Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

[Alan]

Dear Macionmo af course I can understand your intentions.
A few remarks:
1. Your basic argumentation, with your nose example, in this posting is "as-if". The only thing we now certain for Y-DNA is the sober remark of LeBrok: "Y DNA makes a man out of a woman. If there was no Y chromosome there wouldn't be men, only women. As we know a man is somewhat different from a woman in behaviour and a look. So, yes to the main question." Nothing more nothing less. We simply don't know more than this, at least there is no clear evidence, for the fact that Y-DNA has an effect beyond that. But you approach the effect of Y-DNA as if it has broader "character" and even into "aura" consequenties. So at this moment you create an elephant out of it which may be in reality still is a little fly....
2. The differences in Y-DNA and the labeling is a human projection. A construct. The differences are "copy failures". We don't know which effect this "copy failures" have. Is it important for human behavior or is it junk DNA material n'importe quoi. We simply don't know.
3. What makes the influence of Y-DNA of one specific ancestor that big? Ok we come from a situation were the paternal line was important. But that's a social construct, opinion based, not an biological one. What makes his influence on my genotype, phenotype, behavior, "aura", "Feel" or whatsoever that big!? In my case the Y-DNA (a in Northwestern Europe very rare YDNA) came most probably in 1586 in my family. For me that's 12 generations ago. What makes the influence of this single person bigger than the other 4095 (double ancestors not counted)? In some way you can consider this as a kind of Dr. Vogel homeopathy ;)

Actually to be fair, Maciamo gave a reasonable example with Lion/Tiger hybrids to assume that yDNA does indeed influence some physical and mental traits.

It is no coincidence that male Lions and female tigers always become the larger typed Liger while female Lions and male Tigers become the physically little smaller and different looking Tigons.

There is a reason why y and mt chromosomes are highlited in our genome by being bigger in comparison to the other.


But as Maciamo correctly noticed it is always a combination of both (in men) y chromosome on one hand and aDNA on the other with enviromental and ethno_cultural factors.

aDNA and yDNA are not fixated parameters. Every set of DNA has an interval of physical and mental end results.

Let me try to give an example.

You got two lookwise identical cars from the same manufacturer, withthe only difference that Car A: has max speed of 240 km/H , Car B: 300 km/H and difference in Horsepower.

Now both have quite a huge interval of speed they can be driven at (A => 1-240 and B=> 1-280 km/h).

Now assuming both cars are driven by the same driver with the same driving skills( same set of aDNA), the way how the cars are driven wll be almost the same. Depending on where the Cars are driven (enviromental/ethno_cultural factor), one could be on average at 160 km/h while the other only at 60 km/h because the environment is different.

Now imagine both cars being driven on the same race track (same enviromental/cultural influence) by the same driver (same set of aDNA) with no speed limit (difference in maximum potential due to different maxspeed and horsepower ) one car will not only drive faster due to different max speed but also reach it's maximum speed a little faster due to difference in Horsepower. And this difference in my example would be the y and mtDNA effect, especially yDNA in males.

As you might have noticed I took for my example two cars with quite similar max speed with only a little difference of 40 km/H because I tried to make sure that this would rather be one of the smaller factors in my example since I believe it is a smaller factor in comparison to aDNA (the driver) but it is still an important factor! Yet every driver has an interval of possibilities of how he can drive (even the slowest driver has) and these possibilities next to his skills are dictated by his own skills in combination to enviromental factors. Enviromental differences would be the biggest unknown factor depending on where you live(drive) if it is the same aDNA but on the completely opposite part of the world (very hot vs very cold and very conservative vs very liberal) it can have huge effect on your physical/mental appearance.

[Expredel]

Sorry, of course it is 1 per generation.

Is 100 mutations in 3500 years based on the full Y chromosome, or 20% of the Y chromosome?

I think yfull sequences only 20% of the Y chromosome, so this would imply 500 mutations in 3500 years. That is 3 mutations for every 21 years. If you look at the available data it comes out at 2.5 mutations per generation, but that doesn't take deletions/insertions into account.


The best way to test your theory is to post 40 pictures of men with similar autosomes who belong to 4 distinct Y haplogroups. Then ask people to pair males who they believe to look similar. Obviously this will not result in 20 pairs, but people should be able to find at least 4 pairs.

If Y haplogroup is of no influence they will be correct 25% of the time.

[Expredel]

Btw, some time ago I did a quick test, providing someone with 30 pictures of West European looking men with 10 pictures each of R1a, R1b, and I1. The test subject grouped 6 men together, 5 of which were I1. I'm not familiar with probability math, but it seems to defy the odds.

For R1a and R1b there wasn't an obvious pattern.

[Angela]

Btw, some time ago I did a quick test, providing someone with 30 pictures of West European looking men with 10 pictures each of R1a, R1b, and I1. The test subject grouped 6 men together, 5 of which were I1. I'm not familiar with probability math, but it seems to defy the odds.

For R1a and R1b there wasn't an obvious pattern.

Can you post the pictures? It might be fun.

[Expredel]

Can you post the pictures? It might be fun.

Alright, got 16 guys who should all belong to either one of two Y haplogroups. I don't know their nationality, but I picked men who I perceived as passable as NW European. Just refer to them as 01, 02, etc. Group them however you wish. I can only attach 4 pictures per post, so give me some time to add the rest.

Picture 01, 02, 03, 04.

01.jpg02.jpg03.jpg04.jpg

[Expredel]

Picture 05, 06, 07, 08.

05.jpg06.jpg7.jpg08.jpg

[Expredel]

Picture 09, 10, 11, 12.

09.jpg10.jpg11.jpg12.jpg

[Expredel]

Picture 13, 14, 15 and 16.

13.jpg14.jpg15.jpg16.jpg

[Angela]

These are just guesses, and my "yardstick" is just based on the best fit in terms of country, and which y lines are most prevalent in those countries.

R1b: 1, 2, 8, 12, 13, 15

I don't think 5 looks northwestern, but I'd say R1b just because there aren't many R1a or I1 southern Europeans.

I1 or R1a: 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16

[Expredel]

I'll give other people a chance to join in. I think most of these men are American. A better method might be to look for a striking resemblance between two faces, our brains are really good at recognizing faces after all. I don't think a rational approach works because we don't know what to look for.

[Azzurro]

Expredel, the two haplogroups are R1b and I1? Or is it R1b,I1 and R1a?

My Guess for R1b: 01, 02, 04, 05, 08, 13 and 15

My Guess for I1: 07, 09, 10, 11, 16

My Guess for R1a: 03, 06, 12, 14

If there is surprise haplogroups none of those 3, the best candidates are 03, 11, and 14

[Groninger]

Very difficult. 06, 07, 10 and 16 look like I1 to me. I have the feeling the features R1b men are more pronounced while they have a sort of dull rational look in the eyes. If they are handsome, they are so in a very masculine way. I1 men tend to have a higher forehead compared to the rest of the face with a sort of naughty look in the eyes. They look more 'cute'. If we compare Charlton Heston and David Beckham or instance, two Germanic looking men admired by women for their looks, I would say Heston is the R1b type while Beckham is the I1 type. Maybe it's nonsense, we'll see if it holds. As to character, looking at famous people, it seems the artisic type is overrepresented in haplogoup I.

[Expredel]

These are eight I1 men and eight R1b men. Looking for racial traits is pointless in my opinion, it's better to look for which men might be father and son. The setup is not very scientific, they should all be the same age, from the same nation, and photographed in the same manner.

[Angela]

Very difficult. 06, 07, 10 and 16 look like I1 to me. I have the feeling the features R1b men are more pronounced while they have a sort of dull rational look in the eyes. If they are handsome, they are so in a very masculine way. I1 men tend to have a higher forehead compared to the rest of the face with a sort of naughty look in the eyes. They look more 'cute'. If we compare Charlton Heston and David Beckham or instance, two Germanic looking men admired by women for their looks, I would say Heston is the R1b type while Beckham is the I1 type. Maybe it's nonsense, we'll see if it holds. As to character, looking at famous people, it seems the artisic type is overrepresented in haplogoup I.

Good grief. That's about all I can say about this mishmash.

[sparkey]

My guesses:
I1: 01, 03, 06, 08, 09, 12, 14, 15
R1b: 02, 04, 05, 07, 10, 11, 13, 16

I don't have much rational justification, although I guess I tend to associate lighter pigmentation with I1 due to its modern distribution.

[Groninger]

Good grief. That's about all I can say about this mishmash.

It seems my feminine instincts are better developed than yours.

[Angela]

It seems my feminine instincts are better developed than yours.

We're dealing, as much as possible, with science here, not "instincts" of any kind. No crystal ball gazing or messages from aliens either.

[Groninger]

I mean look at Warren Buffet, what a wonderful, beautifulman… Then compare him to the singer Jimmy Buffet. I had never heard of him, butI looked up his picture and he has precisely the same cheerful boyish look inhis eyes. American i1-men are the friendly Yank-type, there is no doubt aboutthat; bonny and blithe and good and gay, with a touch of naughtiness. Take alook also at Bill Clinton and Bill Clinton’s father; even their real name saysit all.

[ngc598]

We're dealing, as much as possible, with science here, not "instincts" of any kind. No crystal ball gazing or messages from aliens either.

Seriously? People try to determine the Y-haplogroup from the face looks in this thread, although there isn't a single gene in the Y-chromosome that has something to do with it, and you call that 'dealing with science'? The crystal ball, you mentioned so depreciatively, is definitely no less scientific than this, and let's not even talk about astrology, which has even methods which everybody can follow. Where are the methods for this physiognosticohaplodeterminology? You know, science is measuring and defining with methods, which have the capability for falsification (aka proof whether true or false). If this is not the case, it's just playing around. Oh yes, we have this: 'He has such thick eyebrows, he must be haplogroup G!' - Really - is that your perception of science?

Let's face it, this thread is just funny entertainment, no reason to belittle someones opinions. (Well, I guess, I did just the same right now! Bad me! )

[Angela]

"Here" as on this Board...not, obviously, on this thread. Perhaps you should hold your fire until you can discern the difference between people having fun, and people who may actually be serious.

[Expredel]

People are not getting anywhere close so far. To make it easier, this is not a random distribution, so there's a distinct pattern.

[IronSide]

Well does mtDNA influence looks as well ?

To me Y-dna and mtdna dont influence looks because that thing is in autosomal however they can be used as an indication to "racial classification" when used correctly.

We can start by defining "pure types" for example the early European hunter gatherers were of haplogroup I and U5 or U2, the populations with the highest frequency of these haplogroups are the saami, baltics, and fennoscandians, unsurprisingly that correlates with western european hunter gatherer admixture (WHG). these populations are tall, have fair hair and eyes, strong jaw,high nose bridge, and deep set eyes, sometimes prominent ears. They are classified as Cromagnoid.

An individual from a population is a mix of "pure types" that participate in the gene pool of that population, the dynamics of European migrations throughout history has produced the perceived types of alpine, dinarid, nordid, mediterranean, atlantic, armenoid ... etc.

Again its Autosomal that defines one's looks, these are just used as a possible indication and they can be wrong.

What do you think of my elegant methodology ? or is it as the british say "a bunch of bollocks"

as for the pictures my guess would be :
R1b : 1,2,7,8,9,13,14,16
I1 : 3,4,12,15
E1b1b: 5
N1c : 6
R1a : 10,11

[Azzurro]

People are not getting anywhere close so far. To make it easier, this is not a random distribution, so there's a distinct pattern.

Is it all odds are I1 and all evens are R1b? I see that I1 has probably more square faces while R1b more round?

[Groninger]

Is it all odds are I1 and all evens are R1b? I see that I1 has probably more square faces while R1b more round?

Perhaps, now that you say so… Guy 4 & 8 look a bit alikeI’d say. And 2 & 6 also, in the sense that they’re both nerdy guys withfunny teeth. But then, 9 & 14 look abit alike as well, 14 could be 9’s father or brother.

[Expredel]

Well does mtDNA influence looks as well ?

mtDNA is several thousand times smaller than yDNA. The question is not whether yDNA influences looks (XY females prove it does) but whether we can tell the Y haplogroups apart.

I find it hard to tell whether 9 has a narrow or wide skull due to his haircut. I'm giving people a little more time to chip in because it's not easy to find pictures so it would be hard to repeat this experiment.