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Thread: Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Only about 3500 years elapsed between the two, but M269 acquired 100 new mutations, about 10 per generation !
    Are you sure math adds up?
    100 mutations per 3,500 years, that would be 1 mutation per 35 years. 10 per generation would make generation 350 years long?

    And I still stick to it being arbitrary.
    R1b - M269 has 100 mutations as per you
    R1b - only 28. Why are we looking for commonalities at R1b/R1a level, when in fact, R1b - M269 is 100 mutations different from R1b?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Are you sure math adds up?
    100 mutations per 3,500 years, that would be 1 mutation per 35 years. 10 per generation would make generation 350 years long?
    Sorry, of course it is 1 per generation.

    And I still stick to it being arbitrary.
    R1b - M269 has 100 mutations as per you
    R1b - only 28. Why are we looking for commonalities at R1b/R1a level, when in fact, R1b - M269 is 100 mutations different from R1b?
    When I am referring to haplogroup R1b, I always mean modern subclades of R1b unless otherwise specified. For Europeans that is almost always subclades downstream of R1b-M269. Anyway, if you understood anything about what I intended to say about cumulative mutations you wouldn't be asking such questions. You can spend your time counting all the mutations from R1b* to say R1b-M222, or a deep clade under R1b-U106 like L180, to get an idea of the hundreds of mutations that distinguish an R1b* man from 20,000 years ago to a modern R1b person. I don't have any time to waste on this. Anyway, not all mutations are equal, and a mutation in the coding section of a gene carries far more evolutionary weight than any other random mutation. Do you sincerely believe that it is a coincidence that such important mutations came to define the three most successful male lineages in human history: namely haplogroups E (covering most of Africa), J (from the Mediterranean to South Asia), and R (present at high frequencies in most of western Eurasia and South Asia)? Other haplogroups didn't get these super-mutations and they all waned as a result.

    If we only considering super-mutations in the coding section of Y-chromosomal genes to define haplogroups, there would only be these haplogroups.

    A
    - BT (including haplogroups C, DxD2, F, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, OxO2b, P, Q, S)
    -- DE
    --- D2
    --- E* (including E1a, E1b1a, E1b1b, etc.)
    -- J* (including J1 and J2)
    -- O2b
    -- R*
    --- R1a1
    --- R1b-SRY2627
    --- R1b-M222
    -- T*

    Note that these supermutations are extremely rare events. Out of the billions of men who were born in the course history, each with a few mutations on their Y chromosome, only these few were positive enough to be selected and spread. The mutations for D2 and J are identical (12f2.1), so they must be doing something right. Oddly, the R1a1 SRY mutation is a back mutation from haplogroup BT, so R1a1 men are like those of haplogroup A but with the supermutation of R*.

    It's interesting that the two main Y-DNA lineages among the Japanese happen to be D2 (40%) and O2b (31%), although nine other top level Y-haplogroups are present in the country. Why is it exactly those carrying super-mutations that came to replace all others? It's not because the most recent invader replaced older lineages. Japan was only invaded once, by the Yayoi people from Korea/China from 500 BCE. Yet D2 is descended from the aboriginal Mesolithic inhabitants (alongside C1 and D1), while O2b came with the Yayoi (alongside C3, NO, N, O1, O2a, O3 and Q). Not a coincidence. Evolution at work.

    Here is another one. Ireland and western Scotland have about 80% of R1b. With Norheast Spain (Basque country and Catalonia), this is the highest percentage of R1b in Europe. What are the most common deep clades in each region (under L21 and DF27 respectively) ? R1b-M222 in Ireland and western Scotland, and R1b-SRY2627 in Catalonia. Another coincidence? Even though L21 and DF27 have dozens of branches, M222 managed to seize up 28% of Irish lineages (35% of all R1b and 40% of R1b-L21) and SRY2627 25% of Catalan ones (38% of all R1b). I'd bet that their frequency has been gradually increasing over time.
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    So, N and Q is not on the list.
    Q spread over both Americas, N replaced half of supermutated R1a in Baltics...

    Chinese are O3 right? Also doomed to vane?

    Or belonging to BT or even A is enough? :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    So, N and Q is not on the list.
    Q spread over both Americas, N replaced half of supermutated R1a in Baltics...

    Chinese are O3 right? Also doomed to vane?

    Or belonging to BT or even A is enough? :)

    Haplogroup Q colonised an uninhabited continent. What's your point? No competition there.

    N1c is older than R1a. It started in the Manchurian Neolithic (see Yinqiu Cui et al. (2013)) and reached Northeast European with the Comb Ceramic culture from 4200 BCE, long before the Corded Ware culture. It's R1a1a that replaced N1c, not the other way round (although there were surely R1b* and R1a* in Northeast Europe, in addition to other lineages like I and Q1a, before the Comb Ceramic, as attested by the Karelian Mesolithic genomes).

    O2b is found essentially in Japan and Korea, where it started replacing the other C3, N1 and O3 lineages that were predominant in North Chinese Neolithic cultures tested so far. O3 makes up nearly 60% of Han Chinese lineages and often much more (up to 100%) in other ethnic groups from China. Three deep clades of haplogroup O (O2a1c1a-F11, O2a2b1a2a1-F46, O3a2c1a-M117 in the ISOGG 2016 nomenclature) were recognised by Shi Yan et al. (2014) as being markers of the Chinese Neolithic expansion, and these three subclades account for 40% of modern Han lineages. If O2b had originated in China, the Chinese genetic landscape might be very different now.

    Then don't misunderstand me, the evolutionary advantage might simply be a higher fertility or slightly higher ratio of boys to girls. The Chinese have a long tradition of killing baby girls as boys are seen as more useful among the peasants (and less costly as they don't need a dowry). That kind of tradition of courses messes with the natural selection of Y chromosomes.

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    I specifically mentioned Baltic N (M2783) which has tmrca of 600 bce, expanded to 40% in Balts way after Comb Ceramic or CW.

    Also I am ready to bet there were expansion of I1 or I2 subclades too. Anyway I would be surprised if say at 0 AD, there were Significant higher proportion of I1 or I2 vs R1s than today. would be curious to see stats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I specifically mentioned Baltic N (M2783) which has tmrca of 600 bce, expanded to 40% in Balts way after Comb Ceramic or CW.

    Also I am ready to bet there were expansion of I1 or I2 subclades too. Anyway I would be surprised if say at 0 AD, there were Significant higher proportion of I1 or I2 vs R1s than today. would be curious to see stats.
    Obviously good genes or advantageous mutations are not the whole story. N1c1 could have been spread in the Baltic through royal or noble lineages, like the Gediminid dynasty and its offshoots.

    I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the Y-DNA replacements among the Iron Age or medieval Finns or Saami as they had tiny populations or only a few thousands members each. It is easy for a "politically" dominant male lineage (think local chieftain or owner of a herd of reindeer) to spread his Y-DNA quickly in such tiny populations. Then when populations quickly grow to reach a few millions thanks to the industrial revolution (as was the case in Finland), we end up with the last dominant tribal Y-DNA covering a big part of a country's population. That is a very special case that defies 'normal' historical developments in more populous regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Obviously good genes or advantageous mutations are not the whole story. N1c1 could have been spread in the Baltic through royal or noble lineages, like the Gediminid dynasty and its offshoots.

    I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the Y-DNA replacements among the Iron Age or medieval Finns or Saami as they had tiny populations or only a few thousands members each. It is easy for a "politically" dominant male lineage (think local chieftain or owner of a herd of reindeer) to spread his Y-DNA quickly in such tiny populations. Then when populations quickly grow to reach a few millions thanks to the industrial revolution (as was the case in Finland), we end up with the last dominant tribal Y-DNA covering a big part of a country's population. That is a very special case that defies 'normal' historical developments in more populous regions.
    But were not R1a and R1b lines spread by politically dominant male lineages of bronze age (and later by politically dominant local grand...grand..sons of earlier politically dominant fathers)? Would R* descendants be so populous today, if not for Yamna?
    I actually have nothing against idea of for example, some mutations having more boys than girls or some mutations being less or more fertile or perhaps aggressive.
    Just don't think there is enough data to support it, we would need to find an example of isolated, socialist community with 50/50 say R1a and I2a and give it time to see if R1a becomes dominant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    But were not R1a and R1b lines spread by politically dominant male lineages of bronze age (and later by politically dominant local grand...grand..sons of earlier politically dominant fathers)? Would R* descendants be so populous today, if not for Yamna?
    I actually have nothing against idea of for example, some mutations having more boys than girls or some mutations being less or more fertile or perhaps aggressive.
    Just don't think there is enough data to support it, we would need to find an example of isolated, socialist community with 50/50 say R1a and I2a and give it time to see if R1a becomes dominant.
    To some extent yes. But R1b-V88 spread to many parts of Africa (Sahel region especially) long before the Indo-Europeans and without conquering armies. And it achieved it in competition with other haplogroups with supermutations, like E, J and T. Not bad.

    R1b subclades kept spreading around western Europe long after the Bronze Age. Just look at the Basques. The most recent common ancestor of the Basque R1b-M153 only lived 2500 years ago, and most Basques belong to newer subclades further down. Besides, the Basques retained their ancestral non-IE language. This means that R1b-M153 spread naturally and gradually, without conquest or political constraint.

    Only in regions where there was a lot of competition from other haplogroups with supermutations, like in the Balkans and the Middle East with all its E1b1b, J1, J2 and T1a, did R1a and R1b have a harder time to become dominant, despite the numerous military conquests and millennia or political dominance of Indo-European civilisations in the region (Hittites, Luwians, Lydians, Lycians, Armenians, Mitani, Medes, Persians, Achaemenids, Parthians).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    R1b subclades kept spreading around western Europe long after the Bronze Age. Just look at the Basques. The most recent common ancestor of the Basque R1b-M153 only lived 2500 years ago, and most Basques belong to newer subclades further down. Besides, the Basques retained their ancestral non-IE language. This means that R1b-M153 spread naturally and gradually, without conquest or political constraint.
    Not sure how is this different from Balts and N-M2783 vs supermutated R1a. Same age, same retain of ancestral (this time IE) language. Without conquest. Not even a single loanword from Finnish that would mean King, rule, chief, etc, etc. Without conquest or political constraint.
    Although I suspect some smiths (transition to iron working perhaps?) doing their work in both Basques and Balts. At least in Balts.

    Did not V88 spread with cattle? That would explain its popularity better than supermutation.

    How I2 could spread so well in Balkans having a lot of competition from other haplogroups with supermutations? Is not I2 the main haplo of Balkans?

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    Yes like one R1b from Camerun and one from Ireland.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I have reflected over the comments posted in this thread. It is extremely important to understand that when I say that Y-DNA could influence one's physical appearance:

    1) It is a very minor influence that has mostly to do with how a boy turns into a man at puberty. Autosomal DNA is still the most important for overall appearance.

    2) Differences in looks between Y-DNA haplogroups should be greater between very different haplogroups (number of different SNPs), and especially if mutations occur in coding genes. Actually there may not be much difference between subclades of a same haplogroup, or even between haplogroups such as I1 and I2, if there is no change in the coding region.

    3) If Y-DNA produces visible physical changes at puberty, these will be most obvious between members of a same ethnic group than between ethnic groups. For example, it may be possible to guess which Jewish man belongs to J2, as opposed to R1a, but it may not be possible to use these same clues for other ethnic groups because of the big differences in autosomal DNA that interfere with overall appearance. So there is no way that a Chinese N1c will look anywhere close to a Europe N1c ! I can't believe I have to explain that, but reading the comments I really feel like I have to explain every thing, even the obvious. A Chinese N1c might look a bit different from a Chinese C3 or O3. A Finnish N1c might be distinguishable from a Finnish I1 or R1a. But never will the Finnish N1c look like anything like a Chinese N1c ! And even within a certain ethnic group, the physical differences attributable to Y-DNA may not be discernible by people who aren't used to carefully analyse and compare facial features.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The general consensus has been that Y-chromosomal DNA only contains a few of genes relating to male fertility and does not influence the carrier's appearance, except of course for the male characteristics influenced by testosterone. I have argued before that some Y-chromosomal mutations, in the coding region, certainly play a role in male behaviour and sexual selection, considering that such mutations typically define major haplogroups or subclades. The more I compare the looks of people whose Y-DNA haplogroup I know, the more I feel like people belonging to the same haplogroup do often (but it's not always that clear) share some common looks.

    I just learned today that Ben Affleck belongs to J2a1-M319, a subclade found mainly Greece and Italy, but especially in Crete. It could have been spread by the Romans to western Europe. Ben Affleck has mixed Scottish, English, Irish, German, and Swiss ancestry. Regardless of his ancestry, there is something that looks quite J2 about him.




    Here are some other known J2 people. I would say that they all share a certain relatively gentle boyish look and have a face that is rather oval. These three are all Jewish, but they are very different in type from say Woody Allen or Albert Einstein.

    Mike Nichols




    Burt Bacharach




    Matt Lauer







    Another example is Swedish actor Max von Sydow, who I recently learned belongs to a Pomeranian subclade of R1a. There is only about 19% of R1a in Sweden, yet his looks screams R1a. He know a Polish guy who looks just like him.




    Von Sydow has German ancestry, although that does not justify his Polish looks. Let's take two pure Swedish actors, Stellen Skarsgård and his son Gustaf. I do not know their haplogroups, but I would bet that they are R1a too. I can't explain it with words. It's just something in their expression.

    Stellen Skarsgård



    Gustaf Skarsgård

    Indeed I have had this feeling for long and also mentioned it, I also know that you did argue with this for long. yDNA and mtDNA(for females) does influence the look and some characteristics of people. Also there is difference between the various subclades of a Haplogroup. For example East European R1a (mostly z280)
    do have their own characteristic look in comparison to Indo_Iranic Z93 or even North European Z284.

    However there are still characteristics which are typically R1a no matter which subclade. If I compare my Polish friends behave to mine sometimes.

    For example Jewish R1a people no matter how light they are scream more Indo_Iranian than Slavic to me. Funny thing is there was some time ago an article that scientist now can reproduce facial and cranial features based on some SNPs and interestingly the Scythian R1a z93 appeared like South Europeans based on cranial than modern East Europeans.
    Last edited by Alan; 11-10-16 at 14:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Ben Affleck is extremely R1b looking to me. It looks like J2a1-M319 isn't one of the common J2 branches and may have been in western Europe an extremely long time. It's not like Affleck is a recent immigrant or anything. Most of the waspy Hollywood males look R1b to me. They all have a med-high forehead, squinty eyes, and an oval face. Typical R1b look... The Scandinavian look you don't see all the often in western Europe, is the broader face, high cheekbones, less of the oval/doughy face features that western Euro males often have. ie: Dolf Lundgren, Mads Mikkelsen..etc


    There is a reason why y and mtDNA are highlighted in our DNA, if they had no use I doubt they would be highlighted.

    People of the same ethnicity will often look more similar to people of completely different aDNA. But the point is the yDNA does give some charactersitics that is seen throughout different ethnicities.
    Last edited by Alan; 10-10-16 at 04:12.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I always thought Netanyahu looked somewhere between Spaniard and Middle Eastern. I would have thought R1b or J2. The R1a-Z93 is a surprise...

    You will notice though, the South Asian skull shape and features are similar to a European on many levels with the exception of the dark skin. That is probably why South Asians and Europeans were thought to be of the same racial type by those early anthropologists.


    Were there any famous R1b men on the show this season?

    The original J2 look.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan
    http://arthistoryworlds.org/sculpture-from-sumer/

    A very handsome variation of what ancient Celtic men probably looked like in modern form. Notice substantial EEF ancestry picked up in Central and SW Europe in traditional Celtic territory. (perhaps from mtDNA H women)
    https://wallpaperscraft.com/tag/kit%20harington
    I always was convinced he is z93 because he has even more the Iranic look than Middle Eastern. He doesn't look the slightest Spaniard or Levantine to me imo.


    Some typical Z93 facial features are this to me.

    http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGjh_hGUkAALD3T.jpg:small

    https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5292/5...c1f42f470a.jpg

    https://ellengeerlings.files.wordpre...10/portret.jpg

    http://www.hpg-sehit.com/wene/sehit_...lgani_ayar.jpg

    http://tracara.com/wp-content/upload...k-bali-Beg.jpg

    https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6085/6...4dbd5b06_b.jpg

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pgYnnBSRyQ...rdish-guys.jpg


    A strong Characteristic I have noticed among R1a (especially z93 ) are elve like ears which lean towards outside at the top.

    Erdogan looks absolutely nothing like a J2, more like a R1a(rather z280)

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    Maciamo here is another one with yDNA J2a

    Dr Oz

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Maciamo here is another one with yDNA J2a

    Dr Oz
    Thanks, but he was already in the list of famous people on the Haplogroup J2 page. I didn't add the picture as he is a minor celebrity (practically unknown outside the US). I don't add minor celebrities to the Famous Y-DNA members page as it would be too long (millions of potential members over the years).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I always was convinced he is z93 because he has even more the Iranic look than Middle Eastern. He doesn't look the slightest Spaniard or Levantine to me imo.


    Some typical Z93 facial features are this to me.

    http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGjh_hGUkAALD3T.jpg:small

    https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5292/5...c1f42f470a.jpg

    https://ellengeerlings.files.wordpre...10/portret.jpg

    http://www.hpg-sehit.com/wene/sehit_...lgani_ayar.jpg

    http://tracara.com/wp-content/upload...k-bali-Beg.jpg

    https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6085/6...4dbd5b06_b.jpg

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pgYnnBSRyQ...rdish-guys.jpg


    A strong Characteristic I have noticed among R1a (especially z93 ) are elve like ears which lean towards outside at the top.

    Erdogan looks absolutely nothing like a J2, more like a R1a(rather z280)
    Alan, thanks for posting the pics, I have to disagree with Erogdan, I find he looks J2a if anything, one thing I noticed from the pics you posted are that R-Z93 have similar features to J2a particularly the large forehead which for me was a trend I noticed for J2a individuals, also having an oval hairline/head shape for J2a, it seems that even R-Z93 men show a tendency to carry these features as well, this is all theory of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Alan, thanks for posting the pics, I have to disagree with Erogdan, I find he looks J2a if anything, one thing I noticed from the pics you posted are that R-Z93 have similar features to J2a particularly the large forehead which for me was a trend I noticed for J2a individuals, also having an oval hairline/head shape for J2a, it seems that even R-Z93 men show a tendency to carry these features as well, this is all theory of course.
    Well let's agree to disagree but look at Erdogan, he look much more similar to Netanyahu don't you think, his hairline, forhead and general facial features.

    The reason why J2a and R1a z93 look often very similar is imo, because these are the two Haplogroups which merged most often and earliest after z93 evolved. The very first thing that happened and which actually brought the Indo_Iranian tribes into existence is that R and J merged. Even R1b m343/L23 can look often similar.

    Let's be clear almost every moden Indo_Iranian group has at least these two Haplogroups R1a z93 and J. From South_Central Asia to West Asia. Even the ancient Indo_Iranians from the Steppes did have these both most often (exception the Alans who were more R1a and G2a heavy). Sarmatians were J and R1a, Among Scythian remains we have R1a and J2a. Iron Age Iranians and Savavid era once had J2a and R1a z93.

    No wonder J2 and R1a z93 look similar in features. The hairline is one of the least similarities imo. Otherwise there are many similarities.
    Last edited by Alan; 12-10-16 at 03:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Well let's agree to disagree but look at Erdogan, he look much more similar to Netanyahu don't you think, his hairline, forhead and general facial features.

    The reason why J2a and R1a z93 look often very similar is imo, because these are the two Haplogroups which merged most often and earliest after z93 evolved. The very first thing that happened and which actually brought the Indo_Iranian tribes into existence is that R and J merged. Even R1b m343/L23 look very often similar to these two.

    Let's be clear almost every moden Indo_Iranian group has at least these two Haplogroups R1a z93 and J. From South_Central Asia to West Asia. Even the ancient Indo_Iranians from the Steppes did have these both most often (exception the Alans who were more R1a and G2a heavy). Sarmatians were J and R1a, Among Scythian remains we have R1a and J2a. Iron Age Iranians and Savavid era once had J2a and R1a z93.

    No wonder J2 and R1a z93 look similar in features. The hairline is one of the least similarities imo. Otherwise there are many similarities.
    I agree with you on that one, I thought Netanyahu would have been J2a before this information, but yes Erogdan doesn't have the typical J2a facial features, I guess he would have to test who knows he might even get another clade.

    I always suspected the same thing that J2 and R1a merged in the past, it makes sense and the information you persent seems very solid, thanks for the analogy, what other features would you say are consistent with the two and R-L23? You think that maybe even T-M70 might be in this merged group?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's not so much the traits as the general 'feel' that is similar between those J2 people. It's things like the expression in the eyes. It's hard to explain. Usually, with a bit of international experience, it's possible to guess a person's mother tongue, or at least linguistic family of the mother tongue (e.g. Slavic, Germanic, Romance). It's not based on the person's ethnicity. It works even if a person is an immigrant to the country in question. For example, an East Asian who grew up in France (ideally adopted so as to be sure that French is their native language) will have a different facial expression from an East Asian who grew up in the UK, who will in turn be different from one who grew up in Korea. It's possible to perceive a sort of 'language aura' in one's facial expression.

    I think that there is also a particular 'aura' or 'feel' for haplogroups. R1a men look more earnest and forthright. J2a men look easy-going, amiable and diplomatic/commercial. I1 people seem levelheaded and sociable. E1b1b people appear to be more passionate and relentless. Those are just my personal impressions.
    @maciamo I doubt if y DNA has that kind of influence, you can take my family as an example, until now in Netherlands above the Rhine there are only two family cases of E-V22 (= original Egyptian YDNA), both most probably linked with the soldiers of the Spanish army during the Dutch liberation war. In my family case with the Battle of Boksum 1586. Afterwards this is always mingled with non Egyptian or Mediterranean Mt DNA, but I doubt it if this Y DNA until know has resulted in an Egyptian "look and feel" or aura as you called it.....or am I wrong.....?
















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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    @maciamo I doubt if y DNA has that kind of influence, you can take my family as an example, until now in Netherlands above the Rhine there are only two family cases of E-V22 (= original Egyptian YDNA), both most probably linked with the soldiers of the Spanish army during the Dutch liberation war. In my family case with the Battle of Boksum 1586. Afterwards this is always mingled with non Egyptian or Mediterranean Mt DNA, but I doubt it if this Y DNA until know has resulted in an Egyptian "look and feel" or aura as you called it.....or am I wrong.....?
    I see that you did not understand at all what I meant. I mean not even one bit. I don't know if it's because I failed to express myself correctly or because it's the kind of topic where people come with their preconceived ideas and just think A when I say B, no matter how many times I say it's B, just because there is no concept for B in their mind yet.


    I wrote in several posts above (#50, #52) that Y-DNA's influence, be it on phenotype or fertility, varies because of special mutations (or insertions/deletions) that affect Y-chromosomal genes. I explained that 99% of Y-DNA SNP's are silent mutations that do not alter at all gene function, and that only a few polymorphisms seem to have had enough impact to have been selected by evolution. I wrote a full article on this, which I linked twice from this thread. Have you even read it? Because if you haven't it's like discussing a new paper and not even checking the paper in question.


    In short, as far as I have been able to establish from my research in the thread on Y-chromosomal polymorphisms, there is probably no phenotypical difference between any E1b1b subclade, be it V22, V13, M81 or M34, because the only gene-altering polymorphisms in E1b1b define haplogroups DE, E and E1b1b. Some gene-altering polymorphisms may only affect fertility. At present I have no way of knowing for sure which of these evolutionarily important polymorphisms affected fertility vs phenotype, or both.


    Nevertheless, I have met enough people over the years whose Y-DNA is known to me, and seen many more pictures of famous haplogroup members, to realise that I could guess at least if someone belonged to haplogroup R, E, J or G-I (it's harder to tell G and I apart). I have guessed a few times right. I obviously can't tell the subclade, and I shouldn't be able since 99.9% of all subclades are defined by silent mutations with no phenotypic effect.


    I am shocked to read that you would think that I believe that members of haplogroup E-V22 have an Egyptian feel, when haplogroup E has such a wide geographic distribution. I have tried to explain that Y-DNA could simply influence the way the body and mind masculinises at puberty. This may be through something visible like a stronger nose and jaw, or a behavioural phenotype that could increased one's chances of reproduction, like heightened charm/smooh-talking (a trait which I found more common among J2a men), heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation (E and R1a), increased sense of honour (surprisingly common in populations with lots of E1b1b), etc. It's very difficult to define common traits between haplogroup members because Y-DNA only has a minor effect on looks and behaviour compared to other chromosomes, and other genes as well as upbringing, culture and life experiences may also override any trait. So ideally we should look at trends within people from a same country, culure and ethnic group.

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    Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I see that you did not understand at all what I meant. I mean not even one bit. I don't know if it's because I failed to express myself correctly or because it's the kind of topic where people come with their preconceived ideas and just think A when I say B, no matter how many times I say it's B, just because there is no concept for B in their mind yet.


    I wrote in several posts above (#50, #52) that Y-DNA's influence, be it on phenotype or fertility, varies because of special mutations (or insertions/deletions) that affect Y-chromosomal genes. I explained that 99% of Y-DNA SNP's are silent mutations that do not alter at all gene function, and that only a few polymorphisms seem to have had enough impact to have been selected by evolution. I wrote a full article on this, which I linked twice from this thread. Have you even read it? Because if you haven't it's like discussing a new paper and not even checking the paper in question.


    In short, as far as I have been able to establish from my research in the thread on Y-chromosomal polymorphisms, there is probably no phenotypical difference between any E1b1b subclade, be it V22, V13, M81 or M34, because the only gene-altering polymorphisms in E1b1b define haplogroups DE, E and E1b1b. Some gene-altering polymorphisms may only affect fertility. At present I have no way of knowing for sure which of these evolutionarily important polymorphisms affected fertility vs phenotype, or both.


    Nevertheless, I have met enough people over the years whose Y-DNA is known to me, and seen many more pictures of famous haplogroup members, to realise that I could guess at least if someone belonged to haplogroup R, E, J or G-I (it's harder to tell G and I apart). I have guessed a few times right. I obviously can't tell the subclade, and I shouldn't be able since 99.9% of all subclades are defined by silent mutations with no phenotypic effect.


    I am shocked to read that you would think that I believe that members of haplogroup E-V22 have an Egyptian feel, when haplogroup E has such a wide geographic distribution. I have tried to explain that Y-DNA could simply influence the way the body and mind masculinises at puberty. This may be through something visible like a stronger nose and jaw, or a behavioural phenotype that could increased one's chances of reproduction, like heightened charm/smooh-talking (a trait which I found more common among J2a men), heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation (E and R1a), increased sense of honour (surprisingly common in populations with lots of E1b1b), etc. It's very difficult to define common traits between haplogroup members because Y-DNA only has a minor effect on looks and behaviour compared to other chromosomes, and other genes as well as upbringing, culture and life experiences may also override any trait. So ideally we should look at trends within people from a same country, culure and ethnic group.
    Thanks for the reply and explanations! The basic thing is that I think you overestimate the influence of Y-DNA. Especially when you speak about: "I think that there is also a particular 'aura' or 'feel' for haplogroups." I think that's more nurture than nature. You make it almost supernatural. I doubt that....nothing more nothing less.

    And speaking about character issues like " heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation... increased sense of honour" there are besides the environment al lot more genes at stake....

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Thanks for the reply and explanations! The basic thing is that I think you overestimate the influence of Y-DNA. Especially when you speak about: "I think that there is also a particular 'aura' or 'feel' for haplogroups." I think that's more nurture than nature. You make it almost supernatural. I doubt that....nothing more nothing less.

    Supernatural? I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't believe in supernatural.


    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    And speaking about character issues like " heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation... increased sense of honour" there are besides the environment al lot more genes at stake....

    Of course there are much more gens at stake! I assumed that everybody knew that. Not only is there many non-Y-chromosomal genes involved, but the environment, upbringing and life experiences all play an influence. Additionally, the effects on Y-DNA would be strongest among young men (mid-teens to mid-twenties) when their testosterone and urge to reproduce is at its strongest. Prepubescents boys would not be affected at all. And elderly men with low testosterone and degenerating Y chromosomes (yes, Y-chromosomes in the body's cells tend to fray away more quickly than other chromosomes when telomeres shorten with age) would also see the effect on Y-DNA fade with age.


    Character is difficult to measure, so let's take an example of physical trait. Let's imagine that Y-DNA had a effect on nose length (not completely absurd since men have bigger noses than women and the difference develops at puberty). The main genes involved in nose size, shape, etc. would obviously be autosomal. Y-DNA may just act as an amplificator, a bit like epigenetic changes that wrap histones more tightly, or conversely loosen their grip, to activate or inhibit genes. For example it is known that histone modification is implicated in the regulation spermatogenesis, so the role of Y-DNA in epigenetics is well established.


    So let's say individual A has inherited a set of autosomal genes associated with very short noses, and individual B has other gene variants linked to very prominent noses. If both have the same Y-DNA (or at least useful Y-DNA mutations, so haplogroup subclades don't really matter in most cases), only autosomal genes will account for the difference in nose length in adulthood. Let's say that individual A's nose is 4 cm longer than B's is 6 cm. Now if we take too other individuals (C and D) with the exact same autosomal genes for nose morphology as individuals A and B, but that they both carry another type of Y chromosome, known to amplify nose length (there isn't any Y-DNA know to do that at present - it's just hypothetical). The difference might be just a 10% increase on autosomal variations, so 4.4 cm for C and 6.6 cm for D. In other words, B's nose is still considerably longer than C's, even though C possess a Y-DNA haplogroup associated with longer noses. Yet, overall, in a population where the Y-DNA for long nose is very common, most people will have longer noses than in an autosomally similar population with different Y-DNA types.

    In this example, one way of knowing the additional impact of Y-DNA on top of autosomal genes, without knowing which autosomal genes are involved, would be to compare nose lengths between men and women of a same ethnic group, and calculate averages (out of thousands of samples, as individual autosomal variations can be huge) by Y-DNA haplogroup within that population.

    Now the nose was just an arbitrary example that I used because it is easy to visualise. The same would apply for other traits I described like rationality, dominance or aggressiveness. It all boils down essentially to autosomal genes, but Y-DNA could amplify some sexually relevant traits one way or another. Those amplifications are more visible at the scale of a whole population, especially if one haplogroup is strongly dominant, and influences all autosomal variations in the same direction.


    I hope that clarifies what I intended to convey.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Supernatural? I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't believe in supernatural.





    Of course there are much more gens at stake! I assumed that everybody knew that. Not only is there many non-Y-chromosomal genes involved, but the environment, upbringing and life experiences all play an influence. Additionally, the effects on Y-DNA would be strongest among young men (mid-teens to mid-twenties) when their testosterone and urge to reproduce is at its strongest. Prepubescents boys would not be affected at all. And elderly men with low testosterone and degenerating Y chromosomes (yes, Y-chromosomes in the body's cells tend to fray away more quickly than other chromosomes when telomeres shorten with age) would also see the effect on Y-DNA fade with age.


    Character is difficult to measure, so let's take an example of physical trait. Let's imagine that Y-DNA had a effect on nose length (not completely absurd since men have bigger noses than women and the difference develops at puberty). The main genes involved in nose size, shape, etc. would obviously be autosomal. Y-DNA may just act as an amplificator, a bit like epigenetic changes that wrap histones more tightly, or conversely loosen their grip, to activate or inhibit genes. For example it is known that histone modification is implicated in the regulation spermatogenesis, so the role of Y-DNA in epigenetics is well established.


    So let's say individual A has inherited a set of autosomal genes associated with very short noses, and individual B has other gene variants linked to very prominent noses. If both have the same Y-DNA (or at least useful Y-DNA mutations, so haplogroup subclades don't really matter in most cases), only autosomal genes will account for the difference in nose length in adulthood. Let's say that individual A's nose is 4 cm longer than B's is 6 cm. Now if we take too other individuals (C and D) with the exact same autosomal genes for nose morphology as individuals A and B, but that they both carry another type of Y chromosome, known to amplify nose length (there isn't any Y-DNA know to do that at present - it's just hypothetical). The difference might be just a 10% increase on autosomal variations, so 4.4 cm for C and 6.6 cm for D. In other words, B's nose is still considerably longer than C's, even though C possess a Y-DNA haplogroup associated with longer noses. Yet, overall, in a population where the Y-DNA for long nose is very common, most people will have longer noses than in an autosomally similar population with different Y-DNA types.

    In this example, one way of knowing the additional impact of Y-DNA on top of autosomal genes, without knowing which autosomal genes are involved, would be to compare nose lengths between men and women of a same ethnic group, and calculate averages (out of thousands of samples, as individual autosomal variations can be huge) by Y-DNA haplogroup within that population.

    Now the nose was just an arbitrary example that I used because it is easy to visualise. The same would apply for other traits I described like rationality, dominance or aggressiveness. It all boils down essentially to autosomal genes, but Y-DNA could amplify some sexually relevant traits one way or another. Those amplifications are more visible at the scale of a whole population, especially if one haplogroup is strongly dominant, and influences all autosomal variations in the same direction.


    I hope that clarifies what I intended to convey.

    Dear Macionmo af course I can understand your intentions.
    A few remarks:
    1. Your basic argumentation, with your nose example, in this posting is "as-if". The only thing we now certain for Y-DNA is the sober remark of LeBrok: "Y DNA makes a man out of a woman. If there was no Y chromosome there wouldn't be men, only women. As we know a man is somewhat different from a woman in behaviour and a look. So, yes to the main question." Nothing more nothing less. We simply don't know more than this, at least there is no clear evidence, for the fact that Y-DNA has an effect beyond that. But you approach the effect of Y-DNA as if it has broader "character" and even into "aura" consequenties. So at this moment you create an elephant out of it which may be in reality still is a little fly....
    2. The differences in Y-DNA and the labeling is a human projection. A construct. The differences are "copy failures". We don't know which effect this "copy failures" have. Is it important for human behavior or is it junk DNA material
    n'importe quoi. We simply don't know.
    3. What makes the influence of Y-DNA of one specific ancestor that big? Ok we come from a situation were the paternal line was important. But that's a social construct, opinion based, not an biological one. What makes his influence on my genotype, phenotype, behavior, "aura", "Feel" or whatsoever that big!? In my case the Y-DNA (a in Northwestern Europe very rare YDNA) came most probably in 1586 in my family. For me that's 12 generations ago. What makes the influence of this single person bigger than the other 4095 (double ancestors not counted)? In some way you can consider this as a kind of Dr. Vogel homeopathy ;)
    Last edited by Northener; 01-11-16 at 22:07.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    [QUOTE=Maciamo;493621]Supernatural? I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't believe in supernatural.

    Dear Maciamo,

    Ever in doubt and out of curiosity I did further "deskresearch". This has changed my view. There is some research about the effect of Y-DNA and the differences within it, it's indeed about "typical male disorders" ;)

    - Brain function:
    Despite its small size, and limited gene content, we have argued here that the Y chromosome may exert a considerable influence on brain function. As a consequence of its inheritance pattern, genes upon it may help to define male-specific brain phenotypes, and hence male-typical behaviours. An alternative perspective is that, in some cases, Y-linked genes may act to attenuate sex differences (e.g. where the Y homologue of an X-linked escaping inactivation performs a functionally equivalent role). In this context, Dewing and colleagues suggested that, in rats, ‘Sry could compensate for a factor that is only present in females and maintains tyrosine hydroxylase expression in substantia nigra neurons’, positing high levels of estrogens in females as such a factor [53]. A major goal for future work will be to describe the brain functions of Y-linked genes in terms of their relevance to selective evolutionary forces acting on the chromosome, such as sexual antagonism. Further studies on the Y chromosome will provide insights into the biological basis of neural sexual differentiation (or lack thereof), and will clarify the molecular basis of sex biases in common neuropsychiatric disorders."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...2/#!po=50.0000

    Result: unclear, need to further research

    - Aggressive behavior:
    Studies show that personality dimensions such as aggression are influenced by genetic factors and that allelic variants located on the Y chromosome influence such behavior. We investigated polymorphisms on the male-specific region of the human Y chromosome in 156 unrelated males from the same ethnic background, who were administered the Punjabi translation of the Buss and Perry Aggression Questionnaire that measures four aspects that constitute aggressive behavior, i.e. physical aggression, verbal aggression, anger, and hostility. A value of .85 for Cronbach's coefficient alpha indicates considerable internal consistency and suggests that the psychometric properties of the aggression questionnaire can be adapted for the Pakistani population. A mean score+/-SD of 69.70+/-19.95 was obtained for the questionnaire. Each individual was genotyped following a phylogenetic hierarchical approach to define evolutionary Y haplogroups. Five Y haplogroups that are commonly found in Eurasia and Pakistan comprised 87% (n=136) of the population sample, with one haplogroup, R1a1, constituting 55% of the sampled population. A comparison of the total and four subscale mean scores across the five common Y haplogroups that were present at a frequency > or =3% in this ethnic group revealed no overall significant differences. However, effect-size comparisons allowed us to detect an association of the haplogroups R2 (Cohen's d statistic=.448-.732) and R1a1 (d=.107-.448) with lower self-reported aggression mean scores in this population.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18942110

    Result: positive effect of the influence of different Y-DNA

    - Alcoholism:
    Our results indicate that the risk of alcoholism in Finnish males is influenced by differences in Y chromosomes. Risk ratios suggest that males within clades 1-49, 1-21, and 1-57 were 1.5 times more likely to be alcoholic than males with other Y haplotypes, and the risk for alcohol dependence with ASPD was increased 2-fold within clade 1-57. However, the majority of the risk of alcoholism in these Finnish males is not Y chromosome-associated, and in fact, alcohol dependence is observed with Y haplotypes distributed throughout the cladogram. Twin studies suggest that alcoholism has a heritability of ≈50% (50, 51). Using this figure and data from our population sample, we estimate that Y chromosome variability may account for ≈7% of the total variance and 15% of the genetic variance of alcoholism in these Finnish males. These values are consistent with our present understanding of an etiology of alcoholism that encompasses contributions from many environmental factors and multiple genetic loci.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC22445/

    Result: positive effect of Y-DNA and the difference within it.

    - Autism:
    Taken together, these results indicate that there is no specific Y chromosome haplogroup in association with autism. However, a direct role of one or more Y chromosomal genes in the predisposition to the syndrome cannot be excluded. Indeed, the Y chromosome has a relatively high frequency of de novo point mutations or deletions compared to other chromosomes, so the appearance of neo-mutations leading to predisposition to autism would not be detected by a simple definition of haplogroups.
    In conclusion, within the limits of association studies, this investigation supports the absence of a specific Y chromosome effect in autism but analysis of candidate genes may be necessary to exclude a direct role of the Y chromosome in autistic disorder.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1899172/

    Result: negative effect, but partly still unclear.

    Made my view more nuanced.....may be the effect is bigger than I supposed!

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