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Thread: WHG or EHG look alike?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    WHG or EHG look alike?



    I recently saw Mait Metspalu on a video about the Pagani et al "Out of Africa" paper, and he immediately struck me as having a somewhat archaic look...WHG/EHG, maybe? I'm talking strictly facially. Am I totally off here? Does he have any unique ancestry to anyone's knowledge?

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...74915937037976



    See:


    This guy above has higher cheekbones and a bonier nose, but as to the nose I'm always skeptical that they can get it right.


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    oh they are very much alike! I love the comparison, let's ask Mait Metspalu, how much EHG he is...

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    The figure 3 in Haak 2015 provides us with evidence of higher WHG ancestry in Estonia.

    Haak 2015.PNG

    In this figure Estonians seem to be more than 30% Loschbour like.

    The guy Angela posted is Loscbour. Isn't he?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    The figure 3 in Haak 2015 provides us with evidence of higher WHG ancestry in Estonia.

    Haak 2015.PNG

    In this figure Estonians seem to be more than 30% Loschbour like.

    The guy Angela posted is Loscbour. Isn't he?
    Yes, Kristina, it is. So, maybe WHG like it is?

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    Yeah, could be so. Maybe he is a lookalike of "true Europeans": no African, no Mediterranean, no West Asian, no Yamnaya, no Siberian, no Native American. :)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Until someone here gives sources telling what WHG skeletal features were, we'll have no idea if he has a WHG look. Does anyone have said sources? Anyone can have a heavy build and beard, lots did in the ancient world, so that doesn't add to his WHGness, WHG didn't look any rougher or primitive than anyone else. EHG is basically a mixture of WHG and ANE, so if we assume there were distinct WHG looks the question is does he have a WHG or other look.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Yeah, could be so. Maybe he is a lookalike of "true Europeans": no African, no Mediterranean, no West Asian, no Yamnaya, no Siberian, no Native American. :)
    I'm being picky here but.... Modern West Asians aren't pure CHG and modern Mediterraneans aren't pure Anatolia Neolithic. Also, Anatolia Neolithic and his relatives lived in the East Mediterranean, most of the European Mediterranean was WHG. I get what you're saying though and you're right. Also, btw Western Europe wasn't the only location WHG lived in.....

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Until someone here gives sources telling what WHG skeletal features were, we'll have no idea if he has a WHG look.
    As per Angela, we are only talking about facial features. WHG is defined on the basis of Loschbour and the facial reconstruction is made of Loschbour, so we really cannot have any better facial reference for WHG than Loschbour.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Maybe he is a lookalike of "true Europeans"
    True Europeans would be Neandertals, anyone else is just super late comer. ^_~

    A-model-of-a-Neanderthal-008.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    As per Angela, we are only talking about facial features. WHG is defined on the basis of Loschbour and the facial reconstruction is made of Loschbour, so we really cannot have any better facial reference for WHG than Loschbour.
    Loschbour is only one individual. Two different individuals from the same population can have very different facial features. In some populations most individuals do have similar facial features(ex: East Asians and Native Americans), but I've noticed Europeans have lots of variation in facial features. Maybe Loschbour is representative of WHGs and maybe not.

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    There were NOT 2 but at least 3 ( three !! ) types of the European hunter gatherers. EHG (Eastern European), SHG (Scandinavian) and WHG (Western European).


    Ancient EHG were much more shifted toward ANE than other European hunter gatherers. The distance between 'EHG and ANE' was practically the same as the distance between 'CHG/Neolithic Iran and ANE'.

    But today modern day Caucasians/Iranians have more ANE than Europeans..


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    If you look at that map screenshot you can see that EHG and WHG were clearly 2 totally DIFFERENT species / races!!!

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    Could you imagine if he really was loschbour and had his own show? It would be called "An Intellectual Discourse with Professor Loscbour"

    Today's episode, we shall discuss the metaphysical aspects of spearing a wild boar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    "true Europeans": no African, no Mediterranean, no West Asian, no Yamnaya, no Siberian, no Native American.
    Ancients with Eurogenes K15:

    https://s9.postimg.org/h9vj9gi9p/K15_Ancients.png

    File with data: http://www85.zippyshare.com/v/E6DR0qQl/file.html



    A PCA based on those results:

    http://s16.postimg.org/d5v0tx1et/PCA_described.png



    If we add moderns, then I guess:

    http://s9.postimg.org/rkmjd7cr3/Europeans.png


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    Indeed!

    Loschbour admixture.jpg

    Only European components: North Sea, Atlantic, Baltic and East Euro. That 0.8% of Oceanian is probably archaic noise.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moi-même View Post
    True Europeans would be Neandertals, anyone else is just super late comer. ^_~

    A-model-of-a-Neanderthal-008.jpg
    Brilliant!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    That 0.8% of Oceanian is probably archaic noise.
    It is not archaic, but from the First Out of Africa of Homo Sapiens 90,000 years ago:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ion-90-000-ybp

    Note that Oceanian = Papuan-like (Papuans score ~99,99% of Oceanian admixture).

    ==============

    On the other hand, "Sub-Saharan" and "Northeast African" in some samples might be excess (above the norm) of archaic.

    Because this calculator does not distinguish between Neanderthal/Denisovan (above the "modern norm") and Sub-Saharan.

    It probably counts anything from Before-Out-Of-Africa as Sub-Saharan, no matter if it was 50,000 or 800,000 years before.

    Check on your own:

    Gedmatch kit - sample:

    F999902 AltaiNeanderthal
    F999903 DenisovaHominin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    In some populations most individuals do have similar facial features(ex: East Asians and Native Americans)
    No, they have as much variation as Europeans. However, we don't see this because they look just so different.

    There is a condition when people cannot distinguish faces at all:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopagnosia

    Gather 20 stones of similar size and shape, and try to remember their features, then recognize which is which.

    People with face blindness also have such difficulty but with faces.

    People of a given race have more difficulty with distinguishing faces of people of another race, than their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    No, they have as much variation as Europeans. However, we don't see this because they look just so different.

    There is a condition when people cannot distinguish faces at all:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopagnosia

    Gather 20 stones of similar size and shape, and try to remember their features, then recognize which is which.

    People with face blindness also have such difficulty but with faces.

    People of a given race have more difficulty with distinguishing faces of people of another race, than their own.
    That's absolutely true; it's called the cross-race effect, and has to be taken into account when taking eye witness testimony.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-..._ethnic_groups

    However, in my opinion there's no question there's less variation in east Asians. For one thing there isn't the variation in hair and eye color we have in Europe, and skin tone too. Height also varies more.

    Those are all "hooks" for recognition.

    The only way to know would be to test large numbers of Caucasians doing facial recognition of Caucasians, and East Asians doing it of East Asians, and see if there are differences. Of course, that might be politically incorrect, so they probably won't do it.

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    For one thing there isn't the variation in hair and eye color we have in Europe, and skin tone too.
    There is quite a lot of variation in skin tone between East Asians. Probably more than in Europe.

    As for hair and eye color, here I agree.

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    East Asian faces vary much less than European. Native American faces vary much less than European. It's fact. I wouldn't say this about African Americans, I'd say they have more variation than Europeans. It has nothing to with them being foreign to me. So, my point stands that we can't trust Loschbour is representative of all WHGs. Plus we need flesh not just skulls and we are unable to get flesh, so reconstructions are just guess work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Indeed!

    Loschbour admixture.jpg

    Only European components: North Sea, Atlantic, Baltic and East Euro. That 0.8% of Oceanian is probably archaic noise.
    I should score about 45-50 percent of those components going by averages but hey if we are going by how long one should stay in a certain continent in order to be of that continent, I have a message for you lol. We are all from Africa lol. Here's a song from BLACK UHURU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlYoGdFUqs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    ENative American faces vary much less than European.
    I don't think so: http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Pi...ndians-00.html

    And what about differences between South and North American natives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I don't think so: http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Pi...ndians-00.html

    And what about differences between South and North American natives?
    Just google crowds of Chinese people. There's probably difference between different Amerindians but they all look very similar. The few Natives I meet have short hair and look like typical Mexicans. 1800s photos of Natives in American run schools with short hair look like Mexicans. There is a very uniform Amerindian look that most of them have. It's just a fact European populations and Middle Eastern populations and African populations and others have more intra-variation in facial shape and body build. I don't need a scientific paper for this to know it is true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    2
    2
    odd how this calculator is different when I test myself with the ancients in Gedmatch............my closest are stuttgart and BR
    2 Real close..............yet below the numbers are different from your chart



    Atlantic 24.78
    2 West_Med 18.81
    3 East_Med 13.91
    4 North_Sea 13.36
    5 Baltic 9.59
    6 West_Asian 8.42
    7 Eastern_Euro 7.71
    8 Red_Sea 2.27
    9 South_Asian 0.77
    10 Sub-Saharan 0.26
    11 Oceanian 0.12
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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