Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

[Maciamo]

The general consensus has been that Y-chromosomal DNA only contains a few of genes relating to male fertility and does not influence the carrier's appearance, except of course for the male characteristics influenced by testosterone. I have argued before that some Y-chromosomal mutations, in the coding region, certainly play a role in male behaviour and sexual selection, considering that such mutations typically define major haplogroups or subclades. The more I compare the looks of people whose Y-DNA haplogroup I know, the more I feel like people belonging to the same haplogroup do often (but it's not always that clear) share some common looks.

I just learned today that Ben Affleck belongs to J2a1-M319, a subclade found mainly Greece and Italy, but especially in Crete. It could have been spread by the Romans to western Europe. Ben Affleck has mixed Scottish, English, Irish, German, and Swiss ancestry. Regardless of his ancestry, there is something that looks quite J2 about him.




Here are some other known J2 people. I would say that they all share a certain relatively gentle boyish look and have a face that is rather oval. These three are all Jewish, but they are very different in type from say Woody Allen or Albert Einstein.

Mike Nichols




Burt Bacharach




Matt Lauer







Another example is Swedish actor Max von Sydow, who I recently learned belongs to a Pomeranian subclade of R1a. There is only about 19% of R1a in Sweden, yet his looks screams R1a. He know a Polish guy who looks just like him.




Von Sydow has German ancestry, although that does not justify his Polish looks. Let's take two pure Swedish actors, Stellen Skarsgård and his son Gustaf. I do not know their haplogroups, but I would bet that they are R1a too. I can't explain it with words. It's just something in their expression.

Stellen Skarsgård



Gustaf Skarsgård

[Aaron1981]

The general consensus has been that Y-chromosomal DNA only contains a few of genes relating to male fertility and does not influence the carrier's appearance, except of course for the male characteristics influenced by testosterone. I have argued before that some Y-chromosomal mutations, in the coding region, certainly play a role in male behaviour and sexual selection, considering that such mutations typically define major haplogroups or subclades. The more I compare the looks of people whose Y-DNA haplogroup I know, the more I feel like people belonging to the same haplogroup do often (but it's not always that clear) share some common looks.

I just learned today that Ben Affleck belongs to J2a1-M319, a subclade found mainly Greece and Italy, but especially in Crete. He, however, has mixed Scottish, English, Irish, German, and Swiss ancestry. Not knowing his ancestry, would you rather say British-Irish or Italo-Greek? There is something that looks quite J2 about him.

Ben Affleck is extremely R1b looking to me. It looks like J2a1-M319 isn't one of the common J2 branches and may have been in western Europe an extremely long time. It's not like Affleck is a recent immigrant or anything. Most of the waspy Hollywood males look R1b to me. They all have a med-high forehead, squinty eyes, and an oval face. Typical R1b look... The Scandinavian look you don't see all the often in western Europe, is the broader face, high cheekbones, less of the oval/doughy face features that western Euro males often have. ie: Dolf Lundgren, Mads Mikkelsen..etc

[Angela]

Ben Affleck looks like a typical British Isles/German American mutt mix. I don't see anything at all Greek looking about him.

Oval faced, doughy features, squinty eyed R1b look? Really?

You mean like these Irish actors? Send um on over. :)







Or like Irish/Scottish mix Sean Connery?

[Templar]

Squinty eyes definitely do seem more common in the Northern half of Europe. Could be a borealized trait that developed as an adaptation to the cold. East Asians supposedly came to be somewhere around Siberia and they too have similar eyes. The extra fat on the upper eyelid could have provided protection from the cold or wind.

Either way, they are very kawaii on girls.

[davef]

Sorry, no offense but Ben affleck does not look "Mediterranean" (by that I mean greek or italian) at all. I would quickly guess him as Northern European in a heartbeat.

[Angela]

Do not, under any circumstances, send this guy over. :)



Or this one...the only way I'd ever cast him would be as a serial killer or the head of some nefarious international organization:


Seriously, before actors/actresses or models are cast, the people involved in the hiring do extensive testing in front of audiences. Certain looks appeal to a higher percentage of people. That's what they go with...if it's an action movie that they accept only men will go to see, they might go with a slightly different look, but generally, for male actors, they want a look women will really like and men will be ok with...

It's really as simple as that. Of course, in terms of Hollywood movies, which are the ones which make the really big not only U.S. stars but international stars, they're all tested on U.S. audiences, so that may account for any differences.

Templar: Squinty eyes definitely do seem more common in the Northern half of Europe. Could be a borealized trait that developed as an adaptation to the cold. East Asians supposedly came to be somewhere around Siberia and they too have similar eyes. The extra fat on the upper eyelid could have provided protection from the cold or wind.

Either way, they are very kawaii on girls.

I don't think that for most people attractiveness is based on one feature, like whether someone has rather small versus big eyes. I don't think the "Siberian" look is high on the attractiveness scale in the U.S. It's about the whole package. Sean Connery has rather large eyes.

So do these "heart throbs", past as well as present.

Tyrone Power:


Gregory Peck:



Marlon Brando:


James Dean


Rock Hudson


George Clooney


Nowadays, because the only people actually going to the movies are teenagers and twenty somethings the leading men are starting to look different, but that's a different issue.

[Aaron1981]

Ben Affleck looks like a typical British Isles/German American mutt mix. I don't see anything at all Greek looking about him.

Oval faced, doughy features, squinty eyed R1b look? Really?

You mean like these Irish actors? Send um on over. :)







Or like Irish/Scottish mix Sean Connery?

Angela, I agree with you completely. Doughy faced wasn't really the best adjective for me to use, but it was in contrast to the high cheekboned face of the Scandinavians. West Euros do tend to have more oval faces, only doughy if they are overweight ;) Those are definitely the R1b faces I am referring to though.

Squinty eye not the best term either, but a long slight eye socket, rather than a wide open cavity, which is more common in Middle East/South Euro. It might be the heavy brow in north-west Euro which makes it seem this way.

[Pax Augusta]

Sorry, no offense but Ben affleck does not look "Mediterranean" (by that I mean greek or italian) at all. I would quickly guess him as Northern European in a heartbeat.

Yes, but not all the Italians and Greeks look or are "Mediterranean".

[Angela]

Angela, I agree with you completely. Doughy faced wasn't really the best adjective for me to use, but it was in contrast to the high cheekboned face of the Scandinavians. West Euros do tend to have more oval faces, only doughy if they are overweight ;) Those are definitely the R1b faces I am referring to though.

Squinty eye not the best term either, but a long slight eye socket, rather than a wide open cavity, which is more common in Middle East/South Euro. It might be the heavy brow in north-west Euro which makes it seem this way.

Yes, we're on the same wavelength. As I explained in the post above, when tested in front of Americans, this scores high on attractiveness. I'm no exception. :)

I know the anthrofora world is big on calling this Atlantid, but I think in Coon? terms, it's Atlanto Med.

Those heavy facial bones that you see more of as you go east in Europe are what I think of as the "ANE" look. American Indians have it too. Or maybe it also has to do with proportionally more WHG/SHG survival?

I don't think the snps for these traits are on the yChromosome, however.

There's a definite cline in Italy in terms of eye shape and size as well, with larger eyes more frequent in the south. You can carry these things too far, though. Look at the northern European actors I posted above.

Pax Augusta:Yes, but not all the Italians and Greeks look or are "Mediterranean".

What I'm sure he meant is that there's nothing particularly Italian or Greek looking about him. You're much more likely to find those particular kinds of looks in northern Europe than in Italy, even in the north.

[Maciamo]

Ben Affleck is extremely R1b looking to me. It looks like J2a1-M319 isn't one of the common J2 branches and may have been in western Europe an extremely long time. It's not like Affleck is a recent immigrant or anything. Most of the waspy Hollywood males look R1b to me. They all have a med-high forehead, squinty eyes, and an oval face. Typical R1b look... The Scandinavian look you don't see all the often in western Europe, is the broader face, high cheekbones, less of the oval/doughy face features that western Euro males often have. ie: Dolf Lundgren, Mads Mikkelsen..etc

It's not so much the traits as the general 'feel' that is similar between those J2 people. It's things like the expression in the eyes. It's hard to explain. Usually, with a bit of international experience, it's possible to guess a person's mother tongue, or at least linguistic family of the mother tongue (e.g. Slavic, Germanic, Romance). It's not based on the person's ethnicity. It works even if a person is an immigrant to the country in question. For example, an East Asian who grew up in France (ideally adopted so as to be sure that French is their native language) will have a different facial expression from an East Asian who grew up in the UK, who will in turn be different from one who grew up in Korea. It's possible to perceive a sort of 'language aura' in one's facial expression.

I think that there is also a particular 'aura' or 'feel' for haplogroups. R1a men look more earnest and forthright. J2a men look easy-going, amiable and diplomatic/commercial. I1 people seem levelheaded and sociable. E1b1b people appear to be more passionate and relentless. Those are just my personal impressions.

[davef]

Yes, but not all the Italians and Greeks look or are "Mediterranean".

Certainly true!

And Angela, that's exactly what I meant.

[firetown]

Interesting. My dad's dad was German. And I look nothing like him. When people see however a picture of my mom's dad, they usually assume it was me posing for a 1930's look picture.

[firetown]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why women like Dolph Lundgren, George Clooney or Ben Affleck. They look so boring to me. Their eyes spell emptiness. Sure I am not the right judge in regards to what women are looking for, but I would assume that when looking for a partner in life, you want someone who looks like they have more of a soul.

[Pax Augusta]

I just learned today that Ben Affleck belongs to J2a1-M319, a subclade found mainly Greece and Italy, but especially in Crete. He, however, has mixed Scottish, English, Irish, German, and Swiss ancestry. Not knowing his ancestry, would you rather say British-Irish or Italo-Greek? There is something that looks quite J2 about him.

Pics can be deceptive or misleading, there is a long tradition of cherrypicking in most anthroforums (many anthroforums without cherrypicking would be less popular).

I'm not saying that you've cherrypicked of course, what I'm saying is that the look of many people can vary a lot in pics (beard or no beard, tan, different lighting conditions... ).

To me Ben Affleck looks like a regular British who could pass in lot of places in Europe.

[Angela]

Now, if instead of Ben Affleck, who really does have a very "soft" face, you were to talk about someone like Colin O'Donohue, you'd find many more Italians who look like him, in my opinion...





Or Hugh Jackman:


Alessio Boni:



Ed. In this last set, first picture that came up for both, btw. :)

[firetown]

The pictures you have posted are different and make him look different. The eyes are "deeper", but there is still that sense of disconnect. There is a different "vibe" you get from Celtic and Jewish people IMO. You may not be able to put it all into words, but the overall look is very different from how someone engages in terms of connecting with others and from what I have seen, the eyes are the best way to detect certain tendencies in communication. People who are of Jewish and Celtic ancestry tend to connect better ... with both themselves and others. More natural.

Pics can be deceptive or misleading, there is a long tradition of cherrypicking in most anthroforums (many anthroforums without cherrypicking would be less popular).

I'm not saying that you've cherrypicked of course, what I'm saying is that the look of many people can vary a lot in pics (beard or no beard, tan, different lighting conditions... ).

[Maleth]

Looks must be more related to an overall autosmal (including Mtdna) rather then simply Ydna. Sometimes even siblings vary to a considerable degree in both looks and character, so there cannot be just a straight forward trait in relation to Ydna.

[Goga]

The general consensus has been that Y-chromosomal DNA only contains a few of genes relating to male fertility and does not influence the carrier's appearance, except of course for the male characteristics influenced by testosterone. I have argued before that some Y-chromosomal mutations, in the coding region, certainly play a role in male behaviour and sexual selection, considering that such mutations typically define major haplogroups or subclades. The more I compare the looks of people whose Y-DNA haplogroup I know, the more I feel like people belonging to the same haplogroup do often (but it's not always that clear) share some common looks.


Another example is Swedish actor Max von Sydow, who I recently learned belongs to a Pomeranian subclade of R1a. There is only about 19% of R1a in Sweden, yet his looks screams R1a. He know a Polish guy who looks just like him.




Von Sydow has German ancestry, although that does not justify his Polish looks. Let's take two pure Swedish actors, Stellen Skarsgård and his son Gustaf. I do not know their haplogroups, but I would bet that they are R1a too. I can't explain it with words. It's just something in their expression.

Stellen Skarsgård



Gustaf Skarsgård

They do look like Y-DNA hg. I1 !!!


And are you talking about Europe, right? Because most R1a men, and I mean more than 1 billion, look like him or something...




This is now an AVERAGE modern day R1a fella looks like!

[vcovaci]

I think it is quite probale that certain Y-DNA haplogroups would come with higher or smaller levels of male hormones, or androgens. We can also think of the 2D:4D ratio that reflects the levels of sex hormones, and seems to be also heritable on the paternal line. This ratio, like haplogroups, tends to show high geographical variability. The higher the levels of androgens (especially during intrauterine development, but also in adulthood), the more "manly" the facial traits of a person are (squarer jaw, smaller eyes, an overall wider face, etc.).

[Maciamo]

Looks must be more related to an overall autosmal (including Mtdna) rather then simply Ydna. Sometimes even siblings vary to a considerable degree in both looks and character, so there cannot be just a straight forward trait in relation to Ydna.

I completely agree with that. Y-DNA may only have a minor influence on looks. Nevertheless, when we see what happens when a tiger mates with a lion, and how different the offspring look depending on which of the two is the father or the mother, it looks like the X and Y chromosomes play a considerable role in looks as well.

Here is a male and a female liger (cross between a male lion and a female tiger).








Compare it with a male tigon (cross between a male tiger and a female lion).



And a female tigon



One thing that differs clearly is the body size. What's more, tigons resemble tigers more than lions. This is especially true of female tigons. But the facial features are also quite different. The male liger, which has a lion's Y-chromosome, does have a typical lion face. The male tigon's face is neither typically lion nor tiger.

[Angela]

Sorry, gentlemen, both looks and personality are probably dependent on hundreds if not thousands and tens of thousands of different snps, and those snps don't reside on the y chromosome.

The most that I would say as to correspondences is that certain looks and maybe personality traits may be more common in some areas than others, and those areas may have more of one y dna lineage than another, but that doesn't imply "causation" in the sense that something in the y is causing someone to have narrow versus round eyes, for example.

Mike Damman: For the life of me, I cannot understand why women like Dolph Lundgren, George Clooney or Ben Affleck. They look so boring to me. Their eyes spell emptiness. Sure I am not the right judge in regards to what women are looking for, but I would assume that when looking for a partner in life, you want someone who looks like they have more of a soul.

You've got three totally different looking men there. I don't know what their souls are like. What I can say about their looks is that Ben Affleck is soft and, indeed, rather boring looking to me personally. He is very popular, though. I think George Clooney is very good looking, and seems to be, by all accounts, charming and funny, but no, I don't think he's very unique looking. Lundgren is just ugly to me, far too hard faced, and while tastes differ, I don't think he would appeal to most American women.

[Goga]

Indian population = 1,330,390,000

http://www.worldometers.info/world-p...ia-population/


Swedish population = 9,868,300

http://www.worldometers.info/world-p...en-population/


In India live just now 135 times more people than in Sweden !



16 % of Swedih males is R1a = ( 9,868,300 / 2 ) X .16 = 789,464 . Less than 1 million Swedish men are R1a.

India

Let say in India are 40% of males are R1a. It is my LOWEST prediciton of R1a in India. There could be at least 50%. But let say it is 40%.

( 1,330,390,000 / 2 ) X .4 = 266,078,000 !

In India belong at least 266 million to Y-DNA hg. R1a.


And now tell me again how a modern day average R1a fella looks like ??!! Exactly, he looks South Asian!

[Goga]

Maciamo, since when are you into PSEUDO science? This is one of the very few times that you disappoint me...

[Milan]

Uh,then i always wondered why i took physical traits much more of my mother side than my father in comparison,much more traits i carry are trough male lineage of my mother side,weird?then little less from father side,yet i cary Y-DNA from my father.

[Maciamo]

They do look like Y-DNA hg. I1 !!!

And are you talking about Europe, right? Because most R1a men, and I mean more than 1 billion, look like him or something...



This is now an AVERAGE modern day R1a fella looks like!

That's because you think of autosomal looks linked to an ethnic group with a majority of one Y-haplogroup. I am talking about the cross-ethnic feel common among all members of a same haplogroup. When I say that R1a men look more earnest, that applies to Scandinavians, Slavs, Greeks, Jews, Kurds, Persians and Indians alike. You should do abstraction of the autosomal looks such as pigmentation and racial differences.