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Thread: R1b in "Royal" Mongol Grave?

  1. #1
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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    R1b in "Royal" Mongol Grave?

    Well, there are some extraordinary claims here...
    After reading the whole paper, let's say that while I think it's certainly possible, I'm not totally convinced that this is the lineage of Genghis Khan.

    See:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0161622

    Molecular Genealogy of a Mongol Queen’s Family and Her Possible Kinship with Genghis Khan

    "Members of the Mongol imperial family (designated the Golden family) are buried in a secret necropolis; therefore, none of their burial grounds have been found. In 2004, we first discovered 5 graves belonging to the Golden family in Tavan Tolgoi, Eastern Mongolia. To define the genealogy of the 5 bodies and the kinship among them, SNP and/or STR profiles of mitochondria, autosomes, and Y chromosomes were analyzed. Four of the 5 bodies were determined to carry the mitochondrial DNA haplogroup D4, while the fifth carried haplogroup CZ, indicating that this individual had no kinship with the others. Meanwhile, Y-SNP and Y-STR profiles indicate that the males examined belonged to the R1b-M343 haplogroup. Thus, their East Asian D4 or CZ matrilineal and West Eurasian R1b-M343 patrilineal origins reveal genealogical admixture between Caucasoid and Mongoloid ethnic groups, despite a Mongoloid physical appearance. In addition, Y chromosomal and autosomal STR profiles revealed that the four D4-carrying bodies bore the relationship of either mother and three sons or four full siblings with almost the same probability. Moreover, the geographical distribution of R1b-M343-carrying modern-day individuals demonstrates that descendants of Tavan Tolgoi bodies today live mainly in Western Eurasia, with a high frequency in the territories of the past Mongol khanates. Here, we propose that Genghis Khan and his family carried Y-haplogroup R1b-M343, which is prevalent in West Eurasia, rather than the Y-haplogroup C3c-M48, which is prevalent in Asia and which is widely accepted to be present in the family members of Genghis Khan. Additionally, Tavan Tolgoi bodies may have been the product of marriages between the lineage of Genghis Khan’s Borjigin clan and the lineage of either the Ongud or Hongirad clans, indicating that these individuals were members of Genghis Khan’s immediate family or his close relatives."

    Most of what the author explains about the secrecy surrounding the grave sites, the deliberate lack of markings, raises doubts in my mind as to whether this particular grave is that of the royal family versus high status graves. Perhaps someone who knows more about the era could address that, because this isn't my area of expertise.

    Let's assume, however, for the sake of argument, that it is the grave of one of Genghis Khan's daughters, and her sons. In that case, wouldn't the yDna be that of the Ongud tribe in which the grave was found rather than that of necessity of Genghis Khan himself?

    In the body of the paper the author himself is much more nuanced in his conclusions.

    "
    Collectively, our results provide three possibilities about the high genetic affinity between Tavan Tolgoi bodies and the members of Genghis Khan’s Borjigin clan. First, Tavan Tolgoi bodies would be Golden family members from qudas between the female lineage of Borjigin clan and the male lineage of rulers who dominated Eastern Mongolia, including the Ongud Kingdom. Accordingly, R1b-M343 of Tavan Tolgoi bodies reveals the Y-haplogroup of rulers of Eastern Mongolia in the Mongolian era, not that of Genghis Khan’s Borjigin clan. Second, it is plausible that R1b-M343-carrying Tavan Tolgoi bodies are somehow related to Genghis Khan’s male lineage for a similar reason to C3c-M48 being assumed as the Y-haplogroup of Genghis Khan by Zerjal and colleagues [56]. Thus, Genghis Khan may have carried Y-haplogroup R1b-M343, which is prevalent in West Eurasia, and not haplogroup C3c-M48, which is prevalent in Asia. This is based on Genghis Khan’s physical appearance, which exhibited some features of Caucasoid ethnic groups and the geographical distribution of modern-day R1b-M343 carriers. Third, we cannot entirely exclude the possibility that R1b-M343-carrying modern-day individuals are descendants of Genghis Khan’s generals or relatives who had no genetic relationship with Genghis Khan and his Borjigin clan, but exercised considerable influence throughout the past Mongol khanates including Golden Horde, Ilkhanate, and Chagatai Khanate, as the R1b-M343-carrying modern-day individuals are distributed across the 3 Mongol khanates and are not limited to specific areas, similarly to the Hazara of Pakistan

    As to the fact that it is R1b M73, I don't think that's really all that surprising. It's certainly present, as the author says, in a lot of ethnic groups with historic relationships to the Mongols, including the Bashkirs and the Hazara. It doesn't change the fact that they were autosomally Mongols.

    When it arrived in that area is another question that really isn't addressed in the paper.


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  2. #2
    MarkoZ
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    M343 is West Eurasian only in a very narrow sense - essentially if you divided the entirety of the Eurasian plate in the middle and called everything on the Western half 'West Eurasian'. It would be more sensible to say that the old M343 clades have a central Asian distribution. So the conclusion that R1b necessarily derives from Caucasoid males is bizarre.

    My first impression was that the authors intention was to make the headlines with such purposely sensationalist claims. I'm waiting for the first article stating that Genghis Khan was Irish (or Polish).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, there are some extraordinary claims here...
    After reading the whole paper, let's say that while I think it's certainly possible, I'm not totally convinced that this is the lineage of Genghis Khan.

    See:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0161622

    Molecular Genealogy of a Mongol Queen’s Family and Her Possible Kinship with Genghis Khan


    "Members of the Mongol imperial family (designated the Golden family) are buried in a secret necropolis; therefore, none of their burial grounds have been found. In 2004, we first discovered 5 graves belonging to the Golden family in Tavan Tolgoi, Eastern Mongolia. To define the genealogy of the 5 bodies and the kinship among them, SNP and/or STR profiles of mitochondria, autosomes, and Y chromosomes were analyzed. Four of the 5 bodies were determined to carry the mitochondrial DNA haplogroup D4, while the fifth carried haplogroup CZ, indicating that this individual had no kinship with the others. Meanwhile, Y-SNP and Y-STR profiles indicate that the males examined belonged to the R1b-M343 haplogroup. Thus, their East Asian D4 or CZ matrilineal and West Eurasian R1b-M343 patrilineal origins reveal genealogical admixture between Caucasoid and Mongoloid ethnic groups, despite a Mongoloid physical appearance. In addition, Y chromosomal and autosomal STR profiles revealed that the four D4-carrying bodies bore the relationship of either mother and three sons or four full siblings with almost the same probability. Moreover, the geographical distribution of R1b-M343-carrying modern-day individuals demonstrates that descendants of Tavan Tolgoi bodies today live mainly in Western Eurasia, with a high frequency in the territories of the past Mongol khanates. Here, we propose that Genghis Khan and his family carried Y-haplogroup R1b-M343, which is prevalent in West Eurasia, rather than the Y-haplogroup C3c-M48, which is prevalent in Asia and which is widely accepted to be present in the family members of Genghis Khan. Additionally, Tavan Tolgoi bodies may have been the product of marriages between the lineage of Genghis Khan’s Borjigin clan and the lineage of either the Ongud or Hongirad clans, indicating that these individuals were members of Genghis Khan’s immediate family or his close relatives."

    Most of what the author explains about the secrecy surrounding the grave sites, the deliberate lack of markings, raises doubts in my mind as to whether this particular grave is that of the royal family versus high status graves. Perhaps someone who knows more about the era could address that, because this isn't my area of expertise.

    Let's assume, however, for the sake of argument, that it is the grave of one of Genghis Khan's daughters, and her sons. In that case, wouldn't the yDna be that of the Ongud tribe in which the grave was found rather than that of necessity of Genghis Khan himself?

    In the body of the paper the author himself is much more nuanced in his conclusions.

    "
    Collectively, our results provide three possibilities about the high genetic affinity between Tavan Tolgoi bodies and the members of Genghis Khan’s Borjigin clan. First, Tavan Tolgoi bodies would be Golden family members from qudas between the female lineage of Borjigin clan and the male lineage of rulers who dominated Eastern Mongolia, including the Ongud Kingdom. Accordingly, R1b-M343 of Tavan Tolgoi bodies reveals the Y-haplogroup of rulers of Eastern Mongolia in the Mongolian era, not that of Genghis Khan’s Borjigin clan. Second, it is plausible that R1b-M343-carrying Tavan Tolgoi bodies are somehow related to Genghis Khan’s male lineage for a similar reason to C3c-M48 being assumed as the Y-haplogroup of Genghis Khan by Zerjal and colleagues [56]. Thus, Genghis Khan may have carried Y-haplogroup R1b-M343, which is prevalent in West Eurasia, and not haplogroup C3c-M48, which is prevalent in Asia. This is based on Genghis Khan’s physical appearance, which exhibited some features of Caucasoid ethnic groups and the geographical distribution of modern-day R1b-M343 carriers. Third, we cannot entirely exclude the possibility that R1b-M343-carrying modern-day individuals are descendants of Genghis Khan’s generals or relatives who had no genetic relationship with Genghis Khan and his Borjigin clan, but exercised considerable influence throughout the past Mongol khanates including Golden Horde, Ilkhanate, and Chagatai Khanate, as the R1b-M343-carrying modern-day individuals are distributed across the 3 Mongol khanates and are not limited to specific areas, similarly to the Hazara of Pakistan

    As to the fact that it is R1b M73, I don't think that's really all that surprising. It's certainly present, as the author says, in a lot of ethnic groups with historic relationships to the Mongols, including the Bashkirs and the Hazara. It doesn't change the fact that they were autosomally Mongols.

    When it arrived in that area is another question that really isn't addressed in the paper.
    There were rumors that even Genghis Khan had some Caucasian features. It is no suprise to find that there were Caucasians among the Mongols, I think it had been not only speculated variou times that the Golden Horde for example were made up of ; Massagetae, Cimmerian and Scythian remains on the Steppes. It is pretty much the same scenario as with the Bulgars, Khazars and Chuvash. They are pretty much local Massagetae, Alanic-Sarmatian and Scythian groups that shifted language. It seems some Altaic groups did actually "assimilated" other by females. This should change our view on the idea that all linguistic dominance came via males who raided the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    M343 is West Eurasian only in a very narrow sense - essentially if you divided the entirety of the Eurasian plate in the middle and called everything on the Western half 'West Eurasian'. It would be more sensible to say that the old M343 clades have a central Asian distribution. So the conclusion that R1b necessarily derives from Caucasoid males is bizarre.

    My first impression was that the authors intention was to make the headlines with such purposely sensationalist claims. I'm waiting for the first article stating that Genghis Khan was Irish (or Polish).
    R1b M343 is West Eurasian in genetic sense, not necessary in geographic, since Central Asia was once predomiantly West Eurian and now is very mixed.

    However the interesting part is, it is R1b M73. Yamna were R1b L23, Srubna (Proto Cimmerian?) R1a z93, Andronovo the same. Makes one wonder if M73 has really a Steppic origin and didn't actually come from the Massagetae in Central Asia, or Scythian that had formed late and could have quite diversity in Haplogroups.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Those authors have a very odd way of describing their finding. Describing R1b as Western Eurasian is misleading at best. The lineage they recovered, R1b-M73 is not western Eurasian anyway, but Central and North Asian. It is more common among Mongoloid or hybrid populations than among Caucasoid ones. How could they not know that? Or do they intentionally try to mislead the readers of their paper? Why would a team of Mongolian and Korean researchers wish to make the world believe that Genghis Khan was somehow Western Eurasian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lkhagvasuren et al.
    Moreover, the geographical distribution of R1b-M343-carrying modern-day individuals demonstrates that descendants of Tavan Tolgoi bodies today live mainly in Western Eurasia, with a high frequency in the territories of the past Mongol khanates.
    Why would they think that Western Eurasian R1b descends from Mongols? The migration happened the other way round, with R1b-M73 spreading from the Caspian to Mongolia in the Neolithic or Chalcolithic.

    Anyhow, considering the scarcity of R1b-M73 in Mongolia or Kazakhstan today I very much doubt that this was Genghis Khan's lineage.
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    MarkoZ,

    According to this article from history.com, Genghis Khan was tall, red-haired, with green eyes:

    http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/10-things-you-may-not-know-about-genghis-khan


    Most accounts describe him [Genghis Khan] as tall and strong with a flowing mane of hair and a long, bushy beard. Perhaps the most surprising description comes courtesy of the 14th century Persian chronicler Rashid al-Din, who claimed Genghis had red hair and green eyes.

    Al-Din’s account is questionable—he never met the Khan in person—but these striking features were not unheard of among the ethnically diverse Mongols.
    He was obviously mixed, with some Western Eurasian ancestry, so no surprise that he carried R1b.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What's next, they're gonna claim they found the skeleton of Jesus Christ and he was also R1b hg. Wouldn't surprise me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apsurdistan View Post
    what's next, they're gonna claim they found the skeleton of jesus christ and he was also r1b hg. Wouldn't surprise me.
    lol!!
    Jesus was a nordic warrior viking lord with a huge chest, glowing eyes and forged by Thor.

    Nordic Mongolians...right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    What's next, they're gonna claim they found the skeleton of Jesus Christ and he was also R1b hg. Wouldn't surprise me.
    can you tell me where the paper is wrong and why Mongolians, Chinese or Koreans would want Gengis Khan to be R1b?

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    R1b-M73xM478 was found in the Samara area 7.6 ka but not in later Yamna
    would they have moved east with Afanasievo and than come back with Mongols?

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    According to my genius match from NG, I share a common ancestor on my paternal-line with Genghis Khan 65,000-45,000 years ago.

    During that time, my paternal-linage were the following mutations:

    70,000 years ago CT-M168

    60,000 years ago CF-P143

    55,000 years ago F-M89

    50,000 years ago HIJK-M578

    45,000 years ago K-P128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    According to my genius match from NG, I share a common ancestor on my paternal-line with Genghis Khan 65,000-45,000 years ago.

    During that time, my paternal-linage were the following mutations:

    70,000 years ago CT-M168

    60,000 years ago CF-P143

    55,000 years ago F-M89

    50,000 years ago HIJK-M578

    45,000 years ago K-P128
    we even don't know where Gengis Khan was burried, nor anyone from his direct family

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    R originated in Baikal Region. All R lineage moved Westward from Central Asia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    . This should change our view on the idea that all linguistic dominance came via males who raided the area.
    I think the males dominance by assimilating foreign women step by step helps to keep the males conquerors language (the question of lost of steppic auDNA by IE's in some places) -
    if a small groups of males, even good warriors and politicians, assimilated a large group of females in a short time and had dense exchanges with surrounding more numerous groups of same ethny as their females, these males would loose their language quickly enough. Just an opinion.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by R1b1 View Post
    R originated in Baikal Region. All R lineage moved Westward from Central Asia.
    Not the first Y-R IMO. They rather came from "northern" South Asia, coming along the southern sides of Himalaya. After we can suppose R1 developped in Central Asia, and later different sub-lineages knowed different stories.

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