Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

**Northener** · 03-02-17, 15:56

Originally Posted by Angela

We're dealing, as much as possible, with science here, not "instincts" of any kind. No crystal ball gazing or messages from aliens either.

This attempts to qualify the looks from some kind of Y-DNA are hocus pocus,nothing 'scientific.'

It's like how they have something NW European ok it will R1b or I, I bet you have a fair chance to make the right choice

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**Valerius** · 03-02-17, 16:15

This thread reminds me of something written long time ago in the old books of Physical Anthropology. There were some observations on the so-called Dinaric phenotype in the Balkans noting that people with such phenotype tend to act like an alpha-males, being more aggressive, more war-like, more spontaneous. Their physical traits are robust, wide jaws, often with cleft chin, great height, athletic body build, long noses. The way they act with all their manliness and aggression seems connected to the Y-chromosome which has something to do with that and their physical traits are a product of higher tostosterone levels which is again connected to the Y-chromosome. The core area of this population is in the countries of ex-Yugoslavia (Western Balkans) and it falls almost in the middle of the I2a-Din YDNA hotspot. There could be some connection. Also, part of the I2a-Din is of local origin and it existed in the same geographical area as now, so it was something common among the ancient Illyrians and Thracians who were considered to be very warlike and aggressive, although that was also ascribed on the Celts and all other barbarians north of the Greeks and the Romans. Otherwise, the Dinaric phenotype is also found in Italy, Germany, France and Iberia where there seem to be no connection to I2a-Din.

**Groninger** · 03-02-17, 16:57

Assumingthedifference is wideskullsvsnarrowskulls (as Expredelseemstosuggest) andthere's a pattern in thenumbers as well, I'd say 1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14 & 16 are i1. Somefamous i-men have pretty big foreheads (Andrew Jackson, Bill Clinton, Peter R de Vries, AdmiralHorty)… Nowsome of youwill say it'sridiculousto say that men of a certainhaplogrouptendto have big foreheads, and as a totalamateur in the field I'm happy tobelievethat, but cansomeone more knowledgablethan me explainto me why? Why is itimpossiblethe Y-chromosomeinfluencestheshape of theforehead?

**Northener** · 03-02-17, 17:26

Originally Posted by Groninger

Assumingthedifference is wideskullsvsnarrowskulls (as Expredelseemstosuggest) andthere's a pattern in thenumbers as well, I'd say 1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14 & 16 are i1. Somefamous i-men have pretty big foreheads (Andrew Jackson, Bill Clinton, Peter R de Vries, AdmiralHorty)… Nowsome of youwill say it'sridiculousto say that men of a certainhaplogrouptendto have big foreheads, and as a totalamateur in the field I'm happy tobelievethat, but cansomeone more knowledgablethan me explainto me why? Why is itimpossiblethe Y-chromosomeinfluencestheshape of theforehead?

Because the assumed relationship between Y-DNA and phenotype are guesses. No one has prove a correlation between a big forehead and Y-DNA. I guess I don't know any article/prove of it.
Of course there is a relationship between the genotype and phenotype. But your genotype is much more related to your aDNA than your Y-DNA. aDNA, your 22 chromosomes, is much broader more related to your parents and grand parents at both sides of your family. The Y-DNA is much smaller, only from father to son, although much more in depth.
Take my case. My aDNA is typically Northwest European, or you could say North Sea Germanic. My Y-DNA is seldom around the North Sea. Most probably due to a Spanish soldier who had a love affair with my Frisian great great etc grandmother (the romantic version) or was raped at the raid from the Spanish in 1586 (the games of thrones version). That's about 12 generations ago. Afterwards 4095 other man and women shaped my genotype......lots of them with haplotype R1b and I etc the typical NW European Y-DNa haplotypes. Would their influence on my look be subordinated to these Y-DNA!? the influence of 1 person vs. 4095 others? Still could be....but no one has a rational explanation c.q. prove for this!!
If the Y-DNA had such an impact I must 've had some "look and feel" of someone from Egypt/Somalia (E-V22 hotspots and homeland). But no one has ever recognized some features of a North East African in me.....
Not to mention the influence of the environment on your looks the Dutch man of the Golden Age (17th century) was 1.65 and in 2014 about 1.84. 20cm with no essential difference in the Y-DNA or aDNA...so circumstances matter also.

**Angela** · 03-02-17, 17:38

Originally Posted by Valerius

This thread reminds me of something written long time ago in the old books of Physical Anthropology. ThThere were some observations on the so-called Dinaric phenotype in the Balkans noting that people with such phenotype tend to act like an alpha-males, being more aggressive, more war-like, more spontaneous. Their physical traits are robust, wide jaws, often with cleft chin, great height, athletic body build, long noses. The way they act with all their manliness and aggression seems connected to the Y-chromosome which has something to do with that and their physical traits are a product of higher tostosterone levels which is again connected to the Y-chromosome. The core area of this population is in the countries of ex-Yugoslavia (Western Balkans) and it falls almost in the middle of the I2a-Din YDNA hotspot. There could be some connection. Also, part of the I2a-Din is of local origin and it existed in the same geographical area as now, so it was something common among the ancient Illyrians and Thracians who were considered to be very warlike and aggressive, although that was also ascribed on the Celts and all other barbarians north of the Greeks and the Romans. Otherwise, the Dinaric phenotype is also found in Italy, Germany, France and Iberia where there seem to be no connection to I2a-Din.

Valerius, that sounds like a very good description of the southern Italian man I married, and he's G2a.

This is one of the reasons I'm skeptical of formulations like this. Traits might be brought into a region by a group bearing a certain yDna, but the coding for those physical traits is on the autosomes. The genetic material on the y would just "masculinize" them even more. That's why there's a girl in my husband's family who looks very like him but just "softer" and not as extreme.

So, in our situation here, traits brought into a region by a population carrying a certain y signature might spread throughout the group, especially if those traits are dominant. So, you could wind up with men who have the traits but carry another y.

The y chromosome is small and getting smaller. So far they haven't found anything that would tie to specific physical traits, although it's definitely what makes a man a man and not a woman, and there is probably a complex interplay between the coding there and those on the autosomes.

@Northener,
I like your analysis a lot...I just don't have any more points to allot.

**Groninger** · 03-02-17, 18:45

Originally Posted by Northener

Because the assumed relationship between Y-DNA and phenotype are guesses. No one has prove a correlation between a big forehead and Y-DNA. I guess I don't know any article/prove of it.
Of course there is a relationship between the genotype and phenotype. But your genotype is much more related to your aDNA than your Y-DNA. aDNA, your 22 chromosomes, is much broader more related to your parents and grand parents at both sides of your family. The Y-DNA is much smaller, only from father to son, although much more in depth.
Take my case. My aDNA is typically Northwest European, or you could say North Sea Germanic. My Y-DNA is seldom around the North Sea. Most probably due to a Spanish soldier who had a love affair with my Frisian great great etc grandmother (the romantic version) or was raped at the raid from the Spanish in 1586 (the games of thrones version). That's about 12 generations ago. Afterwards 4095 other man and women shaped my genotype......lots of them with haplotype R1b and I etc the typical NW European Y-DNa haplotypes. Would their influence on my look be subordinated to these Y-DNA!? the influence of 1 person vs. 4095 others? Still could be....but no one has a rational explanation c.q. prove for this!!
If the Y-DNA had such an impact I must 've had some "look and feel" of someone from Egypt/Somalia (E-V22 hotspots and homeland). But no one has ever recognized some features of a North East African in me.....
Not to mention the influence of the environment on your looks the Dutch man of the Golden Age (17th century) was 1.65 and in 2014 about 1.84. 20cm with no essential difference in the Y-DNA or aDNA...so circumstances matter also.

Thanks for the explanation, but, although I undertand the Y-chromosome haplogroup does not determine the shape of the forehead, in my mind it is not impossible it influences it. Men have different foreheads than women (bigger, more pronounced brow ridge) and I could imagine that two Y-chromosomes that carry slightly different information, have a slightly different influence on the shape of the forehead (and other parts of the body), that is perhaps difficult to see, but not non-existent. Interesting family history, by the way.

**Groninger** · 03-02-17, 21:23

And for the same reason I think it's possible the Y-haplogroup is one of the genetic factors that determine a man's character. We can all agree that men and women are completely different creatures, and even little boys and girls have a very different character. If having a Y-chromosome makes such a difference, why couldn't the Y-haplogroup make a difference as well? Why would it be impossible that men belonging to certain haplogroups are, for instance, more aggressive on average?

**Expredel** · 04-02-17, 02:25

Originally Posted by Groninger

And for the same reason I think it's possible the Y-haplogroup is one of the genetic factors that determine a man's character.

One study among males in Finland showed Y-haplogroup determines 15% of a male's genetic predisposition for alcoholism. If you look at the size of the Y chromosome (it's quite big), its high mutation rate, and the higher level of selective pressure, it's no surprise.

**Angela** · 04-02-17, 02:50

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but...

Still, men are ever vigilant to claim that size doesn't matter...:)

**Groninger** · 04-02-17, 10:57

Does the small size of the Y-chromosome prove anything at all? Does "size matter" in genetics? Again, this is all terra incognita for me but common sense tells me the influence of the Y-chromosome is extreme compared to its size because it makes the difference between male and female. Apparently a small amount of genetic information can make a huge difference. I therefore think it is a bit unreasonable to mock or even become angry about the suggestion that the Y-haplogroup is an influence on a man's looks and personality as one factor among others.

**ngc598** · 04-02-17, 13:44

Originally Posted by Angela

Still, men are ever vigilant to claim that size doesn't matter...:)

Now I'm running into your parade...
Size really doesn't matter. Experiments with mice showed that. They copied just two essential genes, the SRY and another one into another chromosome and then killed the Y-chromosome. The resulting clone developed as a normal male. I guess they didn't try to procreate this product, but otherwise there was no difference to other male mice. So in the end it really needs not much to be a male.

This is the reason why the Y-chromosome shrank so much and still has 80 percent or more junk. The essential gene(s) have to be on a separate chromosome, otherwise the sex determination can't work. But it can't shrink indefinitely, because then it would not be possible to join and separate the X and Y correctly during meiosis. And indeed the shrinkage of the Y-chromosome has diminished strongly, some researcher claim even that it has practically stopped. When we are told that the Y-chromosome develops so fast, we have to ask whether those people mean the whole genome or the essential genes, which to my knowledge don't show much difference to those on other chromosomes.

The result of the Y-evolution is that we have (very few) genes for sex determination, a bunch of genes for reproduction and various genes for cell house keeping, but the latter ones do have some important consequences on cancer related issues and neuronal function. This altering of neuronal functions may lead to behavioural expression, but primarily on dysfunction rather than normal variation of usual behaviour. So in that sense, alcoholism can be theoretically linked to the Y-chromosome, but keep in mind there are one or two women on Earth who are alcoholics as well, and they are not harmed by an altered Y-chromosome gene :)

**Expredel** · 05-02-17, 01:11

Originally Posted by Groninger

Does the small size of the Y-chromosome prove anything at all? Does "size matter" in genetics?

It depends on the definition of small. The Y chromosome makes up 2% of the human genome, but ultimately it's the number of positive mutations that matters, with the evidence suggesting this has to be higher for the Y chromosome.

As for the fun test, the odd numbered men are highly likely to be I1, and the even numbered men are highly likely to be R1b.

So Azzura was correct.

There were several possible patterns, so this suggests R1b may have a more rounded skull than I1, but nothing substantial enough to accurately predict the Y haplogroup of individuals.

**Azzurro** · 05-02-17, 02:00

Originally Posted by Expredel

It depends on the definition of small. The Y chromosome makes up 2% of the human genome, but ultimately it's the number of positive mutations that matters, with the evidence suggesting this has to be higher for the Y chromosome.

As for the fun test, the odd numbered men are highly likely to be I1, and the even numbered men are highly likely to be R1b.

So Azzura was correct.

There were several possible patterns, so this suggests R1b may have a more rounded skull than I1, but nothing substantial enough to accurately predict the Y haplogroup of individuals.

Very interesting, thanks for the shot out and the test.

**Groninger** · 05-02-17, 10:55

"Highly likely?" I was under the impression you knew for sure what group these men belonged to. But thanks anyway, it was interesting.

**gidai** · 01-02-19, 15:46

G2a is rare, but I found 15+Ötzi

G2a carriers, and I created a poll in G2a forum.
Do they have some common aura in their traits?
1.

2.

Ötzi

3.

4.

5.

The ones below are from the same page. https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/adolph-a...p-g-genealogy/
6.

7. The first and the third are G2a.

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

13.

14.

15.

**Jack0123456** · 05-03-19, 19:13

African-American comedians the Wayans Brothers are haplogroup O1a2. It was revealed on Finding Your Roots.They may be a prime examples...

**Angela** · 05-03-19, 19:21

Oh yeah?

Are these men from the Cameroons prime examples of R1b V88? :)

**Horncastle** · 08-11-22, 09:08

Maciamo accused of pseudo science. I thought he was just making an observation. Of all the photos in the thread the one I look most like is Ben Affleck and I am English so perhaps that voids Maciamo's observation. However, like Ben Affleck I am J-M319 and my observations of other J-M319s is that we all look similar. My J-M319 colleagues from the Middle East make the same observations. perhaps the best thing for us to do is just keep quiet about it.