Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 46 of 46

Thread: Upcoming paper on Balkan Neolithic

  1. #26
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Abstracts have been miss leading before. Let's be open to many possibilities.

  2. #27
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Below are important details from the abstract.
    We generated new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 65 farmers from the Balkans and adjacent regions
    They did not get DNA from Balkan hunter gatherers. Their statements about the Balkan hunter gatherers is based on Balkan farmers, and so iffy and not fact.

    The hunter-gatherer admixture in the early farmers of the Balkans is not closely related to the hunter-gatherer admixture that is predominant in present-day Europeans. This suggests that the waves of farmers that contributed most of the migrants to northern and western Europe were not ones that mixed substantially with local Balkan hunter-gatherers.
    I've read past abstracts make similar very specific be all end all factious statements. Every single time I can remember these statements are based on a single analysis and are later proven to be simplified interpretations of the data or straight up wrong. What predominant form of hunter gatherer ancestry in modern Europeans are they referring to? Europeans have much more EHG than WHG on average and so they may not be referring to WHG btw. How did they determine what type of hunter gatherer ancestry modern European's have? Before we learn the analysis they used I'm not going to take this be all end all statement very seriously.

    Another thing I want to say is Hungary_BA has a larger EHG vs CHG ratio than Yamnaya. This could be because of Balkan with EHG admixture before Steppe people arrived with EHG and CHG. Hungary_BA also has a huge amount of WHG, more than any modern Europeans, and its WHG is clearly mostly local to Hungary(very related to Hungary WHG).

  3. #28
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I don't know how you think that your sweeping conclusions are any more valid than Tomenable's.
    The test is coming soon.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  4. #29
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Another thing I want to say is Hungary_BA has a larger EHG vs CHG ratio than Yamnaya. This could be because of Balkan with EHG admixture before Steppe people arrived with EHG and CHG. Hungary_BA also has a huge amount of WHG, more than any modern Europeans, and its WHG is clearly mostly local to Hungary(very related to Hungary WHG).
    We already have Hungarian WHG genome. It was the KO1, IIRC. I don't think there was a news about it being different from other WHGs.

  5. #30
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,472
    Points
    56,878
    Level
    73
    Points: 56,878, Level: 73
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 172
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok
    Looking at genetics of today's Northern Europeans, I think the mixing was 3 to 1. For 3 IE newcomers to 1 Neolithic Farmer.
    Yes. But it was usually 2 IE men + 1 IE woman + 1 Farmer woman.

    On the other hand, Farmer men mostly went the way of the Dodo.

  6. #31
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Yes. But it was usually 2 IE men + 1 IE woman + 1 Farmer woman.

    On the other hand, Farmer men mostly went the way of the Dodo.
    Possibly so, but the picture is more muddy than this simplification and your mathematical formula. If you came to this conclusions from looking at uniparental markers, you might come to wrong conclusions. Most dominant haplogroups in modern world come from recently quickly expanding young subclades. It is more about history of last 2 thousand years. About Slavic and Germanic expansions in Northern Europe than about Corded Ware and Cucuteni. There is a different story in Balkans and Italy with dominance of various haplogroups in different spots, though they all were dominated by IEs of mostly R1a and R1b type. Atlantic fringe is even more enigmatic with unquestionable dominance of R1b. Dominance might have started in Neolithic from local WHG with R1b haplotype, later replaced and topped up with IE Celtic R1b type.
    Y DNA is so virulent that it is hard to decipher the past older than 2,000 years. To really know that you are right in your conclusion we would need to find farmer DNA right before and right after IE invasion.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,161
    Points
    38,812
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,812, Level: 60
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 238
    Overall activity: 53.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    All I can guess is that balkan hunter gatherers were I1.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  8. #33
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,233
    Points
    41,216
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,216, Level: 62
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 434
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    All I can guess is that balkan hunter gatherers were I1.
    that came to my mind too

  9. #34
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    501
    Points
    4,446
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,446, Level: 19
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^ That is only one of possible explanations. This may also indicate that Balkan-admixed waves of Anatolian farmers who reached northern and western Europe later got extinct, replaced by Indo-Europeans coming from Russia. Modern EEF ancestry in Europe can be mostly from Ukrainian farmers (Trypillian EEF), and HG ancestry from Ukrainian hunters (pre-Trypillian HGs). It is possible that Trypillians - despite being farmers - were heavily HG-admixed (more than farmers in the rest of Europe) and had a lot of men with I2 and I1 haplogroups. This would explain why in the Bronze Age I2 and I1 - assimilated early on by IEs - proliferated much better than G2a.
    Maybe it's just that EEFs descended from Anatolian Farmers who were unadmixed with Balkan HGs.

  10. #35
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,769
    Points
    243,705
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,705, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Actually, the latest "modeling" shows 30-35% and sometimes higher "Natufian" in northwestern Europeans, 35-40% in central Europeans, and starting in the low 40s in southern Europe.

    The only people who get 25% are probably those in the Baltics.

    The mtDna of the "Indo-European" women is hardly mostly EHG. U4 and U5 are at the most around 20% of the total and most of that wouldn't come from "Indo-European" women, which leads me to LeBroc's point.

    It's been pretty clear for a while that there is more EHG (and WHG) in parts of Europe than can be explained by using an admixture of MN Central Europeans and Yamnaya. Ever since the Haak et al paper came, and thus before the modeling began to show this phenomenon, I said that the models probably over-estimated the "Indo-European" impact because there was likely a reservoir of WHG and/or EHG somewhere to the west of the steppe.

    I'm not sure that the samples analyzed in this paper indicate there were "EHG" or "EHG-like" foragers in the Balkans. We'll have to wait for the paper. If they do, then it's indeed a mystery what happened to this admixed EEF/Balkan forager group. At first I thought that perhaps they contributed to Balkan and perhaps Italian genetics, if not to the rest of Europeans, but the abstract clearly says that "The hunter-gatherer admixture in the early farmers of the Balkans is not closely related to the hunter-gatherer admixture that is predominant in present-day Europeans. "

    Now, it may be that they don't have a sample of this Balkan forager, but I would be very surprised if the Reich Lab can't be trusted to figure out what kind of forager ancestry went into this group. From the description it would seem to be "related to " EHG/SHG, but not precisely like them.

    I don't know why anyone would say there's more EHG than WHG in Europe. That's not at all what I recall seeing in either the academic or the modeler work.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  11. #36
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I don't know why anyone would say there's more EHG than WHG in Europe. That's not at all what I recall seeing in either the academic or the modeler work.
    Perhaps they analyzed WHG in EHG so precisely that they could recognize it as only coming and specific to EHG genome? Therefore they could say with certainty that majority of WHG portion in modern Europeans come directly from EHG.
    That would be my guess.
    Let's say that WHG comes from bottlenecking and refugium in Anatolia/South Balkans and started to spread from there after LGM 16 kya. Some of it stayed in Balkans and from there went to Western Europe, other part went to North East Europe and the Steppe and mixed with ANE type of Hunter Gatherer creating EHG. The split could have happened 10 ky before the EHG lived (6 kya), from which we got the samples from Russia. That's 10 thousand years of separate evolution and long enough time for independent mutations occurring helping us recognize WHG DNA being distinct in EHG, when compared to WHG in Balkans and Western Europe.

  12. #37
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know why anyone would say there's more EHG than WHG in Europe. That's not at all what I recall seeing in either the academic or the modeler work.
    It varies by region and model. Southern Europe(xBasque) in every model I've seen score significantly more EHG than WHG. Basque might be the only ones who for sure have as much WHG as EHG. Some models have most of Italy having less than 10% WHG and close to 20% EHG. EHG is usually more important than WHG because one Chalcolithic European ancestor Steppe was 50-60% EHG and the other Chalcolithic European ancestor MN was 10-30% WHG. There's extra WHG beyond what Chalcolithic genomes can explain, but it doesn't get as high as EHG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's been pretty clear for a while that there is more EHG (and WHG) in parts of Europe than can be explained by using an admixture of MN Central Europeans and Yamnaya.
    I disagree. I haven't read anything suggesting excess EHG. The EHG /ANE signal in Europe is mostly Steppe, the dye was caste a long time ago. Hungary_BA(From Gamba 2014) I think likely has a lot of this Balkan_HG stuff but not modern Europeans(except maybe Balkaners). Interestingly One Hungary_BA guy(From Allentoft 2015) might be mostly WHG(Balkan_HG?) while another one had hardly any, almost a pure Anatolian EF. WHG/EEF Y DNA dominance persisted there till 2000 BC as well.

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-10-16
    Posts
    31
    Points
    1,294
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,294, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 56
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a1b1b

    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^ That is only one of possible explanations. This may also indicate that Balkan-admixed waves of Anatolian farmers who reached northern and western Europe later got extinct, replaced by Indo-Europeans coming from Russia. Modern EEF ancestry in Europe can be mostly from Ukrainian farmers (Trypillian EEF), and HG ancestry from Ukrainian hunters (pre-Trypillian HGs). It is possible that Trypillians - despite being farmers - were heavily HG-admixed (more than farmers in the rest of Europe) and had a lot of men with I2 and I1 haplogroups. This would explain why in the Bronze Age I2 and I1 - assimilated early on by IEs - proliferated much better than G2a.
    Can we rule out that I2 was an Anatolian farmer lineage? Maybe drift had made it more common among the Tripollians. If I2 is derived primarily from European hunter gatherers, could more marginal communities that relied more on hunting and were I2 heavy and G2a light have been more likely to survive the IE onslaught. Perhaps G2a guys were too dependent on farming to survive when the IE invaders turned their farmland into pasture.

  14. #39
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    Can we rule out that I2 was an Anatolian farmer lineage? Maybe drift had made it more common among the Tripollians. If I2 is derived primarily from European hunter gatherers, could more marginal communities that relied more on hunting and were I2 heavy and G2a light have been more likely to survive the IE onslaught. Perhaps G2a guys were too dependent on farming to survive when the IE invaders turned their farmland into pasture.
    During Last Glacial Maximum many european hunter gatherers found refuge deep in southern Europe and Anatolia. Anatolia was the first place G2a farmers met I2 hunter gatherers and started mixing with them about 10kya. The farther North Anatolian Farmers went the more they mixed with I2 hunter gatherers, so called WHG. Definitely WHG were more genetically suited to live and survive in colder climate. Therefore the more farmers mixed with WHGs the higher their chance to survive in case of failed crops were.
    I think the ultimate mix of farmer/hunter came from Yamnaya in shape of Corded Ware Culture and Bell Beaker Culture, which largely replaced Late Neolithic farmers, and dominated Northern Europe, together with their descendents, since bronze age till today.
    Welcome to Eupedia Huitzilopochtli.

  15. #40
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,097
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,097, Level: 28
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 253
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Are there informations of the haplogroups?
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-04-10
    Posts
    336
    Points
    15,078
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,078, Level: 37
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 572
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Are there informations of the haplogroups?
    Looks like early Balkan farmers were G2a: source.

  17. #42
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,305
    Points
    34,401
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,401, Level: 57
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 1,049
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    I have no global answer
    but I red metric anthropology saw some input of 'cromagnoids' of Dniestr-Donets region ("false neolithic") among Tripolye pop in the first times of this culture, the more among females (not so surprising!) - later this component decreased among people of Tripolye, so the (E)HGs input has not been so strong then, spite the presence of diverse HGs pops in the surroundings I think (+ Carpathians mountains by instance) - as kind of confirmation, the visible input (partly craniometric, more convincingly autosomal) of EEFlike people into some of the Steppic cultures of the LBA like Sintashta or Andronovo sites where an EEFlike component overcome the CHG/Caucasuslike one

  18. #43
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    28-11-13
    Location
    earth
    Posts
    10
    Points
    3,285
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,285, Level: 16
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 165
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    N1a P189.2

    Ethnic group
    None
    Country: Serbia



    Hope that some E-V13 will appear

  19. #44
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,305
    Points
    34,401
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,401, Level: 57
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 1,049
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    for the HG 's part I would bet for Y-I ancestors of I2a1a and I2a1b + maybe some I1 + surely some E-V13 but who knows for sure?

  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-09-16
    Posts
    42
    Points
    2,286
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,286, Level: 13
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 164
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Belgium



    If I read the abstract correctly it seems the samples analyzed date from the onset of the Neolithicum. If so I would be very surprised if any V13 was present. It's parent M78 would be a safer bet.

  21. #46
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,305
    Points
    34,401
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,401, Level: 57
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 1,049
    Overall activity: 33.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    If I read the abstract correctly it seems the samples analyzed date from the onset of the Neolithicum. If so I would be very surprised if any V13 was present. It's parent M78 would be a safer bet.
    True. I anticipated to downstream SNPs? but V13 was present about 5000 BC in Iberia,and is well present today in North Africa (Lybia). Perhaps older than believed?

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •