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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Question Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

    The general consensus has been that Y-chromosomal DNA only contains a few of genes relating to male fertility and does not influence the carrier's appearance, except of course for the male characteristics influenced by testosterone. I have argued before that some Y-chromosomal mutations, in the coding region, certainly play a role in male behaviour and sexual selection, considering that such mutations typically define major haplogroups or subclades. The more I compare the looks of people whose Y-DNA haplogroup I know, the more I feel like people belonging to the same haplogroup do often (but it's not always that clear) share some common looks.

    I just learned today that Ben Affleck belongs to J2a1-M319, a subclade found mainly Greece and Italy, but especially in Crete. It could have been spread by the Romans to western Europe. Ben Affleck has mixed Scottish, English, Irish, German, and Swiss ancestry. Regardless of his ancestry, there is something that looks quite J2 about him.




    Here are some other known J2 people. I would say that they all share a certain relatively gentle boyish look and have a face that is rather oval. These three are all Jewish, but they are very different in type from say Woody Allen or Albert Einstein.

    Mike Nichols




    Burt Bacharach




    Matt Lauer







    Another example is Swedish actor Max von Sydow, who I recently learned belongs to a Pomeranian subclade of R1a. There is only about 19% of R1a in Sweden, yet his looks screams R1a. He know a Polish guy who looks just like him.




    Von Sydow has German ancestry, although that does not justify his Polish looks. Let's take two pure Swedish actors, Stellen Skarsgård and his son Gustaf. I do not know their haplogroups, but I would bet that they are R1a too. I can't explain it with words. It's just something in their expression.

    Stellen Skarsgård



    Gustaf Skarsgård

    Last edited by Maciamo; 20-09-16 at 22:32.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The general consensus has been that Y-chromosomal DNA only contains a few of genes relating to male fertility and does not influence the carrier's appearance, except of course for the male characteristics influenced by testosterone. I have argued before that some Y-chromosomal mutations, in the coding region, certainly play a role in male behaviour and sexual selection, considering that such mutations typically define major haplogroups or subclades. The more I compare the looks of people whose Y-DNA haplogroup I know, the more I feel like people belonging to the same haplogroup do often (but it's not always that clear) share some common looks.

    I just learned today that Ben Affleck belongs to J2a1-M319, a subclade found mainly Greece and Italy, but especially in Crete. He, however, has mixed Scottish, English, Irish, German, and Swiss ancestry. Not knowing his ancestry, would you rather say British-Irish or Italo-Greek? There is something that looks quite J2 about him.




    Ben Affleck is extremely R1b looking to me. It looks like J2a1-M319 isn't one of the common J2 branches and may have been in western Europe an extremely long time. It's not like Affleck is a recent immigrant or anything. Most of the waspy Hollywood males look R1b to me. They all have a med-high forehead, squinty eyes, and an oval face. Typical R1b look... The Scandinavian look you don't see all the often in western Europe, is the broader face, high cheekbones, less of the oval/doughy face features that western Euro males often have. ie: Dolf Lundgren, Mads Mikkelsen..etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Ben Affleck is extremely R1b looking to me. It looks like J2a1-M319 isn't one of the common J2 branches and may have been in western Europe an extremely long time. It's not like Affleck is a recent immigrant or anything. Most of the waspy Hollywood males look R1b to me. They all have a med-high forehead, squinty eyes, and an oval face. Typical R1b look... The Scandinavian look you don't see all the often in western Europe, is the broader face, high cheekbones, less of the oval/doughy face features that western Euro males often have. ie: Dolf Lundgren, Mads Mikkelsen..etc
    It's not so much the traits as the general 'feel' that is similar between those J2 people. It's things like the expression in the eyes. It's hard to explain. Usually, with a bit of international experience, it's possible to guess a person's mother tongue, or at least linguistic family of the mother tongue (e.g. Slavic, Germanic, Romance). It's not based on the person's ethnicity. It works even if a person is an immigrant to the country in question. For example, an East Asian who grew up in France (ideally adopted so as to be sure that French is their native language) will have a different facial expression from an East Asian who grew up in the UK, who will in turn be different from one who grew up in Korea. It's possible to perceive a sort of 'language aura' in one's facial expression.

    I think that there is also a particular 'aura' or 'feel' for haplogroups. R1a men look more earnest and forthright. J2a men look easy-going, amiable and diplomatic/commercial. I1 people seem levelheaded and sociable. E1b1b people appear to be more passionate and relentless. Those are just my personal impressions.

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    For the life of me, I cannot understand why women like Dolph Lundgren, George Clooney or Ben Affleck. They look so boring to me. Their eyes spell emptiness. Sure I am not the right judge in regards to what women are looking for, but I would assume that when looking for a partner in life, you want someone who looks like they have more of a soul.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's not so much the traits as the general 'feel' that is similar between those J2 people. It's things like the expression in the eyes. It's hard to explain. Usually, with a bit of international experience, it's possible to guess a person's mother tongue, or at least linguistic family of the mother tongue (e.g. Slavic, Germanic, Romance). It's not based on the person's ethnicity. It works even if a person is an immigrant to the country in question. For example, an East Asian who grew up in France (ideally adopted so as to be sure that French is their native language) will have a different facial expression from an East Asian who grew up in the UK, who will in turn be different from one who grew up in Korea. It's possible to perceive a sort of 'language aura' in one's facial expression.

    I think that there is also a particular 'aura' or 'feel' for haplogroups. R1a men look more earnest and forthright. J2a men look easy-going, amiable and diplomatic/commercial. I1 people seem levelheaded and sociable. E1b1b people appear to be more passionate and relentless. Those are just my personal impressions.
    @maciamo I doubt if y DNA has that kind of influence, you can take my family as an example, until now in Netherlands above the Rhine there are only two family cases of E-V22 (= original Egyptian YDNA), both most probably linked with the soldiers of the Spanish army during the Dutch liberation war. In my family case with the Battle of Boksum 1586. Afterwards this is always mingled with non Egyptian or Mediterranean Mt DNA, but I doubt it if this Y DNA until know has resulted in an Egyptian "look and feel" or aura as you called it.....or am I wrong.....?
















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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    @maciamo I doubt if y DNA has that kind of influence, you can take my family as an example, until now in Netherlands above the Rhine there are only two family cases of E-V22 (= original Egyptian YDNA), both most probably linked with the soldiers of the Spanish army during the Dutch liberation war. In my family case with the Battle of Boksum 1586. Afterwards this is always mingled with non Egyptian or Mediterranean Mt DNA, but I doubt it if this Y DNA until know has resulted in an Egyptian "look and feel" or aura as you called it.....or am I wrong.....?
    I see that you did not understand at all what I meant. I mean not even one bit. I don't know if it's because I failed to express myself correctly or because it's the kind of topic where people come with their preconceived ideas and just think A when I say B, no matter how many times I say it's B, just because there is no concept for B in their mind yet.


    I wrote in several posts above (#50, #52) that Y-DNA's influence, be it on phenotype or fertility, varies because of special mutations (or insertions/deletions) that affect Y-chromosomal genes. I explained that 99% of Y-DNA SNP's are silent mutations that do not alter at all gene function, and that only a few polymorphisms seem to have had enough impact to have been selected by evolution. I wrote a full article on this, which I linked twice from this thread. Have you even read it? Because if you haven't it's like discussing a new paper and not even checking the paper in question.


    In short, as far as I have been able to establish from my research in the thread on Y-chromosomal polymorphisms, there is probably no phenotypical difference between any E1b1b subclade, be it V22, V13, M81 or M34, because the only gene-altering polymorphisms in E1b1b define haplogroups DE, E and E1b1b. Some gene-altering polymorphisms may only affect fertility. At present I have no way of knowing for sure which of these evolutionarily important polymorphisms affected fertility vs phenotype, or both.


    Nevertheless, I have met enough people over the years whose Y-DNA is known to me, and seen many more pictures of famous haplogroup members, to realise that I could guess at least if someone belonged to haplogroup R, E, J or G-I (it's harder to tell G and I apart). I have guessed a few times right. I obviously can't tell the subclade, and I shouldn't be able since 99.9% of all subclades are defined by silent mutations with no phenotypic effect.


    I am shocked to read that you would think that I believe that members of haplogroup E-V22 have an Egyptian feel, when haplogroup E has such a wide geographic distribution. I have tried to explain that Y-DNA could simply influence the way the body and mind masculinises at puberty. This may be through something visible like a stronger nose and jaw, or a behavioural phenotype that could increased one's chances of reproduction, like heightened charm/smooh-talking (a trait which I found more common among J2a men), heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation (E and R1a), increased sense of honour (surprisingly common in populations with lots of E1b1b), etc. It's very difficult to define common traits between haplogroup members because Y-DNA only has a minor effect on looks and behaviour compared to other chromosomes, and other genes as well as upbringing, culture and life experiences may also override any trait. So ideally we should look at trends within people from a same country, culure and ethnic group.

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    Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I see that you did not understand at all what I meant. I mean not even one bit. I don't know if it's because I failed to express myself correctly or because it's the kind of topic where people come with their preconceived ideas and just think A when I say B, no matter how many times I say it's B, just because there is no concept for B in their mind yet.


    I wrote in several posts above (#50, #52) that Y-DNA's influence, be it on phenotype or fertility, varies because of special mutations (or insertions/deletions) that affect Y-chromosomal genes. I explained that 99% of Y-DNA SNP's are silent mutations that do not alter at all gene function, and that only a few polymorphisms seem to have had enough impact to have been selected by evolution. I wrote a full article on this, which I linked twice from this thread. Have you even read it? Because if you haven't it's like discussing a new paper and not even checking the paper in question.


    In short, as far as I have been able to establish from my research in the thread on Y-chromosomal polymorphisms, there is probably no phenotypical difference between any E1b1b subclade, be it V22, V13, M81 or M34, because the only gene-altering polymorphisms in E1b1b define haplogroups DE, E and E1b1b. Some gene-altering polymorphisms may only affect fertility. At present I have no way of knowing for sure which of these evolutionarily important polymorphisms affected fertility vs phenotype, or both.


    Nevertheless, I have met enough people over the years whose Y-DNA is known to me, and seen many more pictures of famous haplogroup members, to realise that I could guess at least if someone belonged to haplogroup R, E, J or G-I (it's harder to tell G and I apart). I have guessed a few times right. I obviously can't tell the subclade, and I shouldn't be able since 99.9% of all subclades are defined by silent mutations with no phenotypic effect.


    I am shocked to read that you would think that I believe that members of haplogroup E-V22 have an Egyptian feel, when haplogroup E has such a wide geographic distribution. I have tried to explain that Y-DNA could simply influence the way the body and mind masculinises at puberty. This may be through something visible like a stronger nose and jaw, or a behavioural phenotype that could increased one's chances of reproduction, like heightened charm/smooh-talking (a trait which I found more common among J2a men), heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation (E and R1a), increased sense of honour (surprisingly common in populations with lots of E1b1b), etc. It's very difficult to define common traits between haplogroup members because Y-DNA only has a minor effect on looks and behaviour compared to other chromosomes, and other genes as well as upbringing, culture and life experiences may also override any trait. So ideally we should look at trends within people from a same country, culure and ethnic group.
    Thanks for the reply and explanations! The basic thing is that I think you overestimate the influence of Y-DNA. Especially when you speak about: "I think that there is also a particular 'aura' or 'feel' for haplogroups." I think that's more nurture than nature. You make it almost supernatural. I doubt that....nothing more nothing less.

    And speaking about character issues like " heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation... increased sense of honour" there are besides the environment al lot more genes at stake....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Ben Affleck is extremely R1b looking to me. It looks like J2a1-M319 isn't one of the common J2 branches and may have been in western Europe an extremely long time. It's not like Affleck is a recent immigrant or anything. Most of the waspy Hollywood males look R1b to me. They all have a med-high forehead, squinty eyes, and an oval face. Typical R1b look... The Scandinavian look you don't see all the often in western Europe, is the broader face, high cheekbones, less of the oval/doughy face features that western Euro males often have. ie: Dolf Lundgren, Mads Mikkelsen..etc


    There is a reason why y and mtDNA are highlighted in our DNA, if they had no use I doubt they would be highlighted.

    People of the same ethnicity will often look more similar to people of completely different aDNA. But the point is the yDNA does give some charactersitics that is seen throughout different ethnicities.
    Last edited by Alan; 10-10-16 at 03:12.

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    Ben Affleck looks like a typical British Isles/German American mutt mix. I don't see anything at all Greek looking about him.

    Oval faced, doughy features, squinty eyed R1b look? Really?

    You mean like these Irish actors? Send um on over. :)







    Or like Irish/Scottish mix Sean Connery?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ben Affleck looks like a typical British Isles/German American mutt mix. I don't see anything at all Greek looking about him.

    Oval faced, doughy features, squinty eyed R1b look? Really?

    You mean like these Irish actors? Send um on over. :)







    Or like Irish/Scottish mix Sean Connery?

    Angela, I agree with you completely. Doughy faced wasn't really the best adjective for me to use, but it was in contrast to the high cheekboned face of the Scandinavians. West Euros do tend to have more oval faces, only doughy if they are overweight ;) Those are definitely the R1b faces I am referring to though.

    Squinty eye not the best term either, but a long slight eye socket, rather than a wide open cavity, which is more common in Middle East/South Euro. It might be the heavy brow in north-west Euro which makes it seem this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Angela, I agree with you completely. Doughy faced wasn't really the best adjective for me to use, but it was in contrast to the high cheekboned face of the Scandinavians. West Euros do tend to have more oval faces, only doughy if they are overweight ;) Those are definitely the R1b faces I am referring to though.

    Squinty eye not the best term either, but a long slight eye socket, rather than a wide open cavity, which is more common in Middle East/South Euro. It might be the heavy brow in north-west Euro which makes it seem this way.
    Yes, we're on the same wavelength. As I explained in the post above, when tested in front of Americans, this scores high on attractiveness. I'm no exception. :)

    I know the anthrofora world is big on calling this Atlantid, but I think in Coon? terms, it's Atlanto Med.

    Those heavy facial bones that you see more of as you go east in Europe are what I think of as the "ANE" look. American Indians have it too. Or maybe it also has to do with proportionally more WHG/SHG survival?

    I don't think the snps for these traits are on the yChromosome, however.

    There's a definite cline in Italy in terms of eye shape and size as well, with larger eyes more frequent in the south. You can carry these things too far, though. Look at the northern European actors I posted above.

    Pax Augusta:Yes, but not all the Italians and Greeks look or are "Mediterranean".
    What I'm sure he meant is that there's nothing particularly Italian or Greek looking about him. You're much more likely to find those particular kinds of looks in northern Europe than in Italy, even in the north.

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    Squinty eyes definitely do seem more common in the Northern half of Europe. Could be a borealized trait that developed as an adaptation to the cold. East Asians supposedly came to be somewhere around Siberia and they too have similar eyes. The extra fat on the upper eyelid could have provided protection from the cold or wind.

    Either way, they are very kawaii on girls.

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    Sorry, no offense but Ben affleck does not look "Mediterranean" (by that I mean greek or italian) at all. I would quickly guess him as Northern European in a heartbeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Sorry, no offense but Ben affleck does not look "Mediterranean" (by that I mean greek or italian) at all. I would quickly guess him as Northern European in a heartbeat.
    Yes, but not all the Italians and Greeks look or are "Mediterranean".

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    Do not, under any circumstances, send this guy over. :)



    Or this one...the only way I'd ever cast him would be as a serial killer or the head of some nefarious international organization:


    Seriously, before actors/actresses or models are cast, the people involved in the hiring do extensive testing in front of audiences. Certain looks appeal to a higher percentage of people. That's what they go with...if it's an action movie that they accept only men will go to see, they might go with a slightly different look, but generally, for male actors, they want a look women will really like and men will be ok with...

    It's really as simple as that. Of course, in terms of Hollywood movies, which are the ones which make the really big not only U.S. stars but international stars, they're all tested on U.S. audiences, so that may account for any differences.

    Templar: Squinty eyes definitely do seem more common in the Northern half of Europe. Could be a borealized trait that developed as an adaptation to the cold. East Asians supposedly came to be somewhere around Siberia and they too have similar eyes. The extra fat on the upper eyelid could have provided protection from the cold or wind.

    Either way, they are very kawaii on girls.
    I don't think that for most people attractiveness is based on one feature, like whether someone has rather small versus big eyes. I don't think the "Siberian" look is high on the attractiveness scale in the U.S. It's about the whole package. Sean Connery has rather large eyes.

    So do these "heart throbs", past as well as present.

    Tyrone Power:


    Gregory Peck:



    Marlon Brando:


    James Dean


    Rock Hudson


    George Clooney


    Nowadays, because the only people actually going to the movies are teenagers and twenty somethings the leading men are starting to look different, but that's a different issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Yes, but not all the Italians and Greeks look or are "Mediterranean".
    Certainly true!

    And Angela, that's exactly what I meant.

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    Interesting. My dad's dad was German. And I look nothing like him. When people see however a picture of my mom's dad, they usually assume it was me posing for a 1930's look picture.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I just learned today that Ben Affleck belongs to J2a1-M319, a subclade found mainly Greece and Italy, but especially in Crete. He, however, has mixed Scottish, English, Irish, German, and Swiss ancestry. Not knowing his ancestry, would you rather say British-Irish or Italo-Greek? There is something that looks quite J2 about him.


    Pics can be deceptive or misleading, there is a long tradition of cherrypicking in most anthroforums (many anthroforums without cherrypicking would be less popular).

    I'm not saying that you've cherrypicked of course, what I'm saying is that the look of many people can vary a lot in pics (beard or no beard, tan, different lighting conditions... ).

    To me Ben Affleck looks like a regular British who could pass in lot of places in Europe.













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    The pictures you have posted are different and make him look different. The eyes are "deeper", but there is still that sense of disconnect. There is a different "vibe" you get from Celtic and Jewish people IMO. You may not be able to put it all into words, but the overall look is very different from how someone engages in terms of connecting with others and from what I have seen, the eyes are the best way to detect certain tendencies in communication. People who are of Jewish and Celtic ancestry tend to connect better ... with both themselves and others. More natural.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Pics can be deceptive or misleading, there is a long tradition of cherrypicking in most anthroforums (many anthroforums without cherrypicking would be less popular).

    I'm not saying that you've cherrypicked of course, what I'm saying is that the look of many people can vary a lot in pics (beard or no beard, tan, different lighting conditions... ).













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    Now, if instead of Ben Affleck, who really does have a very "soft" face, you were to talk about someone like Colin O'Donohue, you'd find many more Italians who look like him, in my opinion...





    Or Hugh Jackman:


    Alessio Boni:



    Ed. In this last set, first picture that came up for both, btw. :)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Looks must be more related to an overall autosmal (including Mtdna) rather then simply Ydna. Sometimes even siblings vary to a considerable degree in both looks and character, so there cannot be just a straight forward trait in relation to Ydna.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Looks must be more related to an overall autosmal (including Mtdna) rather then simply Ydna. Sometimes even siblings vary to a considerable degree in both looks and character, so there cannot be just a straight forward trait in relation to Ydna.
    I completely agree with that. Y-DNA may only have a minor influence on looks. Nevertheless, when we see what happens when a tiger mates with a lion, and how different the offspring look depending on which of the two is the father or the mother, it looks like the X and Y chromosomes play a considerable role in looks as well.

    Here is a male and a female liger (cross between a male lion and a female tiger).








    Compare it with a male tigon (cross between a male tiger and a female lion).



    And a female tigon



    One thing that differs clearly is the body size. What's more, tigons resemble tigers more than lions. This is especially true of female tigons. But the facial features are also quite different. The male liger, which has a lion's Y-chromosome, does have a typical lion face. The male tigon's face is neither typically lion nor tiger.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The general consensus has been that Y-chromosomal DNA only contains a few of genes relating to male fertility and does not influence the carrier's appearance, except of course for the male characteristics influenced by testosterone. I have argued before that some Y-chromosomal mutations, in the coding region, certainly play a role in male behaviour and sexual selection, considering that such mutations typically define major haplogroups or subclades. The more I compare the looks of people whose Y-DNA haplogroup I know, the more I feel like people belonging to the same haplogroup do often (but it's not always that clear) share some common looks.


    Another example is Swedish actor Max von Sydow, who I recently learned belongs to a Pomeranian subclade of R1a. There is only about 19% of R1a in Sweden, yet his looks screams R1a. He know a Polish guy who looks just like him.




    Von Sydow has German ancestry, although that does not justify his Polish looks. Let's take two pure Swedish actors, Stellen Skarsgård and his son Gustaf. I do not know their haplogroups, but I would bet that they are R1a too. I can't explain it with words. It's just something in their expression.

    Stellen Skarsgård



    Gustaf Skarsgård

    They do look like Y-DNA hg. I1 !!!


    And are you talking about Europe, right? Because most R1a men, and I mean more than 1 billion, look like him or something...




    This is now an AVERAGE modern day R1a fella looks like!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    They do look like Y-DNA hg. I1 !!!

    And are you talking about Europe, right? Because most R1a men, and I mean more than 1 billion, look like him or something...



    This is now an AVERAGE modern day R1a fella looks like!

    That's because you think of autosomal looks linked to an ethnic group with a majority of one Y-haplogroup. I am talking about the cross-ethnic feel common among all members of a same haplogroup. When I say that R1a men look more earnest, that applies to Scandinavians, Slavs, Greeks, Jews, Kurds, Persians and Indians alike. You should do abstraction of the autosomal looks such as pigmentation and racial differences.

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    I’m guessing this another of those fantasy theories circulating.

    It was suggested before that R1b men introduced social hierarchy to wherever they went, unitl FACTS disproved otherwise – the discovery of a cemetery in Varna containing individuals characterized with different materials, suggesting that there were already hierarchy societies in Europe before the coming of R1b males.

    Secondly, this theory, if it is one, is entirely based on ones’s ‘feel’. This ‘feel’ or ‘aura’ is entirely subjective, and therefore different to each person’s perception. Since it’s lacking any objectivity, it’s impossible to be generaly applied.

    I also expected more from the forum’s administrator, and until facts prove otherwise, I’m restricting haplogroups’ purposes merely to ancestry and migration.

    (Not to say that the exemples provided for J2 men were all of the same nationality…)

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