Upcoming paper on Balkan Neolithic

[Angela]

And if, R1b was just the original european farmer... Later replaced by G, coming from North Iran or Far East Anatolia, with the modern distribution of G1 and G2 i never believe that G haplogroup was in a goulot d'étranglement in anatolia... R1b Epipaleolithc / Mesolithic balkans and west asia minor, can have take farming for G East Anatolia.

No R1b Neolithic farmers have been discovered in the Near East to date, although I would expect that at some point an R1b V88 farmer or herder should show up. There's a typically Neolithic farmer R1b sample in Iberia as well.

However, people on this Board are primarily discussing the downstream clades of R1b, and preferably of the P312 variety when they're talking about tracking it to steppe groups.

That does seem the best bet at present, although it may have happened before the movement of the Yamnaya "eastern" clades.

However, all this certainty is misplaced in my opinion. This is all highly speculative.

 

[halfalp]

No but, if the EHG component of R1b is in fact primary farmers or herders from balkans who is going in the steppe with Bug-Dniester herding culture and Khvalynsk / Samara herders pushing by the second wave of the Danubian Neolithic, like we dont really know exactly how the neolithic scheme work, maybe that the first farmers / herders were quite nomadics. In mouvement of population, and haplogroups, we always seen an origin and a replacement, like r1a and r1b must have being somehwat neighbourg, like O and N where, or R and Q, I in europe and J in eastern europe / caucasus L and T... How can G following H, wich is found in india, being in anatolia and R1b in actual armenia, like, its just dont have any sens. Its more plausible that G is originaly iranian marker, and follow migrations from other tribes, make is road in mesopotamia / anatolia.

 

[halfalp]

Like just think about that, We've got the Villabruna cluster, epipaleolithic wich is correlate with the epigravettian, epigravettian is an central, eastern perhaps circum-black sea cultural component. This guy is R1b, so you all think R1b was in Iran / Armenia in neolithic, and so what, was in afghanistan in paleolithic ? LUL, And so this R1b found in North Italia, manage to make is way among different population and component from Afghanistan / Iran in paleolithic, arrived in central europe and become an 100% WHG... That paper and the previous about the Villabruna cluster, just tell us that coming from the steppe, R1b is become a south circum black sea component comprise in Blakans, Asia minor, perhaps heaven transcaucasus. So, now, weve got the Danubian Neolithic, that we know was exclusively G2a. The only explanation is that, G2a farmer coming from middle east / north iran replaced, R1b Asia minor and Balkans culture, wich go on the steppe and replaced R1a further north. Maybe r1b people already had little farming experience when they coming to the steppe. + Those south european but already continental climat, people, who early take from their middle eastern neighbourg farming, can be the perfect reason from an early skin and hair mutation who's gonna give lightning mutation after.

 

[LeBrok]

^ That is only one of possible explanations. This may also indicate that Balkan-admixed waves of Anatolian farmers who reached northern and western Europe later got extinct, replaced by Indo-Europeans coming from Russia. Modern EEF ancestry in Europe can be mostly from Ukrainian farmers (Trypillian EEF), and HG ancestry from Ukrainian hunters (pre-Trypillian HGs). It is possible that Trypillians - despite being farmers - were heavily HG-admixed (more than farmers in the rest of Europe) and had a lot of men with I2 and I1 haplogroups. This would explain why in the Bronze Age I2 and I1 - assimilated early on by IEs - proliferated much better than G2a.

You go where your heart wants to lead you, and not your brain.

I mentioned few times that the perfect North European farmer came from mixture of Neolithic Farmer with hunter gatherers (EHG) somewhere in West Yamnaya. They could farm and produce a lot of food and they could hunt to supplement their diet when climate cooled down. That only goes for Northern Europe as South remained in better climatic condition and was always heavily populated by Farmers. South was never depopulated not allowing IE newcomers to conquer it quickly, but the North was. CW success was based on this, the excellent genetic mix for farming/hunting in North and depopulation of Neolithic Farmers during cold spells. Looking at genetics of today's Northern Europeans, I think the mixing was 3 to 1. For 3 IE newcomers to 1 Neolithic Farmer. The scale of mixing must have been similar to NW Europe too.

I don't think Cucuteni were heavily mixed with hunter gatherers. If they were they would have survived the failed corps spell and we would have seen their cultural achievements to continue. It might be a case that very Northern Cucuteni mixed enough with EHG to survive and create a new culture of IE type. However, most likely CW was from somewhere in NW Yamnaya. Very heavy in EHG and R1a and low on farmer gene.

If Cucuteni indeed would have turned to be heavily mixed with hunter gatherers, I would think it was the R1b type, and coming late from South West Yamnaya. Or somehow Cucuteni farmers got "infected" with neighboring R1b subclades, which spread to high proportions through couple of thousand of years, in spite of low hunter gatherer admixture. There was enough time for this to happen.

 

[holderlin]

You go where your heart wants to lead you, and not your brain.
I mentioned few times that the perfect North European farmer came from mixture of Neolithic Farmer with hunter gatherers (EHG) somewhere in West Yamnaya. They could farm and produce a lot of food and they could hunt to supplement their diet when climate cooled down. That only goes for Northern Europe as South remained in better climatic condition and was always heavily populated by Farmers. South was never depopulated not allowing IE newcomers to conquer it quickly, but the North was. CW success was based on this, the excellent genetic mix for farming/hunting in North and depopulation of Neolithic Farmers during cold spells. Looking at genetics of today's Northern Europeans, I think the mixing was 3 to 1. For 3 IE newcomers to 1 Neolithic Farmer. The scale of mixing must have been similar to NW Europe too.

I don't think Cucuteni were heavily mixed with hunter gatherers. If they were they would have survived the failed corps spell and we would have seen their cultural achievements to continue. It might be a case that very Northern Cucuteni mixed enough with EHG to survive and create a new culture of IE type. However, most likely CW was from somewhere in NW Yamnaya. Very heavy in EHG and R1a and low on farmer gene.

If Cucuteni indeed would have turned to be heavily mixed with hunter gatherers, I would think it was the R1b type, and coming late from South West Yamnaya. Or somehow Cucuteni farmers got "infected" with neighboring R1b subclades, which spread to high proportions through couple of thousand of years, in spite of low hunter gatherer admixture. There was enough time for this to happen.

I don't know how you think that your sweeping conclusions are any more valid than Tomenable's.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Abstracts have been miss leading before. Let's be open to many possibilities.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Below are important details from the abstract.

We generated new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 65 farmers from the Balkans and adjacent regions

They did not get DNA from Balkan hunter gatherers. Their statements about the Balkan hunter gatherers is based on Balkan farmers, and so iffy and not fact.

The hunter-gatherer admixture in the early farmers of the Balkans is not closely related to the hunter-gatherer admixture that is predominant in present-day Europeans. This suggests that the waves of farmers that contributed most of the migrants to northern and western Europe were not ones that mixed substantially with local Balkan hunter-gatherers.

I've read past abstracts make similar very specific be all end all factious statements. Every single time I can remember these statements are based on a single analysis and are later proven to be simplified interpretations of the data or straight up wrong. What predominant form of hunter gatherer ancestry in modern Europeans are they referring to? Europeans have much more EHG than WHG on average and so they may not be referring to WHG btw. How did they determine what type of hunter gatherer ancestry modern European's have? Before we learn the analysis they used I'm not going to take this be all end all statement very seriously.

Another thing I want to say is Hungary_BA has a larger EHG vs CHG ratio than Yamnaya. This could be because of Balkan with EHG admixture before Steppe people arrived with EHG and CHG. Hungary_BA also has a huge amount of WHG, more than any modern Europeans, and its WHG is clearly mostly local to Hungary(very related to Hungary WHG).

 

[LeBrok]

I don't know how you think that your sweeping conclusions are any more valid than Tomenable's.

The test is coming soon.

 

[LeBrok]

Another thing I want to say is Hungary_BA has a larger EHG vs CHG ratio than Yamnaya. This could be because of Balkan with EHG admixture before Steppe people arrived with EHG and CHG. Hungary_BA also has a huge amount of WHG, more than any modern Europeans, and its WHG is clearly mostly local to Hungary(very related to Hungary WHG).

We already have Hungarian WHG genome. It was the KO1, IIRC. I don't think there was a news about it being different from other WHGs.

 

[Tomenable]

Looking at genetics of today's Northern Europeans, I think the mixing was 3 to 1. For 3 IE newcomers to 1 Neolithic Farmer.

Yes. But it was usually 2 IE men + 1 IE woman + 1 Farmer woman.

On the other hand, Farmer men mostly went the way of the Dodo.

 

[LeBrok]

Yes. But it was usually 2 IE men + 1 IE woman + 1 Farmer woman.

On the other hand, Farmer men mostly went the way of the Dodo.

Possibly so, but the picture is more muddy than this simplification and your mathematical formula. If you came to this conclusions from looking at uniparental markers, you might come to wrong conclusions. Most dominant haplogroups in modern world come from recently quickly expanding young subclades. It is more about history of last 2 thousand years. About Slavic and Germanic expansions in Northern Europe than about Corded Ware and Cucuteni. There is a different story in Balkans and Italy with dominance of various haplogroups in different spots, though they all were dominated by IEs of mostly R1a and R1b type. Atlantic fringe is even more enigmatic with unquestionable dominance of R1b. Dominance might have started in Neolithic from local WHG with R1b haplotype, later replaced and topped up with IE Celtic R1b type.
Y DNA is so virulent that it is hard to decipher the past older than 2,000 years. To really know that you are right in your conclusion we would need to find farmer DNA right before and right after IE invasion.

 

[Yetos]

All I can guess is that balkan hunter gatherers were I1.

 

[bicicleur 2]

All I can guess is that balkan hunter gatherers were I1.

that came to my mind too

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

^ That is only one of possible explanations. This may also indicate that Balkan-admixed waves of Anatolian farmers who reached northern and western Europe later got extinct, replaced by Indo-Europeans coming from Russia. Modern EEF ancestry in Europe can be mostly from Ukrainian farmers (Trypillian EEF), and HG ancestry from Ukrainian hunters (pre-Trypillian HGs). It is possible that Trypillians - despite being farmers - were heavily HG-admixed (more than farmers in the rest of Europe) and had a lot of men with I2 and I1 haplogroups. This would explain why in the Bronze Age I2 and I1 - assimilated early on by IEs - proliferated much better than G2a.

Maybe it's just that EEFs descended from Anatolian Farmers who were unadmixed with Balkan HGs.

 

[Angela]

Actually, the latest "modeling" shows 30-35% and sometimes higher "Natufian" in northwestern Europeans, 35-40% in central Europeans, and starting in the low 40s in southern Europe.

The only people who get 25% are probably those in the Baltics.

The mtDna of the "Indo-European" women is hardly mostly EHG. U4 and U5 are at the most around 20% of the total and most of that wouldn't come from "Indo-European" women, which leads me to LeBroc's point.

It's been pretty clear for a while that there is more EHG (and WHG) in parts of Europe than can be explained by using an admixture of MN Central Europeans and Yamnaya. Ever since the Haak et al paper came, and thus before the modeling began to show this phenomenon, I said that the models probably over-estimated the "Indo-European" impact because there was likely a reservoir of WHG and/or EHG somewhere to the west of the steppe.

I'm not sure that the samples analyzed in this paper indicate there were "EHG" or "EHG-like" foragers in the Balkans. We'll have to wait for the paper. If they do, then it's indeed a mystery what happened to this admixed EEF/Balkan forager group. At first I thought that perhaps they contributed to Balkan and perhaps Italian genetics, if not to the rest of Europeans, but the abstract clearly says that "The hunter-gatherer admixture in the early farmers of the Balkans is not closely related to the hunter-gatherer admixture that is predominant in present-day Europeans. "

Now, it may be that they don't have a sample of this Balkan forager, but I would be very surprised if the Reich Lab can't be trusted to figure out what kind of forager ancestry went into this group. From the description it would seem to be "related to " EHG/SHG, but not precisely like them.

I don't know why anyone would say there's more EHG than WHG in Europe. That's not at all what I recall seeing in either the academic or the modeler work.

 

[LeBrok]

I don't know why anyone would say there's more EHG than WHG in Europe. That's not at all what I recall seeing in either the academic or the modeler work.

Perhaps they analyzed WHG in EHG so precisely that they could recognize it as only coming and specific to EHG genome? Therefore they could say with certainty that majority of WHG portion in modern Europeans come directly from EHG.
That would be my guess.
Let's say that WHG comes from bottlenecking and refugium in Anatolia/South Balkans and started to spread from there after LGM 16 kya. Some of it stayed in Balkans and from there went to Western Europe, other part went to North East Europe and the Steppe and mixed with ANE type of Hunter Gatherer creating EHG. The split could have happened 10 ky before the EHG lived (6 kya), from which we got the samples from Russia. That's 10 thousand years of separate evolution and long enough time for independent mutations occurring helping us recognize WHG DNA being distinct in EHG, when compared to WHG in Balkans and Western Europe.

 

[Fire Haired14]

I don't know why anyone would say there's more EHG than WHG in Europe. That's not at all what I recall seeing in either the academic or the modeler work.

It varies by region and model. Southern Europe(xBasque) in every model I've seen score significantly more EHG than WHG. Basque might be the only ones who for sure have as much WHG as EHG. Some models have most of Italy having less than 10% WHG and close to 20% EHG. EHG is usually more important than WHG because one Chalcolithic European ancestor Steppe was 50-60% EHG and the other Chalcolithic European ancestor MN was 10-30% WHG. There's extra WHG beyond what Chalcolithic genomes can explain, but it doesn't get as high as EHG.

It's been pretty clear for a while that there is more EHG (and WHG) in parts of Europe than can be explained by using an admixture of MN Central Europeans and Yamnaya.

I disagree. I haven't read anything suggesting excess EHG. The EHG /ANE signal in Europe is mostly Steppe, the dye was caste a long time ago. Hungary_BA(From Gamba 2014) I think likely has a lot of this Balkan_HG stuff but not modern Europeans(except maybe Balkaners). Interestingly One Hungary_BA guy(From Allentoft 2015) might be mostly WHG(Balkan_HG?) while another one had hardly any, almost a pure Anatolian EF. WHG/EEF Y DNA dominance persisted there till 2000 BC as well.

 

[Huitzilopochtli]

^ That is only one of possible explanations. This may also indicate that Balkan-admixed waves of Anatolian farmers who reached northern and western Europe later got extinct, replaced by Indo-Europeans coming from Russia. Modern EEF ancestry in Europe can be mostly from Ukrainian farmers (Trypillian EEF), and HG ancestry from Ukrainian hunters (pre-Trypillian HGs). It is possible that Trypillians - despite being farmers - were heavily HG-admixed (more than farmers in the rest of Europe) and had a lot of men with I2 and I1 haplogroups. This would explain why in the Bronze Age I2 and I1 - assimilated early on by IEs - proliferated much better than G2a.

Can we rule out that I2 was an Anatolian farmer lineage? Maybe drift had made it more common among the Tripollians. If I2 is derived primarily from European hunter gatherers, could more marginal communities that relied more on hunting and were I2 heavy and G2a light have been more likely to survive the IE onslaught. Perhaps G2a guys were too dependent on farming to survive when the IE invaders turned their farmland into pasture.

 

[LeBrok]

Can we rule out that I2 was an Anatolian farmer lineage? Maybe drift had made it more common among the Tripollians. If I2 is derived primarily from European hunter gatherers, could more marginal communities that relied more on hunting and were I2 heavy and G2a light have been more likely to survive the IE onslaught. Perhaps G2a guys were too dependent on farming to survive when the IE invaders turned their farmland into pasture.

During Last Glacial Maximum many european hunter gatherers found refuge deep in southern Europe and Anatolia. Anatolia was the first place G2a farmers met I2 hunter gatherers and started mixing with them about 10kya. The farther North Anatolian Farmers went the more they mixed with I2 hunter gatherers, so called WHG. Definitely WHG were more genetically suited to live and survive in colder climate. Therefore the more farmers mixed with WHGs the higher their chance to survive in case of failed crops were.
I think the ultimate mix of farmer/hunter came from Yamnaya in shape of Corded Ware Culture and Bell Beaker Culture, which largely replaced Late Neolithic farmers, and dominated Northern Europe, together with their descendents, since bronze age till today.
Welcome to Eupedia Huitzilopochtli.

 

[Hauteville]

Are there informations of the haplogroups?