Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 62

Thread: Cultural rather than demographic Neolithization in Eastern Europe

  1. #1
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,463
    Points
    56,443
    Level
    73
    Points: 56,443, Level: 73
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 607
    Overall activity: 18.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Cultural rather than demographic Neolithization in Eastern Europe

    Another lesson showing that it is better to avoid sweeping generalizations based on snippets of data. This paper is specifically about North-Eastern Europe (the Baltic region), but I suppose that people of the Trypillian culture in Ukraine will also turn out to be much more Euro HG and much less of Non-Euro immigrant ancestry than more westerly Neolithic groups:

    The Neolithic Transition at the Edge of Europe

    Jones et al.

    In Europe, the Neolithic transition marked the beginning of a period of innovations which saw people move from a mobile lifestyle, dependent on hunting and gathering for survival, to a more sedentary way of life based on food production. This new lifeway, which began in the Near East ~11 kya, spread quickly across the continental interior of Europe predominantly through demic diffusion.

    While the genetic impact of the Neolithic transition has been well explored in central Europe, its impact on more peripheral regions of the continent has not been as extensively studied. To broaden our understanding of this dynamic phase in European prehistory, we analysed genomes from a 4,000 year temporal transect through the Baltic region spanning from the Late Mesolithic to the Late Neolithic period. We found evidence for connectivity from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic however, we also detected signals consistent with influxes from non-local populations. These influences were distinct from the early farmer admixture which transformed the genetic landscape of central Europe during the Neolithic. Interestingly, dietary stable isotope analyses (δ15N and δ 13C) show that the genetic shifts coincide with diversifications in subsistence strategy. These results suggest that the Neolithic was a period of genetic flux in the Baltic however, the cultural and technological changes observed were largely independent of forager-farmer genetic exchange.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,083
    Points
    8,654
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,654, Level: 27
    Level completed: 84%, Points required for next Level: 96
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    The abstract is saying what it is already known: EEF were geneticaly different of the CWC which peopled the Baltics.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Another lesson showing that it is better to avoid sweeping generalizations based on snippets of data. This paper is specifically about North-Eastern Europe (the Baltic region), but I suppose that people of the Trypillian culture in Ukraine will also turn out to be much more Euro HG and much less of Non-Euro immigrant ancestry than more westerly Neolithic groups:
    It is so disappointing that to push your anti farmer agenda you even cherry pick sentences in introduction.
    show that the genetic shifts coincide with diversifications in subsistence strategy. These results suggest that the Neolithic was a period of genetic flux in the Baltic however,
    Are you saying that farmers came but forgot how to farm? Forgot their technologies?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  4. #4
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,463
    Points
    56,443
    Level
    73
    Points: 56,443, Level: 73
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 607
    Overall activity: 18.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    LeBrok,

    You were the one claiming that all farmers were genetically the same and only one group ever switched to farming.

    As ancient DNA from the Middle East shows - that claim was wrong. There were several genetically very distinct groups of hunter-gatherers, who became farmers without even mixing with each other (e.g. Levantines, Iranians and Anatolians).

    This paper about Baltic Neolithic shows that there was yet another group - because no Anatolian admixture was found:

    we also detected signals consistent with influxes from non-local populations. These influences were distinct from the early farmer admixture which transformed the genetic landscape of central Europe during the Neolithic.
    So the whole Farmer Supremacy agenda claiming that without having "farmer genes" you cannot farm, is falling apart.

  5. #5
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Neolithization of the Steppes occurred by incoming farmers from Iran - South Central Asia (Eastern parts of the Iranian Plateau) and not from Anatolia or Levant...

    Neolithization of Southern and Central Europe occurred by incoming farmers from Anatolia.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27459054

  6. #6
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Neolithization of the Steppes occurred by incoming farmers from South Central Asia (Eastern parts of the Iranian Plateau) and not from Anatolia or Levant...

    Neolithization of Southern Europe occurred by incoming farmers from Anatolia or Levant.
    From Harvard site:


    " Farmers related to the Anatolian group spread west into Europe, people related to the Levant group moved south into East Africa, people related to those in Iran or the Caucasus went north into the Russian steppe, and people related to both the farmers in Iran and hunter-gatherers from the steppe spread into South Asia. "

    http://hms.harvard.edu/news/meet-first-farmers



    " The descendants of these early farmers went separate ways. Whereas the western Anatolians later migrated to Europe, Reich's team proposes that the ancient farmers of the Levant migrated to East Africa, where living people carry some of their distinct DNA, and the Zagros Mountain farmers spread north into the Eurasian steppe and east into South Asia. "

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/...singly-diverse

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27459054

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-03-11
    Posts
    246
    Points
    9,303
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,303, Level: 28
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 47
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    LeBrok,

    You were the one claiming that all farmers were genetically the same and only one group ever switched to farming.

    As ancient DNA from the Middle East shows - that claim was wrong. There were several genetically very distinct groups of hunter-gatherers, who became farmers without even mixing with each other (e.g. Levantines, Iranians and Anatolians).

    This paper about Baltic Neolithic shows that there was yet another group - because no Anatolian admixture was found:



    So the whole Farmer Supremacy agenda claiming that without having "farmer genes" you cannot farm, is falling apart.
    Natufians (Hunters from Levant) belong to E1b. After farmer migration into the Levant, we find H2 and T1* (xT1a1, T1a2, T1a3a) together with non-natufian autosomal admixture. Where you found HG Levantines became "Farmers" without non-natufian admixture?

  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    777
    Points
    10,375
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,375, Level: 30
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    From Harvard site:


    " Farmers related to the Anatolian group spread west into Europe, people related to the Levant group moved south into East Africa, people related to those in Iran or the Caucasus went north into the Russian steppe, and people related to both the farmers in Iran and hunter-gatherers from the steppe spread into South Asia. "

    http://hms.harvard.edu/news/meet-first-farmers



    " The descendants of these early farmers went separate ways. Whereas the western Anatolians later migrated to Europe, Reich's team proposes that the ancient farmers of the Levant migrated to East Africa, where living people carry some of their distinct DNA, and the Zagros Mountain farmers spread north into the Eurasian steppe and east into South Asia. "

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/...singly-diverse

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27459054


    David at Eurogenes modeled it Half EHG, a third CHG and the remainder something like Anatolia and came up with a pretty good fit. I like it because it would mean admixture by neighbour groups (CHG, Cucutine-Trypolje) that both have been thought of a great influences to either Yamnaya (CT) or Indo-European culture (Caucasian), so it doesn't needs that strange thing that you propose, to wit that the more closeby CHG didn't contribute as much as remote Zagros farmers.

    The good part of that post is that Iosif Lazaridis actually courteously posted a reply:

    Overall, our admixture analysis rejects several possible models (such as EHG+CHG) and thus puts constraints on what may have happened, and also proposes some models that are more resilient to rejection (such as EHG+Iran_ChL+CHG). But, by no means should these be regarded as the final word or unique solutions, but rather as one possible way that the data can be modeled.
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/06...rers-iran.html

  9. #9
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    777
    Points
    10,375
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,375, Level: 30
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Netherlands



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It is so disappointing that to push your anti farmer agenda you even cherry pick sentences in introduction.

    Are you saying that farmers came but forgot how to farm? Forgot their technologies?
    The neolithic in the Baltic was introduced by Corded Ware Culture, which was mostly Yamnaya and thus substantially different from Anatolians.

  10. #10
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    David at Eurogenes modeled it Half EHG, a third CHG and the remainder something like Anatolia and came up with a pretty good fit. I like it because it would mean admixture by neighbour groups (CHG, Cucutine-Trypolje) that both have been thought of a great influences to either Yamnaya (CT) or Indo-European culture (Caucasian), so it doesn't needs that strange thing that you propose, to wit that the more closeby CHG didn't contribute as much as remote Zagros farmers.

    The good part of that post is that Iosif Lazaridis actually courteously posted a reply:



    http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/06...rers-iran.html
    David is a Polish 'durak'. I don't take him seriously for even less than 1%.


    It is not 'my' proposal. But it is what the current established academia is thinking. All those most recent articles at the Harvard university about this issue are not written by me, lol.


    It is not what David, you or I like. It is all about what science is telling us...

  11. #11
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    IMO it is very plausible that during the Neolithization process of the Steppes it was the time when R1a-S224 (R1a1a1b) entered Eastern Europe from the Iranian Plateau.


    Then R1a ancestors of European R1a-Z282 mixed with the native N1c1 & Q population of the Balitcs and other peripheral areas in Eastern Europe

  12. #12
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    The neolithic in the Baltic was introduced by Corded Ware Culture, which was mostly Yamnaya and thus substantially different from Anatolians.
    However it is true that the peripheral areas in the Balitcs (native homeland of Y-DNA hg. N1C1 & Q likes) are the LEAST Neolithized and Indo-Europeanized areas of the Indo-European speaking world.

  13. #13
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    IMO it is very plausible that during the Neolithization process of the Steppes it was the time when R1a-S224 (R1a1a1b) entered Eastern Europe from the Iranian Plateau.


    Then R1a ancestors of European R1a-Z282 mixed with the native N1c1 & Q population of the Balitcs and other peripheral areas in Eastern Europe
    Due to the bottleneck effect the farmer R1a hg. exploded among the population of peripheral areas in a very short time. That's why most R1a folks in Eastern Europe share common ancestors who lived not so long time ago and actually during the Neolithization of the Steppes..

  14. #14
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,699
    Points
    240,870
    Level
    100
    Points: 240,870, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Perhaps it would be best to wait for the paper. This is a more than unusually cryptic abstract.

    However, I don't see anything in the abstract stating that agriculture was adopted through acculturation by the presumably WHG or SHG inhabitants of the Baltics. I'm not saying that might not be the case, but there's no proof of that presented in the abstract.

    So, if anyone is jumping the gun to generalize from a snippet of information, it would seem to be the OP.

    They specifically say that the transition occurred during a period of genetic flux. It's just that the genetic inflow doesn't seem to have been from the farming communities of central Europe.

    I agree with the following:


    Epoch: The neolithic in the Baltic was introduced by Corded Ware Culture, which was mostly Yamnaya and thus substantially different from Anatolians.
    The bolding is mine. Corded Ware did contain EEF to some degree, although I'm sure there was variation in the amount from group to group.

    I'd also add that I've been saying since the original big Lazaridis paper, as has LeBroc, that there very probably may have been a large reservoir of WHG, and perhaps EHG, in certain areas, that experienced a transition to farming and metallurgy at the same time. That might inflate the supposed admixture figures for "Indo-European" input.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  15. #15
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    998
    Points
    12,842
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,842, Level: 34
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    However it is true that the peripheral areas in the Balitcs (native homeland of Y-DNA hg. N1C1 & Q likes) are the LEAST Neolithized and Indo-Europeanized areas of the Indo-European speaking world.
    Goga is back :)))))))

    I will save your quote for after data from East Baltic adna gets published :) Which I hope is going to be rather sooner than later....

  16. #16
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    998
    Points
    12,842
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,842, Level: 34
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    and much less of Non-Euro immigrant ancestry than more westerly Neolithic groups:
    Man....


    Ok, on topic. I am not sure how this paper says it was cultural not genetic. I am rather convinced CW (or GAC for that matter) that brought agriculture to Baltics made a lot of genetic impact too.

  17. #17
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    777
    Points
    10,375
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,375, Level: 30
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    David is a Polish 'durak'. I don't take him seriously for even less than 1%.


    It is not 'my' proposal. But it is what the current established academia is thinking. All those most recent articles at the Harvard university about this issue are not written by me, lol.


    It is not what David, you or I like. It is all about what science is telling us...
    Let me explain this a tad better: The author of the Reich lab article you refer to - Iosif Lazaridis - took the time to respond on Davids blog. So you may not take him seriously, the current established academia certainly does to a far larger extent.

    His model: http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/07...teppeemba.html

  18. #18
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    777
    Points
    10,375
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,375, Level: 30
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Netherlands



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps it would be best to wait for the paper. This is a more than unusually cryptic abstract.

    However, I don't see anything in the abstract stating that agriculture was adopted through acculturation by the presumably WHG or SHG inhabitants of the Baltics. I'm not saying that might not be the case, but there's no proof of that presented in the abstract.

    So, if anyone is jumping the gun to generalize from a snippet of information, it would seem to be the OP.

    They specifically say that the transition occurred during a period of genetic flux. It's just that the genetic inflow doesn't seem to have been from the farming communities of central Europe.

    I agree with the following:




    The bolding is mine. Corded Ware did contain EEF to some degree, although I'm sure there was variation in the amount from group to group.

    I'd also add that I've been saying since the original big Lazaridis paper, as has LeBroc, that there very probably may have been a large reservoir of WHG, and perhaps EHG, in certain areas, that experienced a transition to farming and metallurgy at the same time. That might inflate the supposed admixture figures for "Indo-European" input.
    We don't know if Ertebölla and Swifterband are WHG cultures that ran parallel to LBK. But I am willing to bet a months salary they were as they showed very little, very slow adaptation to agriculture, a very extensive fishing and hunting culture and a habit of keeping (probably herding, masting) pigs. From the Pitted Ware cultures which are extremely similar we know they are HG continuation.

    EDIT: We have the example of KO1, a Neolithic WHG sample from Hungary. Furthermore we see an increase in WHG admixture in Iberians MN samples as well as in MN German and Swedish samples. Also, Allentoft needed yet an extra shot of WHG at the start of the Late Neolithic. Those extra admixtures had to come from somewhere.

  19. #19
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Let me explain this a tad better: The author of the Reich lab article you refer to - Iosif Lazaridis - took the time to respond on Davids blog. So you may not take him seriously, the current established academia certainly does to a far larger extent.

    His model: http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/07...teppeemba.html
    I'm sure you are acquainted with the fact that Reich lab article was published AFTER Iosif Lazaridis made his comments, right??

    I don't see any serious issues to what folks from Harvard are proposing. By the time when Neolithic farmers entered the Steppes, those Iranian Neolithic farmers were already mixed and were not fully 'Iran Chalcolithics' like their ancestors who lived thousands of years before them.

    By the time when Neolithic farmer entered the Steppes from the Eastern Parts of the Iranian Plateau (Turkmenistan area), those Neolithic farmers were already mixed with the CHG-kind of people on the Iranian Plateau. People on the Iranian Plateau gradually changed and influenced by incoming folks who lived west to them.




    Sure, the current established academia is certainly much broader than Harvard university, but that Polish durak David is not part of it and will never be part of it, he has neither the education nor analytical skills (IQ) for it. Whith other words that Polish durak David fella is nothing and nobody. I don't pay any attention to farts of nobodies...

  20. #20
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Repetition of lies doesn't make something a fact by the end of the day. People can repeat their lies and propaganda as much as they want and invest a lot of time (years) in their lies, but at the end of the day the truth and true science will defeat and sweep those lies out in one millisecond of time. This is why I love science!

  21. #21
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    The archeological record alone makes it obvious that farming techniques diffused rather rapidly across the Dniepr-Don and Comb Ceramic horizons. Even some of the northernmost Pit-Comb settlements reveal that farming accounted for up to 50% of the inhabitants' sustenance with no traces of accompanying migrations.

    What puzzles me however is how the populations along the Baltic shores developed from Corded Ware moving into a sort of terra nullius. There must have been a significant shift towards a population with increased Basal Eurasian affinity later on. Did this happen with the circum-Baltic spread of the Baltic languages? Do we have samples in this region from, say, the very late Bronze age to Iron age and/or evidence pointing to discontinuities in settlement to test this?
    Last edited by MarkoZ; 15-09-16 at 06:03.

  22. #22
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,699
    Points
    240,870
    Level
    100
    Points: 240,870, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    The archeological record alone makes it obvious that farming techniques diffused rather rapidly across the Dniepr-Don and Comb Ceramic horizons. Even some of the northernmost Pit-Comb settlements reveal that farming accounted for up to 50% of the inhabitants' sustenance with no traces of accompanying migrations.

    What puzzles me however is how the populations along the Baltic shores developed from Corded Ware moving into a sort of terra nulla. There must have been a significant shift towards a population with increased Basal Eurasian affinity later on. Did this happen with the circum-Baltic spread of the Baltic languages? Do we have samples in this region from, say, the very late Bronze age to Iron age and/or evidence pointing to discontinuities in settlement to test this?
    Do you have some citations you could provide for the highlighted statements? When did agriculture spread to these areas and in what context?

  23. #23
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Tomenable, the East Baltic Neolithic was still HG-genetically because farmers never settled there. They didn't enter the Neolithic as Western Europe did, by the settlement of foreign farmers. So the East Baltic doesn't prove we made generalizations. We've all suspected hunter gatherers remained there unaffected by farmers till 2000-3000 BC for years now.

  24. #24
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Then R1a ancestors of European R1a-Z282 mixed with the native N1c1 & Q population of the Balitcs and other peripheral areas in Eastern Europe
    You're ignoring aDNA data. EHG was mostly R1a/b.

  25. #25
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    BTW, I know the results for the upcoming Baltic aDNA paper. No one is 100% correct yet. Only clue I'll give is some of the results defy geography.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •