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View Poll Results: Do you think that Y-chromosomal DNA has an influence on phenotype?

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  • No, Y-DNA does not influence looks or behaviour at all

    27 32.53%
  • Y-DNA might possibly have a minor influence on man's behaviour, but not on his physical appearance

    6 7.23%
  • Y-DNA most probably influences a man's behaviour, but has no effect on physical appearance at all

    0 0%
  • Y-DNA slightly influences a man's physical appearance, but not his behaviour

    6 7.23%
  • Y-DNA considerably influences a man's physical appearance, but not his behaviour

    1 1.20%
  • Y-DNA slightly influences a man's physical appearance and his behaviour

    19 22.89%
  • Y-DNA considerably influences a man's physical appearance and his behaviour

    11 13.25%
  • No idea !

    13 15.66%
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Thread: Do you believe that Y-DNA influences looks and behaviour?

  1. #51
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    Remarkably little variation in proteins encoded by the Y chromosome's single-copy genes, implying effective purifying selection identifies mutations within the X-degenerate gene and pseudogene region associated with all the main Y haplogroups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What is certain is that some important mutations took place in the SRY gene, which strongly affect male characteristics, define major haplogroups like E, O2b and R1a.
    Do those mutations actually affect the functioning of SRY in any way though?

    As far as I can tell neither SRY10381 nor SRY4064/M40 (E) is located within SRY gene itself, or even close enough to be within the promoter region. SRY465 (O2b) is within the gene but it is a synonymous mutation so doesn't change the gene product.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the human genome has over 3 billion base pairs
    the Y-chromosome has abt 58 million, less than 2 %
    afaik no genes have yet been identified within the Y-DNA
    Are genes necessary for DNA to express mental or physical differences? I don't believe so.

    It's known that European men are more likely to have blue eyes than women, somewhere around %5 to %10. This variation is however difficult to observe as women are more likely to have green eyes, but it's there. You can't look at a blue-eyed guy and claim he's I12a however. So even if Y-Haplogroup has a significant influence (5-10%) you wouldn't readily observe it because the autosomal influence is much higher.

    Our brains are very capable though, so people who are good at recognizing faces might see patterns when there are small changes in multiple attributes.

    This theory is easily proved / disproved, except that most researchers wouldn't touch this subject with a 12 foot pole. We have enough reasons to hate each other as it is.

  3. #53
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the human genome has over 3 billion base pairs
    the Y-chromosome has abt 58 million, less than 2 %
    afaik no genes have yet been identified within the Y-DNA
    No genes? There are now over 200 known genes on the Y chromosome, a ten fold increase compared to what we knew 5 years ago. I wrote a lengthy article on how some mutations in Y-chromosomal genes were apparently favoured by natural selection. I mentioned some of the know Y-DNA gene functions (that includes non-fertility related things like bone growth and height), but of course we still don't know what most of those genes do. That doesn't mean they don't have important functions.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You should look into the father tongue hypothesis. This would suggest that the Basque originally had a majority Y haplogroup that was almost entirely replaced by R1b within the past 5000 years. But it also suggests that the success of R1b in Western Europe (and several other Y haplogroups) was not a reproductive one.

    There's also proof of a 500% higher deletion rate of Neanderthal DNA on the X chromosome which supports your theory.

  5. #55
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    You should look into the father tongue hypothesis. This would suggest that the Basque originally had a majority Y haplogroup that was almost entirely replaced by R1b within the past 5000 years. But it also suggests that the success of R1b in Western Europe (and several other Y haplogroups) was not a reproductive one.
    Do you mean something like that?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Do you mean something like that?
    Not quite, the Basque living in a mountainous region would be the reason they didn't get invaded and retained their language, with R1b L11 starting out small and becoming dominant over time.

    It should also be kept in mind that an Y haplogroup acquiring a mutation beneficial to the environment is an equally plausible explanation for bottlenecks. What is your estimated percentage of selection in favor of male sperm motility compared to beneficial traits in males of reproductive age?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    Not quite, the Basque living in a mountainous region would be the reason they didn't get invaded and retained their language, with R1b L11 starting out small and becoming dominant over time.

    It should also be kept in mind that an Y haplogroup acquiring a mutation beneficial to the environment is an equally plausible explanation for bottlenecks. What is your estimated percentage of selection in favor of male sperm motility compared to beneficial traits in males of reproductive age?
    Most estimates give Basque as much Steppe ancestry as Spanish and SouthWest French. In most tests Basque are genetically distinct from Iberian because they lack NorthWest African and West Asian admixture which Iberians have some of(maybe 20% total).

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Most estimates give Basque as much Steppe ancestry as Spanish and SouthWest French. In most tests Basque are genetically distinct from Iberian because they lack NorthWest African and West Asian admixture which Iberians have some of(maybe 20% total).
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...nes-Steppe-K10

    Basque have 0% unless I'm looking at different data.


    As for Y-linked traits, this study suggests in Finland Y-DNA mutations account for 15% of the genetic variance in alcoholism. The Y haplogroups have been obscured however.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC22445/

    Twin studies suggest that alcoholism has a heritability of ≈50% (50, 51). Using this figure and data from our population sample, we estimate that Y chromosome variability may account for ≈7% of the total variance and 15% of the genetic variance of alcoholism in these Finnish males.

  9. #59
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    ADMIXTURE isn't good at determining ancestry from ancient people. Formal stats are good for that. In every formal stat test Basque score 25-30% Yamnaya.

  10. #60
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    The following graph from Haak et al is a handy one to keep in one's files. If I remember correctly, it's based on d-stats, not ADMIXTURE. According to their calculations, the Basque have a bit more steppe than Spaniards, but not much more. (I believe Basque here is French Basque, and Spanish North is Pais Vasco.)



    I agree with Fire-Haired as to the unreliability of ADMIXTURE analysis when you're analyzing ancient samples.


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  11. #61
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Pacheco View Post
    I think that its true to a degree. Alot of arabs are by nature, aggresive and tend to be of bad behaviour. Same goes with majority of northern africa and middleeast.
    Let's cut out the pejorative stereotypes, shall we?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    No genes? There are now over 200 known genes on the Y chromosome, a ten fold increase compared to what we knew 5 years ago. I wrote a lengthy article on how some mutations in Y-chromosomal genes were apparently favoured by natural selection. I mentioned some of the know Y-DNA gene functions (that includes non-fertility related things like bone growth and height), but of course we still don't know what most of those genes do. That doesn't mean they don't have important functions.
    there is a link in your article to '200-chromosomal genes' but it doesn't work or it is a loop to the same article
    I don't know how you can identify a gene if you don't know its function
    I guess on genes with a function there is always some natural selection in play

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't know how you can identify a gene if you don't know its function
    A coding gene begins (usually) with a pointer sequence (TATA-Box), then we get the start codon, the code and the end codon. This identifies it as a gene, at least a protein coding one. So I don't need to know the function of the gene, just it's functional components.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I guess on genes with a function there is always some natural selection in play
    Apparently. Functional genes are far better protected against mutations than non functional ones (aka Pseudogenes).

    I don't know where the number 200 comes from, as far as I know the newest (2016) values are:
    71 protein coding genes (that's what we are interested in)
    109 non-coding genes (usually various types of RNA, single stranded molecules, which function by their own three-dimensional molecule structure)
    388 pseudogenes (obviously defunct genes ready to be skipped out of the chromosome over time)

    Whatever, as far as I know, the genes of the Y-Chromosome are for initialising defeminisation, maskulinisation and for sperma production. Otherwise, at least to my knowledge there is only one gene, Amely, which has to do with physical attributes (enamel production). I do not see any other genes that code for physical features or hormones which trigger 'male' behaviour. All those are coded in other chromosomes with the consequence that presumably no gene of the Y-Chromosome DIRECTLY has something to do with physical attributes or behaviour. Therefore it's pretty obvious that haplogroups can't be responsible for any of such claims, which by the way would be quite racist anyway...

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The following graph from Haak et al is a handy one to keep in one's files. If I remember correctly, it's based on d-stats, not ADMIXTURE. According to their calculations, the Basque have a bit more steppe than Spaniards, but not much more. (I believe Basque here is French Basque, and Spanish North is Pais Vasco.)
    The ancestral proportions shown in figure 3 are based on Haak's very own model of fixation statistics. In this case the authors attempt to measure the contribution to modern populations between the three hypothetical ancestral populations that contributed to modern Europeans, which in this case would be Loschbour-Yamnaya-Stuttgart as far as I remember. The ancestral components are calculated based on dissimilarity within this three population matrix. For those who'd like to understand this method I'd recommend Benjamin Peter's paper on the technical aspect of these models.

    The higher contribution of Yamnaya to modern populations in f3 as opposed to more complex ADMIXTURE analyses may just be a result of the different population histories between the Upper Paleolithic, Neolithic & Chalcolithic. Haak's analysis might be skewed in favour of Chalcolithic Yamnaya because it has a very modern, diverse population history which lead to a reduction in heterozygosity, whereas the isolated Loschbour individuals are much less modern in this respect. In this context it might be worth pondering why for example in Alentoft's analysis the Basques of all populations show less of the West Asian component than even Sardinians at K = 19. It would be highly unusual if this was merely a result of the unreliablity of ADMIXTURE.

  15. #65
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  16. #66
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    Interesting, found in an article linked by Northerner:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18942110

    A comparison of the total and four subscale mean scores across the five common Y haplogroups that were present at a frequency > or =3% in this ethnic group revealed no overall significant differences. However, effect-size comparisons allowed us to detect an association of the haplogroups R2 (Cohen's d statistic=.448-.732) and R1a1 (d=.107-.448) with lower self-reported aggression mean scores in this population.

  17. #67
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Thanks for sharing. I didn't see it when you posted it 2 months ago. There is so much to say about this study that I have opened a new thread to comment on it.

  18. #68
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    At some extent.

  19. #69
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I think it hardly has any similarities. I know so many siblings who should have a lot of the same genetics who are quite radically different personality and looks wise. Clearly a lot of other factors probably have even more influence in characteristics of humans, especially when it comes to personality. How come you feel way more similar to your best friend than some of your closest genetic relatives?... Isn't that kinda weird. I know you can say well you've known your friend for a long time and blah blah blah...No still, I have known most of my relatives longer than my friend yet I simply feel like I have more common ground with him, and we simply get along and understand each other better.
    To me these haplogroups probably don't matter much if at all, what they are probably useful for is trying to track population movements to some extent, and to figure out how much populations have mixed with each other.

  20. #70
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    No, very unlikely.
    Last edited by Jeger; 13-12-17 at 12:29.

  21. #71
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    No.
    YDNA is just a very small part of our DNA. It matters only for tracing direct male line lineage and for tracing migration of large groups of peoples...

  22. #72
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    I voted ‘No’ as well. I am originally from Scotland and was born with red hair and blue eyes. My Ydna is under a very low tested clade, R1a-Y15121. Worldwide according to Yfull there are now 15 of us. They are from India, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Sri Lanka, Bulgaria, Poland, Ireland, England and Scotland. Recent BigY tests have provided matches in Ireland and England at a TMRCA of 600 years. Low tested but spread afar.

    Geno2 test has me at 97% British and 2% Arabian. The analogy here is I may have started out as an Arabian Stallion, but through local breeding I am now an Old Scottish Dray Horse.

  23. #73
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    Stop appropriating my haplogroup

  24. #74
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ation_analysis

    According to this study haplogroup I has significantly higher testosterone levels and lower self-reported aggression levels.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ation_analysis

    According to this study haplogroup I has significantly higher testosterone levels and lower self-reported aggression levels.
    It actually says the exact opposite. They had ngative results all around.

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