Eurogenes Basal Eurasian Question

[bicicleur 2]

I've been thinking about that too, whether IJ might have split north of the Caucasus somewhere. That, or those "I" lines went north before Basal Eurasian showed up, or the BE just got diluted to nothing through successive mating.

I haven't checked dates of those clades or anything like that; just idle musing.

Bicicleur might have a better handle on it.

my guess is that IJ split 42.9 ka in Transcaucasia
and J stayed in Georgia, Dzudzuana and Ortvale Klde caves
while I entered Europe via Mezmayskaya 39 ka

Some I would have mixed 35 ka with the Kostenki population, which gave way to the Vestonice cluster,
others would not have mixed :
- the El Miron cluster mixed later in western Europe with Goyet 35 ka like
- the Villabruna cluster stayed pretty unmixed till they meat some people from Anatolia some 15 ka

There is also C1a2 in mesolithic Anatolia.
They may be descendants of the Vestonice cluster moving south during LGM.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Haplogroups J and R appeared both in Neolithic Iran and Caucasus, and north in the Steppe and Baltic, and EHG is the shared ancestry between them, J1 didn't seem to have Basal, so is it blasphemous to say that haplogroup J is actually EHG that moved south ?

I guess those J in Karelia split from the main branch of J in Transcaucasia pretty early, some 15 ka.
J in Transcaucasia must have received Basal Eurasian a little later.
I guess they received it from incoming G from the Zagros Mountains.
GxG2a2 was observed in neolithic Zagros, we don't have mesolithic Zagros.
G might have survived LGM in the dry bed of the Persian Gulf.
G2a2 moved northwest into obsidian-rich Cappadocia as early as 17 ka, when it split further into G2a2a and G2a2b.
As early as 16 ka obsidian from Cappadocia arrived in the Upper Eurphrate and the Levant, just south of Lebanon.
But I think already before, the Natufians had received Basal Eurasian from incoming H2.
Natufian E1b1b1 originaly didn't have Basal Eurasian, they were African, Mota 4.5 ka like.

 

[IronSide]

@bicicleur

but autosomally Natufians didn't have African. or did they ?

 

[bicicleur 2]

@bicicleur
but autosomally Natufians didn't have African. or did they ?

I don't know
and then there is North African and SSA

didn't the 7 ka northern Morroccan DNA share DNA with Natufians? they were half Natufian and half western Africa?

 

[Angela]

I don't know
and then there is North African and SSA

didn't the 7 ka northern Morroccan DNA share DNA with Natufians? they were half Natufian and half western Africa?

I think we posted the provisional answer upthread from Lazaridis in "The Genetic Structure of the World's First Farmers":

"However, no190 affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans is evident in our genome-wide analysis, as191 present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other192 ancient Eurasians (Extended Data Table 1). (We could not test for a link to present-day NorthAfricans, who owe most of their ancestry to back-migration from Eurasia27,28 193 .)"

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/06/16/059311.full.pdf

 

[IronSide]

I think we posted the provisional answer upthread from Lazaridis in "The Genetic Structure of the World's First Farmers":

"However, no190 affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans is evident in our genome-wide analysis, as191 present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other192 ancient Eurasians (Extended Data Table 1). (We could not test for a link to present-day NorthAfricans, who owe most of their ancestry to back-migration from Eurasia27,28 193 .)"

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/06/16/059311.full.pdf

Yes, they didn't have sub-Saharan admixture. I don't know why some Gedmatch calculators return results like this one Gedrosia K3

kit M041601 (Natufian)

Population
E_Eurasian	-
SSA	10.80
W_Eurasian	89.20

Well, Natufians did have higher basal than modern Middle Easterners, so the excess of that was assigned to SSA ? or that all of them are just terrible.

 

[Promenade]

Could SSA showing up in Natufians have something to do with Natufian Ancestry in East Africa? Luxmanda derived well over a third of her ancestry from the Neolithic Levant with no CHG or EEF contribution.

It's suggested that either there was a migration from the Levant to east Africa or that Luxmanda and PPN-Levantine farmers shared a common ancestor. Hunter Gatherers from Ethiopia just 1,400 years before Luxmanda lack any west Eurasian ancestry which points to a migration, but a pure stream of Natufian ancestry entering east Africa some time after 2,500bc needs some explaining.

 

[Angela]

Yes, they didn't have sub-Saharan admixture. I don't know why some Gedmatch calculators return results like this one Gedrosia K3

kit M041601 (Natufian)

Population
E_Eurasian	-
SSA	10.80
W_Eurasian	89.20

Well, Natufians did have higher basal than modern Middle Easterners, so the excess of that was assigned to SSA ? or that all of them are just terrible.

I think I might go with door number 2. It's just never going to be that accurate to use programs based on modern populations to analyze ancient ones. It may give you a rough idea, but small percents of one thing or another may be off.

Seriously, as I pointed out above, in the original analyses of the SHG they came out with a chunk of African.