My map of haplogroup R1a in Greece & surroundings

[RagnarofMacedon]

"Macedonians/thracians/illyrians were all proto-slavs" is a good conclusion?

And I agree, Harl js a serious historian, but in the very lecture you shared he explicitly states that slavs have nothing to do with macedonians unless some assimilated locals.

Lecture is connected about MACEDONIANS Are GREEKS nonsense i reading everywhere , its clear that nowdays noone is clear NATION, there were too many people on balkan coming , but we talking about fundamentals of one nation , fundamentals of North Macedonians are ancient Macedonians... We are all mixed more or less ,but about every thread and connection about Balkan countries and ethnicities most simialrs are Macedonians,Bulgarians,Albanians and Greeks thats one group, second is Serbians,Montenegrians,Bosnians,Croatians....
We share so much history , i dont believe sincerely that there come some "slavic" tribes,rulled and exterminated over most war-like people in Europe , Macedonians,thracians,Illyrians and Greeks...Only period on Balkans when there was Quiet and without wars was period between 1-4 century AD , but not they coming later ....Anyways more or less Greeks,Macedonians,Bulgarians even Albanians have so called "slavic" admixtures more or less but fundamentals of nations are different or simply said paleo-balkanic....
I dont considered Albanians different people than Macedonians , i have examples in my town they are all more or less most likely like Maceodnians (phisically characterists)...
Cheers...
"sincerely

 

[mathewsalinas]

it’s hard to say whether this is true, people are moving, nations are getting in the way, maybe once, they could be called a pure nation

 

[mathewsalinas]

such information makes me think, however

 

[dosas]

Lots of unsubstantiated and baseless accusations against the Greek people in this thread, bordering on hate speech on racist grounds, on top of the same ad nauseum rhetoric about the 'proto-Slavic'-ness of the ancient Macedonian people.

 

[Illyri]

Here is my map of frequency of haplogroup R1a

R1a_in_Greece.jpg[/IMG]

Very interesting thread.
Would you mind posting your maps again.
For some reason, it is not possible to see them anymore

 

[Illyri]

Based on the data of 1100 Greeks from the Genographic Project...I updated the map

Would you mind posting your updated map again (or sending it by pm) ?

 

[Illyri]

Many ancient authors wrote that the hinterland of Thessaloniki was most heavily settled by Slavs and that this was their main attempted target to capture. It makes sense to suggest that in ancient Greece there was more R1a-Z282 than Z93 as much as R1b-Z2103 was more than R1b-P312. It is unsuprising that only in Sicily Z93 is the most common branch. However, the branch in the rest of Italy and southern Greece is consistent. But in Greek Macedonia the ratio of M458:Z280 is 5:1, (Underhill 2009) the strangest ever found. Although in Italy there is M458-L260 from the Goths, there is no M458-L1029, which is the main branch in northern Greece, consistent with Bulgaria and Macedonia rather than southern Greece. L1029 is a very young subclade of M458, which originated in the distinction of Lechitic and Czech tribes, so it came with the Slavs. Z280 in south Greece must be either from the other Slav tribes (Scalvenes, not Antes), or probably from assimilated Thracians, because it does not make sense that it was brought from Anatolia by the Greco-Anatolians either. It is hard to find out why if Z93 is the most common branch in Sicily, then Z282 would be the one in ancient Greeks. A likely source is Byzantine Slavs for the elevated frequency in some regions of Sicily, or probably Normans.

Belonging to a subclade of R-Z280 and originating from South Albania, I am very interested by the origins of this subclade in the South Albania and Northern Greece. You write that it makes sense that in ancient Greece Z282 was more frequent than Z93 and that Z280 in south Greece could also be related to assimilated Thracians. Are these assumptions or there are scientific papers and/or ancient DNA to support them ? I might be wrong since I am a beginner with paleo-genetics, but I do not remember any Z280 ancient DNA found more South than Central Europe and the only R1a Ancient Thracian was R-Z93.

 

[Dibran]

fffff

I don't see how L260 would be Gothic, or moreso any ways. Most of its descending branches are just as young as L1029, and its rarely anywhere in the Balkans outside of minority samples.

Also, there was a Alpine project with R1a-L1029 results found in a Italian from Lombardy, surname Serponte. Of course any scenarios exist for it's arrival but his Italian ancestor was born in 1400. Could have been from Austria, or German mercenaries in the later medieval era. I also have a L1029 match who has origin from France on the border with Spain(though they list Sweden on yfull). One from Spain as well on ftdna y12.

Just less than 2 years ago, I was the only Albanian in our project with L1029. Now we have discovered a decent amount in our project, including the Albanian haplotype of L1029 which has been found in several Albanian from studies, including 6 families now in the project, with our founder living 1200ypb(which I belong).

I imagine there are Haplotypes elsewhere yet to be discovered. Goths also assimilated Balts, Proto Slavs in their movements through East Europe. They surely absorbed some R1a from Balts and Slavs in their migrations as well. So, theoretically, we should see more basal R1a clusters popping up that could have moved before the Slavic migration minimally. Theres also Antes, which as early as 300-400AD were serving as guards of the Danube limes. They could have also carried some more.

YP417 for instance is more common in East Slavs, and East Balkans. YP515 is also more east Slavic and minimally represented. Then there is YP263 which is also found. Basal L1029 is less common outside of Central European Slavs, and East Germans. I turned out negative downstream L1029 and my Albanian haplotype splits L1029, either directly forming a new branch besides the others or splitting the ancestral clade upstream of YP263 (too unstable).

I do like this map very much though. Should make separate clade maps, and sub-clusters to see what that looks like by themselves.

 

[RagnarofMacedon]

I believe we would find more, at Central and North and N west Greece,

the hole case of R1a in Greece and some other areas like S Italy and S minor Asia is just the story of Dorian descent and Makedonian/ Argeiad start

search more the colonies of Dorians at S Italy like Locri and South of Smyrne,

Then you will see exactly that fits with from what Τριχακες ment,

I am expecting more than 25% in core of Central and North of continental Greece,

The strange is that you have too much in Thrace, I am expecting less there, about 12 %

Interesting would be to post the more deep kind of R1a


PS

lately i have found a book that contanis all the Slavic toponyms in Greece and are much,
as excpected I2 is stronger there, and more strange is that some are never mentioned in history as occupied or even raided by Slavs,
The straneg of R1a is that since Dorian, and follows all the Dorian way to Sparta, even at your map modern Sparta has less than expected.

PS2
As for Crete we know than Dorians occupied the West part of the island till White mountains,
it is clearly at your map the area, but seems later times that HG was pushed and limited to very south and mountains,
areas were not even Romans entered,


PS3

in fact the shape of R1a Hg expand in Greece,
SHOWS CLEARLY THAT R1a IS NOT A CLEAR MARK OF SLAVS, SINCE EXISTED MORE THAN 3500 IN BALKANS

Borza;

[9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence."[10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically."[11] "There is no archeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk traditions about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece.[12] "The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians may be more ingenious than convincing, resting uncomfortably on myth and conjecture."


Crete or KRIT - KRITI , its Pelasgo-Macedonian word in modern Macedonian language same word KRIT means HIDE or something to hide , so Zeus was hiding on CRETE from his father...
seCRETE

 

[LABERIA]

Crete or KRIT - KRITI , its Pelasgo-Macedonian word in modern Macedonian language same word KRIT means HIDE or something to hide , so Zeus was hiding on CRETE from his father...
seCRETE

I like this, lol.

BTW, watch the video, is with subs in English:

The State TV in FYROM - GOD IS A MACEDONIAN !!! Gospodari na efira show

 

[Illyri]

I found this surprising map on this site :

Is there is any scientific/archeologic evidence of the Ancient Greeks and Macedonians (2000/1500 BC) being R1a tribes originating from Trzciniec Culture ?

 

[Dibran]

I found this surprising map on this site :

Is there is any scientific/archeologic evidence of the Ancient Greeks and Macedonians (2000/1500 BC) being R1a tribes originating from Trzciniec Culture ?

Doubtful. The map is pretty old. If they were Trziniec they should be Z280/M458/I2a1b-Din. The only Balkan folk I think could have carried a variety of the aforementioned lineages would be the Late Iron Age Northern Dacians, who already theoretically bordered Balto-Slavs so a spillover could have occurred.

So far the only R1a in ancient Balkans was a Proto-Thracian who was Z93. Time will tell if ancient Balkan remains carry other varieties of R1a. However, even if they do, they would probably be more basal. For instance some of the Sardinian R1a was PF6155(pre-M458), PF7521(subclade of M458 which is ancestral to L1029 among others. Whilst they could just as easily spread with East Germanics, some could have moved earlier.

As for later subclades that are younger, I would say they would be less likely to carry. Time will tell though. It is very hard because many Northern derived lineages performed creamtion burials which make it problematic to find physical samples that happened to be buried.

 

[Illyri]

Doubtful. The map is pretty old.

I agree. The map surprised me and it is why I asked whether there was some scientific/archeological ground to support it. The map could be old indeed. But If you look at "Haplogroup R1a" history (last update in 2018), there is also a chapter named "The greek branch" mentioning that the Mycenian culture is clearly a steppe imported one and that some archeological items show striking similarities with the Seima Turbino culture from the Russian Northern forest-steppes.

So far the only R1a in ancient Balkans was a Proto-Thracian who was Z93. Time will tell if ancient Balkan remains carry other varieties of R1a. However, even if they do, they would probably be more basal. For instance some of the Sardinian R1a was PF6155(pre-M458), PF7521(subclade of M458 which is ancestral to L1029 among others. Whilst they could just as easily spread with East Germanics, some could have moved earlier.

On the chronological level, I think it could work for R-M458* and R-Z280* and for their basal subclades (older than 4000 ybp). The pre-M458 R-PF6155 sample on yfull.com is not Sardinian (but from Como in Northern Italy). That being said, Sardinian R1a is a good example as it is quite diverse and certain subclades are ancient while others are younger:

- R-Z93* (TMRCA 4700 ybp)
- R-Z2123 > Y24669 (formed 3'900 ybp)
- R-M458 > PF7536 and R-Z29307 (TMRCA 4700 ybp)
- R-L1029 basal (formed 3'100 ybp)
- R-Z92 > Y13891* (TMRCA 2'900 ybp)
- R-CTS1211 > YP372* (TMRCA 1'800 ybp)
- R-2902 > Y1396 and Y1399 (formed 2400 ybp)

This diversity could be an indication of various migratory events bringing R1a on the island.

As for later subclades that are younger, I would say they would be less likely to carry. Time will tell though. It is very hard because many Northern derived lineages performed creamtion burials which make it problematic to find physical samples that happened to be buried.

Cremation - which is (by the way) performed in the Iliad for Patrocles and Achilles - could be a serious problem for ancient DNA finds.

 

[RagnarofMacedon]

I like this, lol.

BTW, watch the video, is with subs in English:

The State TV in FYROM - GOD IS A MACEDONIAN !!! Gospodari na efira show

Please dont cheers Bulgars , turkic-nomads...I dont want to speaks about poolitics here , they r biggest thieves and clowns...