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Thread: Cultural rather than demographic Neolithization in Eastern Europe

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    LeBrok,

    You were the one claiming that all farmers were genetically the same and only one group ever switched to farming. \
    Never. Please site me saying otherwise.


    As ancient DNA from the Middle East shows - that claim was wrong. There were several genetically very distinct groups of hunter-gatherers, who became farmers without even mixing with each other (e.g. Levantines, Iranians and Anatolians).
    Yes and Chinese and some groups in America like Mayans. It was never a secret.

    The point which you didn't grasp is that no HG group can change to farming from only cultural/learning aspect. To change from HG to farmers, on its own, takes couple of thousands of years, because genetic adaptation to farming needs to happen. If you are HG and you want your kids to farm, marry a farmer, so your kids have farming genes.


    This paper about Baltic Neolithic shows that there was yet another group - because no Anatolian admixture was found
    Was does this mean?
    we also detected signals consistent with influxes from non-local populations
    Neolithic Iranian Farmer?


    So the whole Farmer Supremacy agenda claiming that without having "farmer genes" you cannot farm, is falling apart.
    This is your weird way to see the world. The supremacy, the superior, the better, etc. I just see patterns. That's all.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Natufians (Hunters from Levant) belong to E1b. After farmer migration into the Levant, we find H2 and T1* (xT1a1, T1a2, T1a3a) together with non-natufian autosomal admixture. Where you found HG Levantines became "Farmers" without non-natufian admixture?
    You are confusing uniparental DNA with autosomal DNA and its admixtures. Anatolian Farmers had at least 50% of Natufian admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    The neolithic in the Baltic was introduced by Corded Ware Culture, which was mostly Yamnaya and thus substantially different from Anatolians.
    Yes. They also had 10-15% of EEF, and also should have some Iranian Neolithic too. I would guess about 30% farmer genes. Steppe_MLBA was 45% Iranian/Anatolian Farmer.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Lebrok,

    A btw; Corded Ware was more Near Eastern than Yamnaya and definitely more farmer descended because many of Yamnaya's Near Eastern ancestors could have been hunter gatherers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    BTW, I know the results for the upcoming Baltic aDNA paper. No one is 100% correct yet. Only clue I'll give is some of the results defy geography.
    SibHG?
    .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    SibHG?
    .....
    You mean EHG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    You mean EHG?
    Please don't tell anyone what I told you.

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    I have my own sources ;)
    Which matched with your sources :)

    But in general I would suggest to read any Raisa Denisova work on Baltic anthropology. It is all there.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I also have promissed my source to not spill the beens, but of course it is hard :)
    In meantime you can check this by Raisa:
    http://estudijas.lu.lv/mod/page/view.php?id=30367
    You need to "reģistrēties kā viesim" (register as guest) to access further info in English. It is extremely helpful when discussing matters of Baltic anthropology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    You mean EHG?
    Nope, Siberia is not in Europe...

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    Can anyone with insider information shade light on when the paper or pre-print will be available on aDNA of the Baltic region? Few months? Six months?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    BTW, I know the results for the upcoming Baltic aDNA paper. No one is 100% correct yet. Only clue I'll give is some of the results defy geography.
    Defy in genome-wide comparison or in terms of Y-DNA structure? Elaborate please.:)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    You're ignoring aDNA data. EHG was mostly R1a/b.
    Don't think so. EHG auDNA is pretty younger and recent, while R1a/b is at least tens of thousands of years old. Y-DNA haplogroups predate all modern auDNA...

    Or do you think than EHG auDNA component is 30,000 years old?

    R1* & R2 are maybe related to more ancient ANE or something like ANE, but ANE something is partly ancestral to EHG..

    So R1*, R1b, R2 is also very much related and connected to the Iranian Plateau.


    EHG auDNA is as much related to Y-DNA hg. N1, Q etc. as to hg. R1a..


    EHG auDNA component = Mongoloid + Caucasoid lineages..


    It is also possible that over time auDNA of Y-DNA hg. R1a could be deluted in the Steppes.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    EHG auDNA is as much related to Y-DNA hg. N1
    There is no N1 in EHG samples. The oldest N1 in Europe is from 2500 BC from a Late Neolithic farmer-fisher who lived near Smolensk.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    There is no N1 in EHG samples. The oldest N1 in Europe is from 2500 BC from a Late Neolithic farmer-fisher who lived near Smolensk.
    What do you mean by 'Europe'? Everything west of Wolga river? If so, then more than 75% of Russia is not Europe but Asia. Are Russians European? At least 25% of Russians do belong to hg. N1c1. Are Finns Europeans, because more than 60% of the Finns are Y-DNA hg. N1c1. In the Baltics it is more than 40 %. Hg. N1* and Q are native to the Eurasian Steppes, Eastern Europe and Eastern Asia, while very exotic in Western Europe and West Asia brought by the Turanic people.

    From the latest DNA paper of the Steppes, they found Y-DNA lineages that are exotic in West Asia and SouthWestern Europe and do almost not exist there..


    Don't you see the link? everywhere where is lots of hg. N1c1 there is lots of EHG auDNA. In Finland there is ONLY 5% of R1a and 4% R1b, while in Spain there is 70% R1b!!! Finland has more EHG than Spain, how is it possible?

    The fact that EHG is low in Spain, while there is more than 70% of R1b in Spain, means that R1b* has NOTHING to do with EHG...


    EHG is NOT related to R1b and R1a, because if EHG was related to R1b there would be much more EHG in Spain than in Finland.


    There where EHG is high, hg. N1 and Q percentages are also very high.


    auDNA is just more than 1 Y-DNA or mt-DNA. auDNA is a combination of many Y-DNA & mt-DNA haplogroups.


    EHG is related to N1 & Q as much as to R1a. That's why EHG auDNA component is partly a 'Mongoloid' partly 'Caucasoid' component that came into existense when 'Mongoloid' and 'Caucasoid' Y-DNA & mtDNA haplogroups mixed with each other.


    EHG auDNA is hybrid and much, much more mixed than WHG, CHG and IranianPlateau auDNA.



    IMO the most pure and "Caucasoid" auDNA is CHG !!!!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    David at Eurogenes modeled it Half EHG, a third CHG and the remainder something like Anatolia and came up with a pretty good fit. I like it because it would mean admixture by neighbour groups (CHG, Cucutine-Trypolje) that both have been thought of a great influences to either Yamnaya (CT) or Indo-European culture (Caucasian), so it doesn't needs that strange thing that you propose, to wit that the more closeby CHG didn't contribute as much as remote Zagros farmers.

    The good part of that post is that Iosif Lazaridis actually courteously posted a reply:



    http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/06...rers-iran.html
    I've never understood one thing about this argument: who says that the CHG still existed as a separate population at the time that this admixture took place?

    Just because using an ancient group gets an ok fit in these stats doesn't mean it makes sense. Goodness, look at all the "great fits" for admixtures that were produced which turned out never to have happened.

    As for the periodic interventions from the Reich Lab, they strike me as just that: interventions. They pop in when people are running around in circles. Of course, they can't reveal what's going to be in their papers, so they're often very cryptic. I wouldn't take it as a ringing endorsement of the conclusions, far less the unsavory associations of some of the people involved.

    As to gene flow from "Old Europe" onto the steppe, I think it did take place, but I've yet to be convinced it reached the eastern part of the Yamnaya horizon from which we have most of our samples.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've never understood one thing about this argument: who says that the CHG still existed as a separate population at the time that this admixture took place?

    Just because using an ancient group gets an ok fit in these stats doesn't mean it makes sense. Goodness, look at all the "great fits" for admixtures that were produced which turned out never to have happened.

    .

    Angela, Exactly, Exactly.
    So What Culture brought CHG to steppe?

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    Originally Posted by MarkoZ
    The archeological record alone makes it obvious that farming techniques diffused rather rapidly across the Dniepr-Don and Comb Ceramic horizons. Even some of the northernmost Pit-Comb settlements reveal that farming accounted for up to 50% of the inhabitants' sustenance with no traces of accompanying migrations.

    What puzzles me however is how the populations along the Baltic shores developed from Corded Ware moving into a sort of terra nulla. There must have been a significant shift towards a population with increased Basal Eurasian affinity later on. Did this happen with the circum-Baltic spread of the Baltic languages? Do we have samples in this region from, say, the very late Bronze age to Iron age and/or evidence pointing to discontinuities in settlement to test this?


    Angela: Do you have some citations you could provide for the highlighted statements? When did agriculture spread to these areas and in what context?


    Most of what I've seen written on Pitted Ware is very skeptical that they ever took up farming at all. Some have speculated it's even a different group of people who moved into the area from further east.

    See, for example this 2016 book on the spread of domesticated animals in Europe.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=K6...ulture&f=false

    So, as of now I'm still of the opinion that farming came to the Baltic very late, and with actual farmers.

    I'm ready to be persuaded otherwise, however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps it would be best to wait for the paper. This is a more than unusually cryptic abstract.

    However, I don't see anything in the abstract stating that agriculture was adopted through acculturation by the presumably WHG or SHG inhabitants of the Baltics. I'm not saying that might not be the case, but there's no proof of that presented in the abstract.

    So, if anyone is jumping the gun to generalize from a snippet of information, it would seem to be the OP.

    They specifically say that the transition occurred during a period of genetic flux. It's just that the genetic inflow doesn't seem to have been from the farming communities of central Europe.

    I agree with the following:




    The bolding is mine. Corded Ware did contain EEF to some degree, although I'm sure there was variation in the amount from group to group.

    I'd also add that I've been saying since the original big Lazaridis paper, as has LeBroc, that there very probably may have been a large reservoir of WHG, and perhaps EHG, in certain areas, that experienced a transition to farming and metallurgy at the same time. That might inflate the supposed admixture figures for "Indo-European" input.
    Without having the ambition to ask you in marriage, I must say your "cooling down" is welcome! Let's read only what is written. We can disagree about what is written (perhaps?), why disgaree about what is not? LOL. Even Balts have EEFlike admixture today, and it has to come from somewhere and CT-C is a good bet for providers through CWC maybe, even if this element is rather low in % in Balts pops. It is surely a bit higher among Slavs spite not overwhelming.

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    ancient pops: A, B, C, D
    between pops: '1', '2', '3' ...
    modern pops &, $, £
    if 1 is 50/50 A+B, and say 2 is C
    if & is 25 A, 25 B and 50 C, how can we be sure without more accurate testings (IBD) that :
    & is admixture of 50 C+25 A+25 B > or < 50 C+50 '1' ??? this a simplistic approach I know but I shows the problem I think (things could be very more complicated with '&' having at diverse periods inherited from C, &, A or/and B ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Without having the ambition to ask you in marriage, I must say your "cooling down" is welcome! Let's read only what is written. We can disagree about what is written (perhaps?), why disgaree about what is not? LOL. Even Balts have EEFlike admixture today, and it has to come from somewhere and CT-C is a good bet for providers through CWC maybe, even if this element is rather low in % in Balts pops. It is surely a bit higher among Slavs spite not overwhelming.
    That's ok...mutual collegial respect will more than do. It certainly exists from my end. :)

    I'm rather "off" marriage, anyway, at this stage of my life...been there, done that...never would do it again. :)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Angela you broke my heart! The fact is I'm with my second wife and I think I'll stop here my collection. I remind a breton joke where it's question of dead people presented to Sant Petrus (Saint Pierre), and tailing: two men with lives far to have been respectuous of God laws: the first find as excuse he had a wife: S-P opens him the Paradise door. The second, having heard what had been said to the first, said immediately: "I have been married two times"; S-P: "Straigth away to Hell: there is no place in Paradise for stupid persons!" I confess (it's the right term here) I feel a bit unquiet now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post




    Most of what I've seen written on Pitted Ware is very skeptical that they ever took up farming at all. Some have speculated it's even a different group of people who moved into the area from further east.

    See, for example this 2016 book on the spread of domesticated animals in Europe.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=K6...ulture&f=false

    So, as of now I'm still of the opinion that farming came to the Baltic very late, and with actual farmers.

    I'm ready to be persuaded otherwise, however.
    While I agree with your views regarding the late arrival of farming in Pitted Ware and the ultimate eastern provenience of the HG cultures in the North-East, I was talking about the Dnepr-Don and Comb-Ceramic cultures that lie further east. The earliest arrival of agriculture in the northern Baltic was found in the Estonian Narva complex.

    Further south the early traces of agriculture date as far back as Bug-Dniestr in the fifth millennium B.C. according to Dolukhanov. Ivanova holds that the cultures centered around Azov and the Don adopted farming more than 1000 years later, usually to supply their fish-game based diet with grain produce. I am not aware of any signs of concomitant movements of people, but I should probably retract my earlier poorly-worded statement to the effect that there was no population exchange whatsoever. These things are notoriously hard to track in archaeology as we have seen before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've never understood one thing about this argument: who says that the CHG still existed as a separate population at the time that this admixture took place?

    Just because using an ancient group gets an ok fit in these stats doesn't mean it makes sense. Goodness, look at all the "great fits" for admixtures that were produced which turned out never to have happened.
    Fair enough, I agree. However, that also happened to fits in papers. Furthermore, in the PCA of the CHG paper Yamnaya pulls toward EEF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for the periodic interventions from the Reich Lab, they strike me as just that: interventions. They pop in when people are running around in circles. Of course, they can't reveal what's going to be in their papers, so they're often very cryptic. I wouldn't take it as a ringing endorsement of the conclusions, far less the unsavory associations of some of the people involved.

    As to gene flow from "Old Europe" onto the steppe, I think it did take place, but I've yet to be convinced it reached the eastern part of the Yamnaya horizon from which we have most of our samples.
    If David were just a blogger I would agree, but his findings often agree with papers: Take for instance traces of ANE in Han.

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    I don't know too much what to do with this but:
    papers about neolithic mt-DNA and the today pops mt-DNA proximity to it show everytime some constant facts:
    - Basques, Gascons and Cantabrians are among the less close to Near-Eastern mt;
    - Balts, Estonians: the same statement
    - at the contrary a region I place between Bela-Russia and Moscow and maybe a bit around Moscow show always more proximity to first farmers and Near-East concerning the diverse Neolithic mt lignages. I first thought it could be a recent enough effect of Moscow attraction on people of Caucasus and surroundings but it's strange that the most of Ukraina, closer to Caucasus and very important economically (Don region industries) shows nevertheless less proximity to farmers and Near-East. than this W-Moscow region.
    &: about subsequent neolithical culture of Hungary/Carpathian Bassin before the Metals: a not too new but detailed paper by Anna Szécsényi-Nagy (I had red only short abstract with graphic); interesting fact: the late Neol BL (Balaton-Lasinga culture) shows reinforcing of mt-T1a after its almost fading out, and global mt-DNA closer to South-Levant, Egypt, and Lybia.
    that said, concerning C-T C input in North I recall that whatever their value some admixture poolings show Balts have more 'sardinian', less 'basque' and almost no 'gedrosia' compared to Scandinavians and Northwesterners of Europe. So maybe few farmers females in TODAY Baltic (reduced) lands but the little EEF auDNA (males?) was maybe rather CTC than South-East Caspian farmers.

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