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Thread: Ancient DNA from Xueshan and Lower Xiajiadian cultures (Neolithic Northern China)

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Ancient DNA from Xueshan and Lower Xiajiadian cultures (Neolithic Northern China)

    Genetic diversity of two Neolithic populations provides evidence of farming expansions in North China
    Ye Zhang 2016



    Xueshan culture (Jiangjialiang site) 5600–4900 BP (s=17)
    58.8% N*-M231 (xN1c2a-M128, N1c1-Tat)
    41.2% N1c1-Tat

    mtDNA
    R = 17.1%
    >R* = 4.9%
    >B = 9.8%
    >F = 2.4%

    N = 14.6%

    >A = 14.6%

    Lower Xiajiadian culture (Sanguan site) 4500–3500 BP (s=4)
    100% O2-M122



    "T
    he earliest evidence of crop domestication dates to 8500 BP at the Xinglongwa site"
    Last edited by Alpenjager; 04-09-16 at 09:17.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Neolithic N1c population. That is interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Neolithic N1c population. That is interesting.
    Liao and especially Hongshan were also largely Y-DNA N.

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    Haplogroup N1* and N1c were both found at high frequency (26 out of 70 samples, or 37%) in Neolithic and Bronze Age remains (4500-700 BCE) from the West Liao River valley in Northeast China by Yinqiu Cui et al. (2013). It is the first time that N1c1-Tat is confirmed in Neolithic China. It shows that once again very successful lineages have their roots either in Neolithic or Bronze Age cultures, even when it comes to the colonisation of infertile Siberia.

    The odd thing is that the estimated of N1c1 on Y-Full is as much as 15,000 years old, which predates those Chinese Neolithic samples by 10,000 years. How could so many northern Chinese Neolithic sites carry high frequencies of N*, N1, N1c and N1c1 is the youngest among them is 15,000 years old?
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    N1 was in northern China with 1st farmers and probably before.

    N1c appears not before 3 ka, Upper Xiajiadian.
    They were herders from the steppe with cattle, horses and bronze, which they had through contacts with Andronovo near the Altaï mountains.
    300 years later Donghu people arrived from the steppe in the Liao river area.
    They started pillaging and raiding on horseback in the northern Chinese states.
    That is when the 1st parts of the Great Wall were buit.

    By 4.5 ka N1c tribes had already crossed the entire Siberia and were already in northern Europe

    Zhizhitskaya Russia Serteya (Smolenskaya oblast) II [A6] M 2500 BC N1c
    ? Chekunova 2014


    So the N1c in Upper Xiajiadian must have been already a deep subclade.

    IMO N1c arrived on the Siberian steppes east of Lake Bajkal with 1st pottery, 12-13 ka. They (all N + subclades) came from the Yellow Sea. Sea levels had started to rise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dodona View Post
    Liao and especially Hongshan were also largely Y-DNA N.
    it is during Longshan that much N was replaced by O in northern China

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Wiki on Comb Ceramic:
    Comb Ceramic or Pit-Comb Ware (in Europe), Jeulmun pottery or Jeulmun vessel (in Korea) is a type of pottery subjected to geometric patterns in the comb-like tool. This type of pottery developed in northern woodland of the Eurasia, and widely distributed to Baltic, Finland, the Volga upstream flow, south Siberia, Lake Baikal, Mongolian Plateau, Liaodong Peninsula and Korean Peninsula. The oldest ones have been discovered from the remains of Liao civilization - xinglongwa culture (BC 6200 - 5400 BC) -.[1] It appears in 4200 BC in Finland and 4000 BC in the Korean Peninsula, so the Urheimat is assumed to be Liao region and spread afterward to North Europe through Siberia and to Korean peniusla. This is possibly related to Uralic migration and spread of haprogroup N (Y-DNA).[2]

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Wiki on Comb Ceramic:
    Comb Ceramic or Pit-Comb Ware (in Europe), Jeulmun pottery or Jeulmun vessel (in Korea) is a type of pottery subjected to geometric patterns in the comb-like tool. This type of pottery developed in northern woodland of the Eurasia, and widely distributed to Baltic, Finland, the Volga upstream flow, south Siberia, Lake Baikal, Mongolian Plateau, Liaodong Peninsula and Korean Peninsula. The oldest ones have been discovered from the remains of Liao civilization - xinglongwa culture (BC 6200 - 5400 BC) -.[1] It appears in 4200 BC in Finland and 4000 BC in the Korean Peninsula, so the Urheimat is assumed to be Liao region and spread afterward to North Europe through Siberia and to Korean peniusla. This is possibly related to Uralic migration and spread of haprogroup N (Y-DNA).[2]
    there is anciant DNA from the Liao rivier area
    it is N, but not N1c, till 3 ka that is

    http://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com...71-2148-13-216

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it is during Longshan that much N was replaced by O in northern China
    I think the chinese speaking O3 people started to appear from Longshan.

    The Han Chinese are the largest ethnic group in the world and have a current population of a staggering 1.3 billion individuals [1]. According to historical documents, the generally accepted view is that the Han Chinese can trace their origins to the Huaxia ethnic group, which formed during the Shang and Zhou dynasties (21st–8th centuries BC) in the Central Plain region of China (Fig 1) [2]. During the Han Dynasty (260 BC-220 AD), the Huaxia ethnic group developed into a tribe known as the Han Chinese [3]. Because of their advanced agriculture and technology, this group migrated northward into regions inhabited by many ancient northern ethnic groups that were most likely Altaic in origin
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0125676

    So The N in the Hongshan of Liao civilization seems to be altaic people or Uralic. That is why altaic and uralic is similar.

    Problem is the Longshan culture of O3 was replaced by shang dynasty. Did shang people speak in chinese?
    shang

    shintasha


    look like Greece and Egypt, b/c Liao civilization was based upon pyramids.
    Last edited by johen; 04-09-16 at 23:02.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think the chinese speaking O3 people started to appear from Longshan.


    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0125676

    So The N in the Hongshan of Liao civilization seems to be altaic people or Uralic. That is why altaic and uralic is similar.

    Problem is the Longshan culture of O3 was replaced by shang dynasty. Did shang people speak in chinese?
    shang

    shintasha


    look like Greece and Egypt, b/c Liao civilization was based upon pyramids.
    xia and shang knew bronze casting and had charriots
    this was not in Longshan
    bronze also arrived in Sichuan Shu
    IMO this marks the arrival of Q1a1-M120 through Gansu corridor


    • Hengbei site (Peng kingdom cemetery of Western Zhou period), Jiang County, Shanxi, 2800-3000YBP: 9 Q1a1-M120, 2 O2a-M95, 1 N, 4 O3a2-P201, 2 O3, 4 O*[133]
      • In another paper, the social status of those human remains of ancient Peng kingdom(倗国) are analyzed. aristocrats: 3 Q1a1 (prostrate 2, supine 1), 2 O3a (supine 2), 1 N (prostrate) / commoners : 8 Q1a1 (prostrate 4, supine 4), 3 O3a (prostrate 1, supine 2), 3 O* (supine 3) / slaves: 3 O3a, 2 O2a, 1 O*[134]
      • (cf) Pengbo (倗伯), Monarch of Peng Kingdom is estimated as Q-M120.

    • Pengyang County, Ningxia, 2500YBP: all 4 Q1a1-M120[133] (with a lot of animal bones and bronze swords and other weapons, etc.)
    • Heigouliang, Xinjiang, 2200YBP: 6 Q1a* (not Q1a1-M120, not Q1a1b-M25, not Q1a2-M3), 4 Q1b-M378, 2 Q* (not Q1a, not Q1b: unable to determine subclades):[135]
      • In a paper(Lihongjie 2012), the author analyzed the Y-DNAs of the ancient male samples from the 2nd or 1st century BCE cemetery at Heigouliang in Xinjiang – which is also believed to be the site of a summer palace for Xiongnu kings – which is east of the Barkol basin and near the city of Hami. The Y-DNA of 12 men excavated from the site belonged to Q-MEH2 (Q1a) or Q-M378 (Q1b). The Q-M378 men among them were regarded as hosts of the tombs; half of the Q-MEH2 men appeared to be hosts and the other half as sacrificial victims.


    however Q1a1-M120 never became majority
    probably Xia and Shang elite were a mixture of the old Longshan elite with some Q1a1-M120 smiths

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    IMO this marks the arrival of Q1a1-M120 through Gansu corridor


    • Hengbei site, Monarch of Peng Kingdom is estimated as Q-M120.
    • Pengyang County, Ningxia, 2500YBP: all 4 Q1a1-M120[133] (with a lot of animal bones and bronze swords and other weapons, etc.)
    • Heigouliang, Xinjiang, 2200YBP: 6 Q1a* (not Q1a1-M120, not Q1a1b-M25, not Q1a2-M3), 4 Q1b-M378, 2 Q* (not Q1a, not Q1b:


    however Q1a1-M120 never became majority
    probably Xia and Shang elite were a mixture of the old Longshan elite with some Q1a1-M120 smiths
    looks like Q1a1-M120 were Xiongnu. So I think they could not go with farmer O3.
    Under the philosophy of nomad shamanism, the farmers or builders on earth, so called "the civilized", were just enemy to be exterminated, b/c the earth is their mom. No exception.
    They were always thinking that they were produced by the sun of father and earth of mother. The scythian were an best example.

    Six human remains (dating ~2500 years ago) were excavated from Pengyang, China, an area occupied by both ancient nomadic and farming people. The funerary objects found with these remains suggested they were nomads. To further confirm their ancestry, we analyzed both the maternal lineages and paternal lineages of the ancient DNA. From the mitochondrial DNA, six haplotypes were identified as three haplogroups: C, D4 and M10. The haplotype-sharing populations and phylogenetic analyses revealed that these individuals were closely associated with the ancient Xiongnu and modern northern Asians.

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    Twenty five years ago in Toronto I lived with a Finnish landlord. They were very nice and friends with the tenants. There were three of us a Swede, a German Hungarian and me. We used to go to a cafe and shoot the breeze. They used to tell me all about Europe. It was fun.

    Anyway the Finnish landlord used to invite me to their home for Christmas dinner and was surprised that they didn't have much vegetables in their traditional Finnish meal. They mentioned that the Finnish people originally came from China. Of course I didn't believe them but since I didn't know anything I said nothing. I thought they were Siberians but added that China bit just to be friendly. They didn't look Chinese at all or oriental in anyway.

    But this archaeological dig now reveals that they were telling the truth even though I didn't believe them. This is quite fascinating.
    Last edited by oriental; 09-09-16 at 04:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think the chinese speaking O3 people started to appear from Longshan.


    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0125676

    So The N in the Hongshan of Liao civilization seems to be altaic people or Uralic. That is why altaic and uralic is similar.

    Problem is the Longshan culture of O3 was replaced by shang dynasty. Did shang people speak in chinese?
    shang

    shintasha


    look like Greece and Egypt, b/c Liao civilization was based upon pyramids.
    Are you saying the second picture shows a Sintashta burial? Because it definitely doesn't -- it's a Shang dynasty burial as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Are you saying the second picture shows a Sintashta burial? Because it definitely doesn't -- it's a Shang dynasty burial as well.
    Because of human legs? my source is here, http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm

    How about David Anthony's work:

    http://erenow.com/ancient/the-horse-...nguage/15.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Because of human legs? my source is here, http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm

    How about David Anthony's work:

    http://erenow.com/ancient/the-horse-...nguage/15.html
    These are two different burials. The placement of the horses and the state of preservation seen in the photo strongly imply Shang dynasty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think the chinese speaking O3 people started to appear from Longshan.


    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0125676

    So The N in the Hongshan of Liao civilization seems to be altaic people or Uralic. That is why altaic and uralic is similar.

    Problem is the Longshan culture of O3 was replaced by shang dynasty. Did shang people speak in chinese?
    shang

    shintasha


    look like Greece and Egypt, b/c Liao civilization was based upon pyramids.
    Now, I think their elite group was ANE Q, speaking Altaic.

    Chinese civilization and American civilizations are actually the descendants of the same ancestors, from different locations and times. KC Chang called this entire cultural background "the Mayan-Chinese Culture Continuum.” The geographical scope of this continuum covers the entire Old World and the New World. Their time dates back much further than the origin of Chinese civilization, or the Mayan civilization, and at least as early as the Upper Paleolithic Period.
    Based on this point of view, the Paleolithic ancestors, their culture, in particular the level of development of the arts, ideas and ideology, far exceed how we view them from limited archaeological data. As such, we often underestimate the level of their culture.
    20,000-30,000 years ago when most of the Indigenous groups passed through the Bering Strait from Asia to the Americas, they brought along a culture with unexpected richness. This extended to the New World and became known as "the Mayan-Chinese culture continuum. Its core element comprised of "sorcery and shaman culture". When viewing the world, they divided it into different levels, and the shaman interchanged between the different levels. They engaged in this communication, some aides and tools: various law , which may include a gourd, alcohol, drugs, a variety of animals and a heaven-earth pole.
    20,000 to 30,000 years ago, people journeyed across the Bering Strait to the New World. During this process, they were said to have brought over a variety of cultural background. From this rich basis of culture, similar societies were formed at different places and different times. This included the Bronze Age civilization that occurred two to three thousand years ago in China, the Mayan civilization in Mexico, as well as other similar civilizations.
    Note: KC Chang, Qingtong Huichen
    Harvard University professor of Archeology and Anthropology, Dr. KC Chang discussed about the "Mayan-Chinese Culture Continuum”
    http://www.ancient-encounters.com/AESE/Discovery.html

    And Russian linguist, Сергей Анатольевич Старостин(Sergei Starostin)'s opinion about chinese language is correct:

    Sergei discovered that OCH have an interesting stratum of Altaic borrowings which share three common features: "1. The Old Chinese words are usually attested at least starting with Early Zhou (only a few of them are attested later than 6th century B.C.). 2. For none of these words have any Sino-Tibetan parallels been proposed. 3. On the Altaic side, the words are well represented, particularly, in the east (Korean, Japanese and Tungus-Manchu)"[9]. Discussing the impact of this discovery, Sergei mentioned to me that the Neolithic Yangshao culture of the Huang He valley can be associated with those Altaic speakers. The contacts (not peaceful) began when the speakers of OCH reached the Huang He valley and met the local Altaic population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Now, I think their elite group was ANE Q, speaking Altaic.


    Note: KC Chang, Qingtong Huichen
    Harvard University professor of Archeology and Anthropology, Dr. KC Chang discussed about the "Mayan-Chinese Culture Continuum”
    http://www.ancient-encounters.com/AESE/Discovery.html

    And Russian linguist, Сергей Анатольевич Старостин(Sergei Starostin)'s opinion about chinese language is correct:
    there was Q-M120 first in Pengyang 3 ka
    they probably brought charriots, horses and metalurgy from the steppe through Gansu
    they were part of the first Han elites (but not exclusive) 3 ka
    I suspect they also had part in the Shu civilization in Sichuan

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there was Q-M120 first in Pengyang 3 ka
    they probably brought charriots, horses and metalurgy from the steppe through Gansu
    they were part of the first Han elites (but not exclusive) 3 ka
    http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v5...jhg20108a.html
    "A study of 2010 [137] analysed six human remains of a nomadic group, excavated fromPengyang County. From the mtDNA, six haplotypes were identified as three haplogroups: C, D4 and M10. The analyses revealed that these individuals were closely associated with the ancient Xiongnu and modern northern Asians. The analysis of Y chromosomes from four male samples that were typed as haplogroup Q-M242(all Q1a1-M120)[138] indicated that these people had originated in Siberia."



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I suspect they also had part in the Shu civilization in Sichuan
    I think Sichuan people were the same people as shang people, practicing human sacrifice.

    see the artifacts with big almond eyes. First one: maya, second one: axe for human sacrifice in shang, third : sichuan


    As far as I know, Harvard scholar KC Chang also considered sichuan culture regarding his the Mayan-Chinese Culture Continuum.
    Moreover we need to consider tons of pyramids in China.

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