forceful assimilation to Greek (simple murdering / or exodus) .. the previous macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and current president of Macedonia George Ivanov are both from Aegian Macedonian heritage that were expelled from Greek authority in early to mid 20th century, The picture of the people changed drastically after the Greeko Turshish war where huge number of Anatolian Greeks and other chirstina people were moved mostly to Aegian Macedonia , they are called Madzirs or Prosfiges (newcomers) this people now are calling macedonians bad names like monkey-donians etc..
    The greek side claims that macedonians in ancient time were greeks / hellens but this is blatant lie, the only greek in them was the rulling class manners , and that was all , since greek / hellen was like english in those times
    End.
    Nice Conclusion , here is new lecture by Prof.Kenneth W.Harl about The World of early Macedon , you can check it
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s

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    Quote Originally Posted by RagnarofMacedon View Post
    Nice Conclusion , here is new lecture by Prof.Kenneth W.Harl about The World of early Macedon , you can check it
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s
    "Macedonians/thracians/illyrians were all proto-slavs" is a good conclusion?

    And I agree, Harl js a serious historian, but in the very lecture you shared he explicitly states that slavs have nothing to do with macedonians unless some assimilated locals.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    "Macedonians/thracians/illyrians were all proto-slavs" is a good conclusion?

    And I agree, Harl js a serious historian, but in the very lecture you shared he explicitly states that slavs have nothing to do with macedonians unless some assimilated locals.
    Lecture is connected about MACEDONIANS Are GREEKS nonsense i reading everywhere , its clear that nowdays noone is clear NATION, there were too many people on balkan coming , but we talking about fundamentals of one nation , fundamentals of North Macedonians are ancient Macedonians... We are all mixed more or less ,but about every thread and connection about Balkan countries and ethnicities most simialrs are Macedonians,Bulgarians,Albanians and Greeks thats one group, second is Serbians,Montenegrians,Bosnians,Croatians....
    We share so much history , i dont believe sincerely that there come some "slavic" tribes,rulled and exterminated over most war-like people in Europe , Macedonians,thracians,Illyrians and Greeks...Only period on Balkans when there was Quiet and without wars was period between 1-4 century AD , but not they coming later ....Anyways more or less Greeks,Macedonians,Bulgarians even Albanians have so called "slavic" admixtures more or less but fundamentals of nations are different or simply said paleo-balkanic....
    I dont considered Albanians different people than Macedonians , i have examples in my town they are all more or less most likely like Maceodnians (phisically characterists)...
    Cheers...
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