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Thread: Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

  1. #26
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The only way to find out how a particular Y-DNA should look like is to find the very first and archaic Y-DNA haplogroup. Otherwise it is nothing but speculation and pseudo science ..


    Nobody knows how the very first R1a or R1b fella looked like 20000 !!! years ago.


    But all we know is that modern humans are much more evolved and refined than 20000 years ago. It has something to do with what we call time, environmental adaptation and attainable nutrition ( = evolution ) .

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    The very first born archaic R1b or R1a fella could look like a very, very dark African.


    But today what we do know for sure is that a current average looking R1b fella (I know there is R1b in native African & West/East Asian populations, but I'm talking about the general average global population), and that average looking R1b fella has 'Europoid' (native European) looks, most R1b fellas have European roots. While an average looking R1a fella is South Asian, most present day living R1a fellas have South Asian roots.


    The rest is pseudo science...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The only way to find out how a particular Y-DNA should look like is to find the very first and archaic Y-DNA haplogroup. Otherwise it is nothing but speculation and pseudo science ..


    Nobody knows how the very first R1a or R1b fella looked like 20000 !!! years ago.


    But all we know is that modern humans are much more evolved and refined than 20000 years ago. It has something to do with what we call time, environmental adaptation and attainable nutrition ( = evolution ) .
    Once again you completely misunderstand the purpose of this thread. What you mean is to find out the autosomal genes for one particular phenotype (the ancient R1a ancestors) and match it with a Y-chromosomal DNA. But what I am trying to do is almost the opposite. I am trying to dissociate completely autosomal DNA from Y-DNA, and see what phenotypically relevant influence is left using only the Y-DNA. The best way to test this would be to genetically engineer quasi-clones that differ only in their Y-DNA, and see how different they look. Chances are that they will be very similar, but will have a distinctively different 'feel'. Using language as an analogy, you could say that those clones who all speak English (the autosomal DNA) but with a different accent (the Y-DNA).

    Now when I wrote that, based on my personal impression of people I know, R1a men were more earnest and straightforward (or even aggressive), you are a good example. :) But I also had other specific people in mind. It is now known that Benjamin Netanyahu belongs to R1a-Z93. Not only does he fit the description for his character, but his earnest character is also reflected on his face. That is no easy-going, boyish J2a man.




    Many Jews had their DNA tested, and as Jews have so many different Y-haplogroups, they make a great 'test case' for the phenotypical expression of Y-DNA. Jews are fairly homogeneous genetically, being a single ethnic group that refrained (as much as possible) to intermarry with outsiders for over 3000 years. There are obvious differences between Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews, but they tend to be genetically close within each group (esp. Ashkenazi). So do J2 Jews look different from R1a Jews, J1 Jews, R1b Jews, Q1b Jews or G2 Jews? I believe it may be possible for an experienced observer (which would require a lot more practice, in my case) to guess the haplogroup based on the particular 'aura' or character associated with a specific haplogroup.

    For example, most Levite Jews supposedly belong to Y-haplogroup R1a, while many Cohens are either J1 or J2. French philosopher Bernard Henri Levy (pictured below) is a Levite and therefore should fit my R1a image of the earnest man, which he very much is.





    Benjamin Netanyahu and Bernard Henri Levy do not look similar at all in terms of autosomal DNA, but they have the same earnest 'atmosphere'. It may just be a coincidence, but that's what I found among the R1a people I know (celebrities + Facebook + friends). It also just happened to be that countries with high percentages of R1a tend to be more earnest and straightforward. That is as true for Scandinavians and Germans as for northern Slavs, Iranians or Pakistanis. Its harder to say for Indians as R1a is found mostly among the higher caste Hindus and vary a lot by region. But just compare outspoken and rather aggressive Pakistani with the much milder and more reserved Bangladeshi. They are a world apart despite sharing a similar culture.



    In contrast, I don't know what David Schwimmer's haplogroup is, but I would say J2a based on the type I described at the beginning of this thread. He clearly doesn't have that R1a look.




    And it's not just because of the difference of age. Dustin Hoffman doesn't have the R1a look either. I'd say also J2a too.



    The gentle, boyish charm of J2a men is more obvious when he was younger, but still shows with age.





    Just to give an example of a non-Jewish actor who has the J2a looks (this is American actor John Larroquette, of French descent)

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b U152 L2 L20
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This has be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on these forums. Y DNA Haplogroups making people act a certain way. What the hell? Am I missing something here? Are we still talking in reality? Where am I? If the OP wasn't who he is I would say more. But because of who he is Ill play nice.
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Apophenia, Confirmation bias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Maciamo, since when are you into PSEUDO science? This is one of the very few times that you disappoint me...
    Actually he half right. I have little knowledge in genetics but everyday life proves some of his assumptions. For instance if two painters get married its very likely their child will inherit some painting traits. If two non singers marry the likelihood their child becoming a singer is remote. The genetic law of inheritance gives his assumption scientific argument. But we know that major y haplogroups have evolved also so putting all R1a folks under the same umbrella in terms of their mental characteristics is exaggeration. But he is right in terms of physical appearance.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Actually he half right.
    He is not even 0.001% right. Look, if he talked about the 'genes' and the inheritability of those genes, then I would agree with him. I do believe that races can pass on and lose some genes. If your parents are smart, the chance is bigger that you're also smart. But he is not talking about the genes, but about the Y-DNA haplogroups. I mean, WHAT ??!!


    What if I would recognize myself outside my own haplogroup and lean more toward that different haplogroup , would I be a some kind of trans-haplogrouper???


    People can identify themselves as an ethnic group (race), by gender (man/female) and sexuality (homo/hetero), but it is really stupid to link Y-DNA haplogorups to facial characteristics or human nature/personality. Facial characteristics have to do with your race and human nature/personality has something to do with education, by whom you are raised and the human SOUL...

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    He is not even 0.001% right. Look, if he talked about the 'genes' and the inheritability of those genes, then I would agree with him. I do believe that races can pass on and lose some genes. If your parents are smart, the chance is bigger that you' re also smart. But he is not talking about the genes, but about the Y-DNA haplogroups. I mean, WHAT ??!!


    What if I would recognize myself outside my own haplogroup and lean toward that different haplogroup , would I be a some kind of trans-haplogrouper???


    People can identify themselves as an ethnic group (race), gender (man/female) and sexuality (homo/hetero), but it is really stupid to link Y-DNA haplogorups to facial characteristics or human nature/personality. Facial characteristics has to do with your race and human nature/personality has something to do with education, by whom you are raised and the human SOUL...
    Finally some sanity in this thread.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    He is not even 0.001% right. Look, if he talked about the 'genes' and the inheritability of those genes, then I would agree with him. I do believe that races can pass on and lose some genes. If your parents are smart, the chance is bigger that you're also smart. But he is not talking about the genes, but about the Y-DNA haplogroups. I mean, WHAT ??!!
    FYI, there are over 200 genes on the Y chromosome (against 2000 for the X chromosome), i.e. about 1% of all our genes. Did you think it had no function at all? It's a chromosome like any other. The Y chromosome may be small, but it is larger than chromosomes 21 and 22 and the same size as chromosome 20. Anyway, I think that the difference between male lions, ligers, tigons and tigers convincingly shows that the Y-chromosome does influence looks. The male liger (lion Y-DNA, tiger X-DNA) has the lion's regal look and stern expression that the male tigon (tiger Y-DNA, lion X-DNA) or tiger do not have. Of course some traits like body size are very likely to be either on the X chromosomes or on imprinted autosomal genes, as they affect both genders equally. If you can't understand what I am talking about, perhaps you should refrain from posting in such discussions and read a bit more about genetics.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    This has be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on these forums. Y DNA Haplogroups making people act a certain way. What the hell? Am I missing something here? Are we still talking in reality? Where am I? If the OP wasn't who he is I would say more. But because of who he is Ill play nice.
    Why is it ridiculous to compare the looks of known carriers of certain haplogroups across racial groups? Read again, I am not guessing the haplogroup of the four individuals tested in the OP. These were all tested and are all confirmed J2a members. I also posted two confirmed R1a members (von Sydow and Netanyahu) and a very likely R1a based on the surname (Levy).

    Do you also believe like Goga that the Y-chromsome has no function whatsoever. 59 million useless base pairs? It takes only a handful of mutations to get blue eyes (in the genes OCA2 and HERC, both on Chr. 15). Why would thousands of mutations selected by evolution over tens of thousands of years have no impact on behaviour or looks? Why do you think that the Y-chromosome does not affect males attractiveness, male dominance, or other male attributes? I suppose you don't believe in evolution and natural selection either?

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    I’m guessing this another of those fantasy theories circulating.

    It was suggested before that R1b men introduced social hierarchy to wherever they went, unitl FACTS disproved otherwise – the discovery of a cemetery in Varna containing individuals characterized with different materials, suggesting that there were already hierarchy societies in Europe before the coming of R1b males.

    Secondly, this theory, if it is one, is entirely based on ones’s ‘feel’. This ‘feel’ or ‘aura’ is entirely subjective, and therefore different to each person’s perception. Since it’s lacking any objectivity, it’s impossible to be generaly applied.

    I also expected more from the forum’s administrator, and until facts prove otherwise, I’m restricting haplogroups’ purposes merely to ancestry and migration.

    (Not to say that the exemples provided for J2 men were all of the same nationality…)

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    They do look like Y-DNA hg. I1 !!!
    And are you talking about Europe, right? Because most R1a men, and I mean more than 1 billion, look like him or something...

    This is now an AVERAGE modern day R1a fella looks like!
    I think that every man has more haplogrups in genetic informations, not only one. One haplogrup is in most % occurrence. It is reason for various appearance for people with the same haplogrup.

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    I always thought Netanyahu looked somewhere between Spaniard and Middle Eastern. I would have thought R1b or J2. The R1a-Z93 is a surprise...

    You will notice though, the South Asian skull shape and features are similar to a European on many levels with the exception of the dark skin. That is probably why South Asians and Europeans were thought to be of the same racial type by those early anthropologists.


    Were there any famous R1b men on the show this season?

    The original J2 look.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan
    http://arthistoryworlds.org/sculpture-from-sumer/

    A very handsome variation of what ancient Celtic men probably looked like in modern form. Notice substantial EEF ancestry picked up in Central and SW Europe in traditional Celtic territory. (perhaps from mtDNA H women)
    https://wallpaperscraft.com/tag/kit%20harington

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    Occurrence of haplogrup R1a in India, is result of Aryans emigration to India.
    It support theory of Cyril Hromnik (Slovakian scientist historian and linguistic expert): conection between India and ancestors of Slavs in Europa.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post489282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I always thought Netanyahu looked somewhere between Spaniard and Middle Eastern. I would have thought R1b or J2. The R1a-Z93 is a surprise...
    Jews are not Semites. Semites have dark skin and black hair. Jews are Khazars. Khazars are Germanic nation. Language of Khazars is germanic Yiddish language.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashken...zar_hypothesis
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar...enazi_ancestry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloven-Vened View Post
    Jews are not Semites. Semites have dark skin and black hair. Jews are Khazars. Khazars are Germanic nation. Language of Khazars is germanic Yiddish language.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashken...zar_hypothesis
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar...enazi_ancestry

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    I see the opposite of what you described. Men with Haplogroup IJ seem to have longer, more prominent facial features. Have you seen the noses of the stereotypical inhabitant of any country with a high frequency of I or J? I would associate Haplogroup R with youthful features. In reality though I highly doubt this has anything to do with haplogroups. I do still see a connection with above-average height and Haplogroup I.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It may not have any scientific basis, but I have also always visualized these silly physical and mental stereotypes for people of different haplogroups

    R1b: smallish body frame, a bit hairy, usually dark haired, quick witted, creative, restless, shows emotions
    R1a: blonde hair, pale skin, cold eyes, cold personality, never flinches from a fight
    I1, I2: very tall, big boned, big nosed, vigorous, resilient, dutiful, unimaginative, a bit boring
    J2, G2a: wavy hair, very dense beard, short or average height, easy going, enjoys life
    E1b1b: squat, sly, hot temper

    I probably just base these ideas off observations of nationalities/ethnicities where haplogroups X, Y or Z have a high incidence

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    The Tigon/Liger example is interesting. I wonder if a similar thing happens when races mixes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Degredado View Post
    It may not have any scientific basis, but I have also always visualized these silly physical and mental stereotypes for people of different haplogroups

    R1b: smallish body frame, a bit hairy, usually dark haired, quick witted, creative, restless, shows emotions
    R1a: blonde hair, pale skin, cold eyes, cold personality, never flinches from a fight
    I1, I2: very tall, big boned, big nosed, vigorous, resilient, dutiful, unimaginative, a bit boring
    J2, G2a: wavy hair, very dense beard, short or average height, easy going, enjoys life
    E1b1b: squat, sly, hot temper

    I probably just base these ideas off observations of nationalities/ethnicities where haplogroups X, Y or Z have a high incidence
    You are describing your image of people in countries with high percentage of a particular haplogroup. This is not at all what I had in mind. You should first consider what the Y-chromosome can influence. It is linked to male sexual traits that develop at puberty. Therefore it is not going to affect skin colour, hair curliness, or the like. It could play a role in how quickly blond hair darkens, as it has been proven that women stay blond longer and that the testosterone surge at puberty quickly darkens the hair of blond children, but oddly enough not equally in all men. One hypothesis is that some haplogroups (like I1 or N1c) have a less darkening effect and these haplogroups were positively selected by natural selection in northern Europe to increase UV ray absorption and vitamin D production.

    I also considered the possibility that Y-DNA could affect the way a man's jaw develop. I am not the only one who has observed that people belonging to some haplogroups, such as I1, J1 and J2, tend to have longer faces. But obviously autosomal genes are the prime determinant, as women can also have short or long faces. It just seems to be more pronounced in some men, so Y-DNA could just amplify the role of autosomal genes in that regard.

    Body height is one of the most complex genetic traits, determined by dozens of autosomal genes. Some Y-DNA may also amplify it, but I doubt it is substantial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But obviously autosomal genes are the prime determinant, as women can also have short or long faces.
    I agree with this sentence. If Ydna Haplogroups determine certain behaviours/looks, what would determine them in women?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by João Soares View Post
    I agree with this sentence. If Ydna Haplogroups determine certain behaviours/looks, what would determine them in women?
    I think that Y-DNA can amplify some autosomal traits. Both men and women have hair and muscles, so it's obvious that these things are coded in autosomal DNA. Yet men are hairier and more muscular, especially from puberty when the Y chromosome becomes truly active. It's not just the effect of testosterone, as women who get testosterone injections, even if they become extreme body builders, will never have the same body shape as men, including wide shoulders, stronger jaws and nose and other different facial features. Likewise I have never heard or women getting body hair everywhere like men after using testosterone for years. Once again, not all men develop body hair at the same place. Some only have hair on the arms and legs, while others have hairy chests and even backs. The beard line varies a lot between individuals as well, but, like with receding hairlines, it probably has more to do with androgen receptors on the X chromosome.

    Ultimately, because the X and Y chromosomes evolved together and in competition with one another (with genes occasionally shifting from one to the other), I think that a lot of sexual features depend on the fine interactions between the gene set on both the X and Y chromosome. Consequently, changing genes on the X chromosome will alter masculine traits just as much (if not more) than substituting one Y chromosome for another. It's very complex. That's why the best way to confirm the exact phenotypic effect of the Y chromosome alone would be to create near clones that have only different Y chromosomes. We can't do that in humans for ethical reasons, but nothing prevent us to try on other animals. Dogs, who have facial features that humans are especially familiar with, would seem like good candidates. I wonder if canine Y-DNA varies with breeds, or if they all have mixed Y-DNA? What would happen if we replaced a dog's Y-DNA by a that of wolf or a fox or a jackal ? Would they look and behave differently? Probably since male liger and male tigon are very different despite being each half-lion and half-tiger. Only their X and Y chromosomes differ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I think that Y-DNA can amplify some autosomal traits. Both men and women have hair and muscles, so it's obvious that these things are coded in autosomal DNA. Yet men are hairier and more muscular, especially from puberty when the Y chromosome becomes truly active. It's not just the effect of testosterone, as women who get testosterone injections, even if they become extreme body builders, will never have the same body shape as men, including wide shoulders, stronger jaws and nose and other different facial features. Likewise I have never heard or women getting body hair everywhere like men after using testosterone for years. Once again, not all men develop body hair at the same place. Some only have hair on the arms and legs, while others have hairy chests and even backs. The beard line varies a lot between individuals as well, but, like with receding hairlines, it probably has more to do with androgen receptors on the X chromosome.

    Ultimately, because the X and Y chromosomes evolved together and in competition with one another (with genes occasionally shifting from one to the other), I think that a lot of sexual features depend on the fine interactions between the gene set on both the X and Y chromosome. Consequently, changing genes on the X chromosome will alter masculine traits just as much (if not more) than substituting one Y chromosome for another. It's very complex. That's why the best way to confirm the exact phenotypic effect of the Y chromosome alone would be to create near clones that have only different Y chromosomes. We can't do that in humans for ethical reasons, but nothing prevent us to try on other animals. Dogs, who have facial features that humans are especially familiar with, would seem like good candidates. I wonder if canine Y-DNA varies with breeds, or if they all have mixed Y-DNA? What would happen if we replaced a dog's Y-DNA by a that of wolf or a fox or a jackal ? Would they look and behave differently? Probably since male liger and male tigon are very different despite being each half-lion and half-tiger. Only their X and Y chromosomes differ.
    Here's a thought: Take 2 Haplogroups: F and E, 45 000 years BP. Since there were no subclades of these two, there were no E1b1b, I, J, R1a, R1b, etc. Would this mean that every men carying haplogroup F would have the same behaviour and looks, in comparison with men carying haplogroup E, and every men carying haplogroup E would have the same behaviour and looks in comparison with men carying haplogroup F? The diversification would have been close to none, both in behaviour and looks, because, according to this theory, there would be no trait amplifications provided by E1b1b, I, J, R1b, etc. and all the men would have been absolutely (or almost absolutely) the same.
    But the Y chromosome did mutate in time, and I think the main question here is – why? Environment? The intrinsic nature of the self (?!) . Is there any men alive carying haplogroup F - without any subclades? Does that man have a personality? Or is he the most average person on the planet?(I must say, however, that I'm no expert on genetics)

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    Well, R1a, I1, I2 whatever, those are all arbitrary things.
    Why split at level R1a/R1b? Perhaps we should look higher at R1 or go deeper into R1a subclades.
    Then we should also look at similarities of level NO, P, IJ, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Well, R1a, I1, I2 whatever, those are all arbitrary things.
    Why split at level R1a/R1b? Perhaps we should look higher at R1 or go deeper into R1a subclades.
    Then we should also look at similarities of level NO, P, IJ, etc.
    Actually the defining mutations of major haplogroups are not all that arbitrary. Most top level haplogroups suffered major bottlenecks during the Last Glacial Maximum. If you look at the phylogenetic tree (either on Yfull.com or Isogg.org), you will see that haplogroups are defined by a lot of mutations, often over 100, while subclades have just a few or even just one. For example (the mutation in brackets is just one of the defining mutations, usually the first identified or the most well known):

    E1b1b (M125) : 148 defining mutations
    - E1b1b1a (M78) :: 77 defining mutations
    G : over 300 defining mutations
    -G2a (P15) : 50 defining mutations
    I1 : 301 defining mutations
    I2 : 64 defining mutations
    -I2a1 (M436) 55 defining mutations
    -I2a2 (P37) : 28 defining mutations
    J1 : 185 defining mutations
    J2 : 30 defining mutations
    -J2a (M410) : 117 defining mutations
    R1a : 102 defining mutations
    R1b (M343) : 28 defining mutations
    -R1b-V88 : 75 defining mutations
    -R1b-P297 : 33 defining mutations
    --R1b-M269 : 100 defining mutations

    These are of course cumulative and I skipped some intermediary subclades.

    Additionally, as I mentioned before, some haplogroups carry mutations in the coding section of important genes, and therefore are much more likely to cause visible changes in looks or behaviour. This is the case for haplogroups BT, DE, E*, J*, R*, R1a1, R1b-SRY2627, R1b-M222, and T*. I don't think it is a coincidence that these mutations happen to fall right in the node of major historical expansion and define top level haplogroups or very major subclades (R1a1, which means nearly 100% of all R1a people alive today). Even R1b-M222, which is a very young subclade (TMRCA 1900 years before present) now makes up a very considering part of paternal lineages in the British Isles and in the English-speaking world. What exactly is the evolutionary advantage of M222 men, I don't know, but there seems to be one, otherwise this subclade among dozens of L21 subclades would not have become so successful.

    The number of mutations between R1b1b (P297) and R1b1b2 (M269) is absolutely stunning. Only about 3500 years elapsed between the two, but M269 acquired 100 new mutations, about 10 per generation ! I cannot think of any other haplogroup that developed such large number of mutations in such a short time. Now is it a coincidence that that very lineage suddenly expanded from a minor Caucasian or Steppe cow herder lineage to a world dominant lineage found on all continents in just a few thousands years? I don't think so. Some of these mutations must have had an effect on the behaviour of these R1b men. We are talking about 100 mutations here, three times more than Paleolithic I* got to become I2a2 over 20,000 years later ! That's not a minor change.

    The Y chromosome is the fastest evolving chromosome. Despite the fact that we share 98% of our genome with chimpanzees, our Y chromosomes have already become 30% different. It has been suggested that this is because of the competitive nature of reproduction and that the most advantageous Y chromosomes get selected. However if reproductive fitness was the only role of Y-DNA, we should expect little change over time. If the machinery works properly, why change it? Mutations are actually more likely to damage a fertility tried and tested over millions of years. Surely Y-DNA has other evolutionary implications. One of the biggest differences between the chimpanzees, the gorillas and humans is their respective sexual behaviours. Chimps are extremely promiscuous and use sex as a entertainment and as a bargaining tool, while gorillas are very faithful but live in harems around a dominant male. Humans are somewhere in between, but human behaviour also varies considerably by region and by historical culture. Did Y-DNA influence male behaviour before religions, cultures and laws started regulating sexual behaviour? I think it's an idea worth exploring.

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