Does Y-DNA influence one's looks after all?

I have reflected over the comments posted in this thread. It is extremely important to understand that when I say that Y-DNA could influence one's physical appearance:

1) It is a very minor influence that has mostly to do with how a boy turns into a man at puberty. Autosomal DNA is still the most important for overall appearance.

2) Differences in looks between Y-DNA haplogroups should be greater between very different haplogroups (number of different SNPs), and especially if mutations occur in coding genes. Actually there may not be much difference between subclades of a same haplogroup, or even between haplogroups such as I1 and I2, if there is no change in the coding region.

3) If Y-DNA produces visible physical changes at puberty, these will be most obvious between members of a same ethnic group than between ethnic groups. For example, it may be possible to guess which Jewish man belongs to J2, as opposed to R1a, but it may not be possible to use these same clues for other ethnic groups because of the big differences in autosomal DNA that interfere with overall appearance. So there is no way that a Chinese N1c will look anywhere close to a Europe N1c ! I can't believe I have to explain that, but reading the comments I really feel like I have to explain every thing, even the obvious. A Chinese N1c might look a bit different from a Chinese C3 or O3. A Finnish N1c might be distinguishable from a Finnish I1 or R1a. But never will the Finnish N1c look like anything like a Chinese N1c ! And even within a certain ethnic group, the physical differences attributable to Y-DNA may not be discernible by people who aren't used to carefully analyse and compare facial features.
 
The general consensus has been that Y-chromosomal DNA only contains a few of genes relating to male fertility and does not influence the carrier's appearance, except of course for the male characteristics influenced by testosterone. I have argued before that some Y-chromosomal mutations, in the coding region, certainly play a role in male behaviour and sexual selection, considering that such mutations typically define major haplogroups or subclades. The more I compare the looks of people whose Y-DNA haplogroup I know, the more I feel like people belonging to the same haplogroup do often (but it's not always that clear) share some common looks.

I just learned today that Ben Affleck belongs to J2a1-M319, a subclade found mainly Greece and Italy, but especially in Crete. It could have been spread by the Romans to western Europe. Ben Affleck has mixed Scottish, English, Irish, German, and Swiss ancestry. Regardless of his ancestry, there is something that looks quite J2 about him.

220px-Ben_Affleck_by_Gage_Skidmore.jpg



Here are some other known J2 people. I would say that they all share a certain relatively gentle boyish look and have a face that is rather oval. These three are all Jewish, but they are very different in type from say Woody Allen or Albert Einstein.

Mike Nichols

220px-Still_portrait_Mike_Nichols.jpg



Burt Bacharach

250px-Burt_Bacharach_1972.JPG



Matt Lauer

220px-Matt_Lauer_2012_Shankbone_2.JPG






Another example is Swedish actor Max von Sydow, who I recently learned belongs to a Pomeranian subclade of R1a. There is only about 19% of R1a in Sweden, yet his looks screams R1a. He know a Polish guy who looks just like him.

Max_von_Sydow_Cannes.jpg



Von Sydow has German ancestry, although that does not justify his Polish looks. Let's take two pure Swedish actors, Stellen Skarsgård and his son Gustaf. I do not know their haplogroups, but I would bet that they are R1a too. I can't explain it with words. It's just something in their expression.

Stellen Skarsgård

1024px-Stellan_Skarsg%C3%A5rd_1.JPG


Gustaf Skarsgård

180px-Gustaf_Skarsg%C3%A5rd_2013_%28cropped%29.jpg
Indeed I have had this feeling for long and also mentioned it, I also know that you did argue with this for long. yDNA and mtDNA(for females) does influence the look and some characteristics of people. Also there is difference between the various subclades of a Haplogroup. For example East European R1a (mostly z280)
do have their own characteristic look in comparison to Indo_Iranic Z93 or even North European Z284.

However there are still characteristics which are typically R1a no matter which subclade. If I compare my Polish friends behave to mine sometimes.

For example Jewish R1a people no matter how light they are scream more Indo_Iranian than Slavic to me. Funny thing is there was some time ago an article that scientist now can reproduce facial and cranial features based on some SNPs and interestingly the Scythian R1a z93 appeared like South Europeans based on cranial than modern East Europeans.
 
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Ben Affleck is extremely R1b looking to me. It looks like J2a1-M319 isn't one of the common J2 branches and may have been in western Europe an extremely long time. It's not like Affleck is a recent immigrant or anything. Most of the waspy Hollywood males look R1b to me. They all have a med-high forehead, squinty eyes, and an oval face. Typical R1b look... The Scandinavian look you don't see all the often in western Europe, is the broader face, high cheekbones, less of the oval/doughy face features that western Euro males often have. ie: Dolf Lundgren, Mads Mikkelsen..etc



There is a reason why y and mtDNA are highlighted in our DNA, if they had no use I doubt they would be highlighted.

People of the same ethnicity will often look more similar to people of completely different aDNA. But the point is the yDNA does give some charactersitics that is seen throughout different ethnicities.
 
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I always thought Netanyahu looked somewhere between Spaniard and Middle Eastern. I would have thought R1b or J2. The R1a-Z93 is a surprise...

You will notice though, the South Asian skull shape and features are similar to a European on many levels with the exception of the dark skin. That is probably why South Asians and Europeans were thought to be of the same racial type by those early anthropologists.


Were there any famous R1b men on the show this season?

The original J2 look.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdoğan
http://arthistoryworlds.org/sculpture-from-sumer/

A very handsome variation of what ancient Celtic men probably looked like in modern form. Notice substantial EEF ancestry picked up in Central and SW Europe in traditional Celtic territory. (perhaps from mtDNA H women)
https://wallpaperscraft.com/tag/kit harington

I always was convinced he is z93 because he has even more the Iranic look than Middle Eastern. He doesn't look the slightest Spaniard or Levantine to me imo.


Some typical Z93 facial features are this to me.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGjh_hGUkAALD3T.jpg:small

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5292/5561497850_c1f42f470a.jpg

https://ellengeerlings.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/portret.jpg

http://www.hpg-sehit.com/wene/sehit_kunyeleri/2009/celal_abdulgani_ayar.jpg

http://tracara.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Burak-bali-Beg.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6085/6123897680_894dbd5b06_b.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pgYnnBSRyQM/UA6xnFOSFHI/AAAAAAAAE4Q/uplYYbcImi0/s1600/kurdish-guys.jpg


A strong Characteristic I have noticed among R1a (especially z93 ) are elve like ears which lean towards outside at the top.

Erdogan looks absolutely nothing like a J2, more like a R1a(rather z280)
 
Maciamo here is another one with yDNA J2a

Dr Oz
11566a1dc4db6a12df277eae269044895249a7b6.jpg
 
Maciamo here is another one with yDNA J2a

Dr Oz
11566a1dc4db6a12df277eae269044895249a7b6.jpg

Thanks, but he was already in the list of famous people on the Haplogroup J2 page. I didn't add the picture as he is a minor celebrity (practically unknown outside the US). I don't add minor celebrities to the Famous Y-DNA members page as it would be too long (millions of potential members over the years).
 
I always was convinced he is z93 because he has even more the Iranic look than Middle Eastern. He doesn't look the slightest Spaniard or Levantine to me imo.


Some typical Z93 facial features are this to me.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGjh_hGUkAALD3T.jpg:small

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5292/5561497850_c1f42f470a.jpg

https://ellengeerlings.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/portret.jpg

http://www.hpg-sehit.com/wene/sehit_kunyeleri/2009/celal_abdulgani_ayar.jpg

http://tracara.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Burak-bali-Beg.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6085/6123897680_894dbd5b06_b.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pgYnnBSRyQM/UA6xnFOSFHI/AAAAAAAAE4Q/uplYYbcImi0/s1600/kurdish-guys.jpg


A strong Characteristic I have noticed among R1a (especially z93 ) are elve like ears which lean towards outside at the top.

Erdogan looks absolutely nothing like a J2, more like a R1a(rather z280)

Alan, thanks for posting the pics, I have to disagree with Erogdan, I find he looks J2a if anything, one thing I noticed from the pics you posted are that R-Z93 have similar features to J2a particularly the large forehead which for me was a trend I noticed for J2a individuals, also having an oval hairline/head shape for J2a, it seems that even R-Z93 men show a tendency to carry these features as well, this is all theory of course.
 
Alan, thanks for posting the pics, I have to disagree with Erogdan, I find he looks J2a if anything, one thing I noticed from the pics you posted are that R-Z93 have similar features to J2a particularly the large forehead which for me was a trend I noticed for J2a individuals, also having an oval hairline/head shape for J2a, it seems that even R-Z93 men show a tendency to carry these features as well, this is all theory of course.

Well let's agree to disagree but look at Erdogan, he look much more similar to Netanyahu don't you think, his hairline, forhead and general facial features.

The reason why J2a and R1a z93 look often very similar is imo, because these are the two Haplogroups which merged most often and earliest after z93 evolved. The very first thing that happened and which actually brought the Indo_Iranian tribes into existence is that R and J merged. Even R1b m343/L23 can look often similar.

Let's be clear almost every moden Indo_Iranian group has at least these two Haplogroups R1a z93 and J. From South_Central Asia to West Asia. Even the ancient Indo_Iranians from the Steppes did have these both most often (exception the Alans who were more R1a and G2a heavy). Sarmatians were J and R1a, Among Scythian remains we have R1a and J2a. Iron Age Iranians and Savavid era once had J2a and R1a z93.

No wonder J2 and R1a z93 look similar in features. The hairline is one of the least similarities imo. Otherwise there are many similarities.
 
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Well let's agree to disagree but look at Erdogan, he look much more similar to Netanyahu don't you think, his hairline, forhead and general facial features.

The reason why J2a and R1a z93 look often very similar is imo, because these are the two Haplogroups which merged most often and earliest after z93 evolved. The very first thing that happened and which actually brought the Indo_Iranian tribes into existence is that R and J merged. Even R1b m343/L23 look very often similar to these two.

Let's be clear almost every moden Indo_Iranian group has at least these two Haplogroups R1a z93 and J. From South_Central Asia to West Asia. Even the ancient Indo_Iranians from the Steppes did have these both most often (exception the Alans who were more R1a and G2a heavy). Sarmatians were J and R1a, Among Scythian remains we have R1a and J2a. Iron Age Iranians and Savavid era once had J2a and R1a z93.

No wonder J2 and R1a z93 look similar in features. The hairline is one of the least similarities imo. Otherwise there are many similarities.

I agree with you on that one, I thought Netanyahu would have been J2a before this information, but yes Erogdan doesn't have the typical J2a facial features, I guess he would have to test who knows he might even get another clade.

I always suspected the same thing that J2 and R1a merged in the past, it makes sense and the information you persent seems very solid, thanks for the analogy, what other features would you say are consistent with the two and R-L23? You think that maybe even T-M70 might be in this merged group?
 
It's not so much the traits as the general 'feel' that is similar between those J2 people. It's things like the expression in the eyes. It's hard to explain. Usually, with a bit of international experience, it's possible to guess a person's mother tongue, or at least linguistic family of the mother tongue (e.g. Slavic, Germanic, Romance). It's not based on the person's ethnicity. It works even if a person is an immigrant to the country in question. For example, an East Asian who grew up in France (ideally adopted so as to be sure that French is their native language) will have a different facial expression from an East Asian who grew up in the UK, who will in turn be different from one who grew up in Korea. It's possible to perceive a sort of 'language aura' in one's facial expression.

I think that there is also a particular 'aura' or 'feel' for haplogroups. R1a men look more earnest and forthright. J2a men look easy-going, amiable and diplomatic/commercial. I1 people seem levelheaded and sociable. E1b1b people appear to be more passionate and relentless. Those are just my personal impressions.

@maciamo I doubt if y DNA has that kind of influence, you can take my family as an example, until now in Netherlands above the Rhine there are only two family cases of E-V22 (= original Egyptian YDNA), both most probably linked with the soldiers of the Spanish army during the Dutch liberation war. In my family case with the Battle of Boksum 1586. Afterwards this is always mingled with non Egyptian or Mediterranean Mt DNA, but I doubt it if this Y DNA until know has resulted in an Egyptian "look and feel" or aura as you called it.....or am I wrong.....?
















Spanis


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@maciamo I doubt if y DNA has that kind of influence, you can take my family as an example, until now in Netherlands above the Rhine there are only two family cases of E-V22 (= original Egyptian YDNA), both most probably linked with the soldiers of the Spanish army during the Dutch liberation war. In my family case with the Battle of Boksum 1586. Afterwards this is always mingled with non Egyptian or Mediterranean Mt DNA, but I doubt it if this Y DNA until know has resulted in an Egyptian "look and feel" or aura as you called it.....or am I wrong.....?

I see that you did not understand at all what I meant. I mean not even one bit. I don't know if it's because I failed to express myself correctly or because it's the kind of topic where people come with their preconceived ideas and just think A when I say B, no matter how many times I say it's B, just because there is no concept for B in their mind yet.


I wrote in several posts above (#50, #52) that Y-DNA's influence, be it on phenotype or fertility, varies because of special mutations (or insertions/deletions) that affect Y-chromosomal genes. I explained that 99% of Y-DNA SNP's are silent mutations that do not alter at all gene function, and that only a few polymorphisms seem to have had enough impact to have been selected by evolution. I wrote a full article on this, which I linked twice from this thread. Have you even read it? Because if you haven't it's like discussing a new paper and not even checking the paper in question.


In short, as far as I have been able to establish from my research in the thread on Y-chromosomal polymorphisms, there is probably no phenotypical difference between any E1b1b subclade, be it V22, V13, M81 or M34, because the only gene-altering polymorphisms in E1b1b define haplogroups DE, E and E1b1b. Some gene-altering polymorphisms may only affect fertility. At present I have no way of knowing for sure which of these evolutionarily important polymorphisms affected fertility vs phenotype, or both.


Nevertheless, I have met enough people over the years whose Y-DNA is known to me, and seen many more pictures of famous haplogroup members, to realise that I could guess at least if someone belonged to haplogroup R, E, J or G-I (it's harder to tell G and I apart). I have guessed a few times right. I obviously can't tell the subclade, and I shouldn't be able since 99.9% of all subclades are defined by silent mutations with no phenotypic effect.


I am shocked to read that you would think that I believe that members of haplogroup E-V22 have an Egyptian feel, when haplogroup E has such a wide geographic distribution. I have tried to explain that Y-DNA could simply influence the way the body and mind masculinises at puberty. This may be through something visible like a stronger nose and jaw, or a behavioural phenotype that could increased one's chances of reproduction, like heightened charm/smooh-talking (a trait which I found more common among J2a men), heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation (E and R1a), increased sense of honour (surprisingly common in populations with lots of E1b1b), etc. It's very difficult to define common traits between haplogroup members because Y-DNA only has a minor effect on looks and behaviour compared to other chromosomes, and other genes as well as upbringing, culture and life experiences may also override any trait. So ideally we should look at trends within people from a same country, culure and ethnic group.
 
I see that you did not understand at all what I meant. I mean not even one bit. I don't know if it's because I failed to express myself correctly or because it's the kind of topic where people come with their preconceived ideas and just think A when I say B, no matter how many times I say it's B, just because there is no concept for B in their mind yet.


I wrote in several posts above (#50, #52) that Y-DNA's influence, be it on phenotype or fertility, varies because of special mutations (or insertions/deletions) that affect Y-chromosomal genes. I explained that 99% of Y-DNA SNP's are silent mutations that do not alter at all gene function, and that only a few polymorphisms seem to have had enough impact to have been selected by evolution. I wrote a full article on this, which I linked twice from this thread. Have you even read it? Because if you haven't it's like discussing a new paper and not even checking the paper in question.


In short, as far as I have been able to establish from my research in the thread on Y-chromosomal polymorphisms, there is probably no phenotypical difference between any E1b1b subclade, be it V22, V13, M81 or M34, because the only gene-altering polymorphisms in E1b1b define haplogroups DE, E and E1b1b. Some gene-altering polymorphisms may only affect fertility. At present I have no way of knowing for sure which of these evolutionarily important polymorphisms affected fertility vs phenotype, or both.


Nevertheless, I have met enough people over the years whose Y-DNA is known to me, and seen many more pictures of famous haplogroup members, to realise that I could guess at least if someone belonged to haplogroup R, E, J or G-I (it's harder to tell G and I apart). I have guessed a few times right. I obviously can't tell the subclade, and I shouldn't be able since 99.9% of all subclades are defined by silent mutations with no phenotypic effect.


I am shocked to read that you would think that I believe that members of haplogroup E-V22 have an Egyptian feel, when haplogroup E has such a wide geographic distribution. I have tried to explain that Y-DNA could simply influence the way the body and mind masculinises at puberty. This may be through something visible like a stronger nose and jaw, or a behavioural phenotype that could increased one's chances of reproduction, like heightened charm/smooh-talking (a trait which I found more common among J2a men), heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation (E and R1a), increased sense of honour (surprisingly common in populations with lots of E1b1b), etc. It's very difficult to define common traits between haplogroup members because Y-DNA only has a minor effect on looks and behaviour compared to other chromosomes, and other genes as well as upbringing, culture and life experiences may also override any trait. So ideally we should look at trends within people from a same country, culure and ethnic group.

Thanks for the reply and explanations! The basic thing is that I think you overestimate the influence of Y-DNA. Especially when you speak about: "I think that there is also a particular 'aura' or 'feel' for haplogroups." I think that's more nurture than nature. You make it almost supernatural. I doubt that....nothing more nothing less.

And speaking about character issues like " heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation... increased sense of honour" there are besides the environment al lot more genes at stake....
 
Thanks for the reply and explanations! The basic thing is that I think you overestimate the influence of Y-DNA. Especially when you speak about: "I think that there is also a particular 'aura' or 'feel' for haplogroups." I think that's more nurture than nature. You make it almost supernatural. I doubt that....nothing more nothing less.


Supernatural? I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't believe in supernatural.


And speaking about character issues like " heightened rationality, increased aggressivity/confrotation... increased sense of honour" there are besides the environment al lot more genes at stake....


Of course there are much more gens at stake! I assumed that everybody knew that. Not only is there many non-Y-chromosomal genes involved, but the environment, upbringing and life experiences all play an influence. Additionally, the effects on Y-DNA would be strongest among young men (mid-teens to mid-twenties) when their testosterone and urge to reproduce is at its strongest. Prepubescents boys would not be affected at all. And elderly men with low testosterone and degenerating Y chromosomes (yes, Y-chromosomes in the body's cells tend to fray away more quickly than other chromosomes when telomeres shorten with age) would also see the effect on Y-DNA fade with age.


Character is difficult to measure, so let's take an example of physical trait. Let's imagine that Y-DNA had a effect on nose length (not completely absurd since men have bigger noses than women and the difference develops at puberty). The main genes involved in nose size, shape, etc. would obviously be autosomal. Y-DNA may just act as an amplificator, a bit like epigenetic changes that wrap histones more tightly, or conversely loosen their grip, to activate or inhibit genes. For example it is known that histone modification is implicated in the regulation spermatogenesis, so the role of Y-DNA in epigenetics is well established.


So let's say individual A has inherited a set of autosomal genes associated with very short noses, and individual B has other gene variants linked to very prominent noses. If both have the same Y-DNA (or at least useful Y-DNA mutations, so haplogroup subclades don't really matter in most cases), only autosomal genes will account for the difference in nose length in adulthood. Let's say that individual A's nose is 4 cm longer than B's is 6 cm. Now if we take too other individuals (C and D) with the exact same autosomal genes for nose morphology as individuals A and B, but that they both carry another type of Y chromosome, known to amplify nose length (there isn't any Y-DNA know to do that at present - it's just hypothetical). The difference might be just a 10% increase on autosomal variations, so 4.4 cm for C and 6.6 cm for D. In other words, B's nose is still considerably longer than C's, even though C possess a Y-DNA haplogroup associated with longer noses. Yet, overall, in a population where the Y-DNA for long nose is very common, most people will have longer noses than in an autosomally similar population with different Y-DNA types.

In this example, one way of knowing the additional impact of Y-DNA on top of autosomal genes, without knowing which autosomal genes are involved, would be to compare nose lengths between men and women of a same ethnic group, and calculate averages (out of thousands of samples, as individual autosomal variations can be huge) by Y-DNA haplogroup within that population.

Now the nose was just an arbitrary example that I used because it is easy to visualise. The same would apply for other traits I described like rationality, dominance or aggressiveness. It all boils down essentially to autosomal genes, but Y-DNA could amplify some sexually relevant traits one way or another. Those amplifications are more visible at the scale of a whole population, especially if one haplogroup is strongly dominant, and influences all autosomal variations in the same direction.


I hope that clarifies what I intended to convey.
 
Supernatural? I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't believe in supernatural.





Of course there are much more gens at stake! I assumed that everybody knew that. Not only is there many non-Y-chromosomal genes involved, but the environment, upbringing and life experiences all play an influence. Additionally, the effects on Y-DNA would be strongest among young men (mid-teens to mid-twenties) when their testosterone and urge to reproduce is at its strongest. Prepubescents boys would not be affected at all. And elderly men with low testosterone and degenerating Y chromosomes (yes, Y-chromosomes in the body's cells tend to fray away more quickly than other chromosomes when telomeres shorten with age) would also see the effect on Y-DNA fade with age.


Character is difficult to measure, so let's take an example of physical trait. Let's imagine that Y-DNA had a effect on nose length (not completely absurd since men have bigger noses than women and the difference develops at puberty). The main genes involved in nose size, shape, etc. would obviously be autosomal. Y-DNA may just act as an amplificator, a bit like epigenetic changes that wrap histones more tightly, or conversely loosen their grip, to activate or inhibit genes. For example it is known that histone modification is implicated in the regulation spermatogenesis, so the role of Y-DNA in epigenetics is well established.


So let's say individual A has inherited a set of autosomal genes associated with very short noses, and individual B has other gene variants linked to very prominent noses. If both have the same Y-DNA (or at least useful Y-DNA mutations, so haplogroup subclades don't really matter in most cases), only autosomal genes will account for the difference in nose length in adulthood. Let's say that individual A's nose is 4 cm longer than B's is 6 cm. Now if we take too other individuals (C and D) with the exact same autosomal genes for nose morphology as individuals A and B, but that they both carry another type of Y chromosome, known to amplify nose length (there isn't any Y-DNA know to do that at present - it's just hypothetical). The difference might be just a 10% increase on autosomal variations, so 4.4 cm for C and 6.6 cm for D. In other words, B's nose is still considerably longer than C's, even though C possess a Y-DNA haplogroup associated with longer noses. Yet, overall, in a population where the Y-DNA for long nose is very common, most people will have longer noses than in an autosomally similar population with different Y-DNA types.

In this example, one way of knowing the additional impact of Y-DNA on top of autosomal genes, without knowing which autosomal genes are involved, would be to compare nose lengths between men and women of a same ethnic group, and calculate averages (out of thousands of samples, as individual autosomal variations can be huge) by Y-DNA haplogroup within that population.

Now the nose was just an arbitrary example that I used because it is easy to visualise. The same would apply for other traits I described like rationality, dominance or aggressiveness. It all boils down essentially to autosomal genes, but Y-DNA could amplify some sexually relevant traits one way or another. Those amplifications are more visible at the scale of a whole population, especially if one haplogroup is strongly dominant, and influences all autosomal variations in the same direction.


I hope that clarifies what I intended to convey.


Dear Macionmo af course I can understand your intentions.
A few remarks:
1. Your basic argumentation, with your nose example, in this posting is "as-if". The only thing we now certain for Y-DNA is the sober remark of LeBrok: "Y DNA makes a man out of a woman. If there was no Y chromosome there wouldn't be men, only women. As we know a man is somewhat different from a woman in behaviour and a look. So, yes to the main question." Nothing more nothing less. We simply don't know more than this, at least there is no clear evidence, for the fact that Y-DNA has an effect beyond that. But you approach the effect of Y-DNA as if it has broader "character" and even into "aura" consequenties. So at this moment you create an elephant out of it which may be in reality still is a little fly....
2. The differences in Y-DNA and the labeling is a human projection. A construct. The differences are "copy failures". We don't know which effect this "copy failures" have. Is it important for human behavior or is it junk DNA material
n'importe quoi. We simply don't know.
3. What makes the influence of Y-DNA of one specific ancestor that big? Ok we come from a situation were the paternal line was important. But that's a social construct, opinion based, not an biological one. What makes his influence on my genotype, phenotype, behavior, "aura", "Feel" or whatsoever that big!? In my case the Y-DNA (a in Northwestern Europe very rare YDNA) came most probably in 1586 in my family. For me that's 12 generations ago. What makes the influence of this single person bigger than the other 4095 (double ancestors not counted)? In some way you can consider this as a kind of Dr. Vogel homeopathy ;)
 
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Supernatural? I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't believe in supernatural.

Dear Maciamo,

Ever in doubt and out of curiosity I did further "deskresearch". This has changed my view. There is some research about the effect of Y-DNA and the differences within it, it's indeed about "typical male disorders" ;)

- Brain function:
Despite its small size, and limited gene content, we have argued here that the Y chromosome may exert a considerable influence on brain function. As a consequence of its inheritance pattern, genes upon it may help to define male-specific brain phenotypes, and hence male-typical behaviours. An alternative perspective is that, in some cases, Y-linked genes may act to attenuate sex differences (e.g. where the Y homologue of an X-linked escaping inactivation performs a functionally equivalent role). In this context, Dewing and colleagues suggested that, in rats, ‘Sry could compensate for a factor that is only present in females and maintains tyrosine hydroxylase expression in substantia nigra neurons’, positing high levels of estrogens in females as such a factor [53]. A major goal for future work will be to describe the brain functions of Y-linked genes in terms of their relevance to selective evolutionary forces acting on the chromosome, such as sexual antagonism. Further studies on the Y chromosome will provide insights into the biological basis of neural sexual differentiation (or lack thereof), and will clarify the molecular basis of sex biases in common neuropsychiatric disorders."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854822/#!po=50.0000

Result: unclear, need to further research

- Aggressive behavior:
Studies show that personality dimensions such as aggression are influenced by genetic factors and that allelic variants located on the Y chromosome influence such behavior. We investigated polymorphisms on the male-specific region of the human Y chromosome in 156 unrelated males from the same ethnic background, who were administered the Punjabi translation of the Buss and Perry Aggression Questionnaire that measures four aspects that constitute aggressive behavior, i.e. physical aggression, verbal aggression, anger, and hostility. A value of .85 for Cronbach's coefficient alpha indicates considerable internal consistency and suggests that the psychometric properties of the aggression questionnaire can be adapted for the Pakistani population. A mean score+/-SD of 69.70+/-19.95 was obtained for the questionnaire. Each individual was genotyped following a phylogenetic hierarchical approach to define evolutionary Y haplogroups. Five Y haplogroups that are commonly found in Eurasia and Pakistan comprised 87% (n=136) of the population sample, with one haplogroup, R1a1, constituting 55% of the sampled population. A comparison of the total and four subscale mean scores across the five common Y haplogroups that were present at a frequency > or =3% in this ethnic group revealed no overall significant differences. However, effect-size comparisons allowed us to detect an association of the haplogroups R2 (Cohen's d statistic=.448-.732) and R1a1 (d=.107-.448) with lower self-reported aggression mean scores in this population.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18942110

Result: positive effect of the influence of different Y-DNA

- Alcoholism:
Our results indicate that the risk of alcoholism in Finnish males is influenced by differences in Y chromosomes. Risk ratios suggest that males within clades 1-49, 1-21, and 1-57 were 1.5 times more likely to be alcoholic than males with other Y haplotypes, and the risk for alcohol dependence with ASPD was increased 2-fold within clade 1-57. However, the majority of the risk of alcoholism in these Finnish males is not Y chromosome-associated, and in fact, alcohol dependence is observed with Y haplotypes distributed throughout the cladogram. Twin studies suggest that alcoholism has a heritability of ≈50% (50, 51). Using this figure and data from our population sample, we estimate that Y chromosome variability may account for ≈7% of the total variance and 15% of the genetic variance of alcoholism in these Finnish males. These values are consistent with our present understanding of an etiology of alcoholism that encompasses contributions from many environmental factors and multiple genetic loci.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC22445/

Result: positive effect of Y-DNA and the difference within it.

- Autism:
Taken together, these results indicate that there is no specific Y chromosome haplogroup in association with autism. However, a direct role of one or more Y chromosomal genes in the predisposition to the syndrome cannot be excluded. Indeed, the Y chromosome has a relatively high frequency of de novo point mutations or deletions compared to other chromosomes, so the appearance of neo-mutations leading to predisposition to autism would not be detected by a simple definition of haplogroups.
In conclusion, within the limits of association studies, this investigation supports the absence of a specific Y chromosome effect in autism but analysis of candidate genes may be necessary to exclude a direct role of the Y chromosome in autistic disorder.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1899172/

Result: negative effect, but partly still unclear.

Made my view more nuanced.....may be the effect is bigger than I supposed!
 
Dear Macionmo af course I can understand your intentions.
A few remarks:
1. Your basic argumentation, with your nose example, in this posting is "as-if". The only thing we now certain for Y-DNA is the sober remark of LeBrok: "Y DNA makes a man out of a woman. If there was no Y chromosome there wouldn't be men, only women. As we know a man is somewhat different from a woman in behaviour and a look. So, yes to the main question." Nothing more nothing less. We simply don't know more than this, at least there is no clear evidence, for the fact that Y-DNA has an effect beyond that. But you approach the effect of Y-DNA as if it has broader "character" and even into "aura" consequenties. So at this moment you create an elephant out of it which may be in reality still is a little fly....
2. The differences in Y-DNA and the labeling is a human projection. A construct. The differences are "copy failures". We don't know which effect this "copy failures" have. Is it important for human behavior or is it junk DNA material
n'importe quoi. We simply don't know.
3. What makes the influence of Y-DNA of one specific ancestor that big? Ok we come from a situation were the paternal line was important. But that's a social construct, opinion based, not an biological one. What makes his influence on my genotype, phenotype, behavior, "aura", "Feel" or whatsoever that big!? In my case the Y-DNA (a in Northwestern Europe very rare YDNA) came most probably in 1586 in my family. For me that's 12 generations ago. What makes the influence of this single person bigger than the other 4095 (double ancestors not counted)? In some way you can consider this as a kind of Dr. Vogel homeopathy ;)

Actually to be fair, Maciamo gave a reasonable example with Lion/Tiger hybrids to assume that yDNA does indeed influence some physical and mental traits.

It is no coincidence that male Lions and female tigers always become the larger typed Liger while female Lions and male Tigers become the physically little smaller and different looking Tigons.

There is a reason why y and mt chromosomes are highlited in our genome by being bigger in comparison to the other.


But as Maciamo correctly noticed it is always a combination of both (in men) y chromosome on one hand and aDNA on the other with enviromental and ethno_cultural factors.

aDNA and yDNA are not fixated parameters. Every set of DNA has an interval of physical and mental end results.

Let me try to give an example.

You got two lookwise identical cars from the same manufacturer, withthe only difference that Car A: has max speed of 240 km/H , Car B: 300 km/H and difference in Horsepower.

Now both have quite a huge interval of speed they can be driven at (A => 1-240 and B=> 1-280 km/h).

Now assuming both cars are driven by the same driver with the same driving skills( same set of aDNA), the way how the cars are driven wll be almost the same. Depending on where the Cars are driven (enviromental/ethno_cultural factor), one could be on average at 160 km/h while the other only at 60 km/h because the environment is different.

Now imagine both cars being driven on the same race track (same enviromental/cultural influence) by the same driver (same set of aDNA) with no speed limit (difference in maximum potential due to different maxspeed and horsepower ) one car will not only drive faster due to different max speed but also reach it's maximum speed a little faster due to difference in Horsepower. And this difference in my example would be the y and mtDNA effect, especially yDNA in males.

As you might have noticed I took for my example two cars with quite similar max speed with only a little difference of 40 km/H because I tried to make sure that this would rather be one of the smaller factors in my example since I believe it is a smaller factor in comparison to aDNA (the driver) but it is still an important factor! Yet every driver has an interval of possibilities of how he can drive (even the slowest driver has) and these possibilities next to his skills are dictated by his own skills in combination to enviromental factors. Enviromental differences would be the biggest unknown factor depending on where you live(drive) if it is the same aDNA but on the completely opposite part of the world (very hot vs very cold and very conservative vs very liberal) it can have huge effect on your physical/mental appearance.
 
Sorry, of course it is 1 per generation.
Is 100 mutations in 3500 years based on the full Y chromosome, or 20% of the Y chromosome?

I think yfull sequences only 20% of the Y chromosome, so this would imply 500 mutations in 3500 years. That is 3 mutations for every 21 years. If you look at the available data it comes out at 2.5 mutations per generation, but that doesn't take deletions/insertions into account.


The best way to test your theory is to post 40 pictures of men with similar autosomes who belong to 4 distinct Y haplogroups. Then ask people to pair males who they believe to look similar. Obviously this will not result in 20 pairs, but people should be able to find at least 4 pairs.

If Y haplogroup is of no influence they will be correct 25% of the time.
 
Btw, some time ago I did a quick test, providing someone with 30 pictures of West European looking men with 10 pictures each of R1a, R1b, and I1. The test subject grouped 6 men together, 5 of which were I1. I'm not familiar with probability math, but it seems to defy the odds.

For R1a and R1b there wasn't an obvious pattern.
 
Btw, some time ago I did a quick test, providing someone with 30 pictures of West European looking men with 10 pictures each of R1a, R1b, and I1. The test subject grouped 6 men together, 5 of which were I1. I'm not familiar with probability math, but it seems to defy the odds.

For R1a and R1b there wasn't an obvious pattern.

Can you post the pictures? It might be fun.
 
Can you post the pictures? It might be fun.
Alright, got 16 guys who should all belong to either one of two Y haplogroups. I don't know their nationality, but I picked men who I perceived as passable as NW European. Just refer to them as 01, 02, etc. Group them however you wish. I can only attach 4 pictures per post, so give me some time to add the rest.

Picture 01, 02, 03, 04.

01.jpg02.jpg03.jpg04.jpg
 

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