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Thread: The journey of CTS5856

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    The journey of CTS5856

    Hello. I’ve been a long time lurker on this board. For the past year I’ve been looking in to the origin and spread of V13. This will be a rather long wall of text describing where I think V13/CTS5858 originated, and how it moved to where it is now. The general view is a southern Balkan origin and subsequent spread north along the Danube, I will suggest it happened the other way around. :)
    I’m curious what the view of others is.

    PS: I had a nice bunch of links to sources and info, but the boards won't let me post them, hopefully it's still clear without them.

    About V13/CTS5856

    Since people on this board are probably not familiar with sub-V13 SNP’s I’ll give a small introduction. According to estimates by the manager of the V13 NGS project the TMRCA of V13 is about 5750 years ago. Roughly 97% of V13 that has been tested downstream is CTS5856+, this SNP has a TMRCA of 4850 years ago. More than 90% of those tested downstream of CTS5856 fall in to four branches: Z5018, Z5017, S7461 and S3003. Of these S3003 is dominated by L540, which has a more recent expansion. Z5017 is dominated by CTS9320 which is also younger than most of the sub Z5018 branches. A very simplified phylogeny would look like this, all TMRCA’s are taken from the V13 NGS project, except for Z5017/18 -> apparently you won't get to see this untill I have 10 posts, I hope the text alone is clear enough.


    The origin

    The general theory is that V13/CTS5856 originated in the southern Balkan since it reaches its highest levels there. Based on recent analysis of V13*, CTS5856*, and its direct descendants, and some info about V13 in the Alps I think otherwise. It seems likely to me that CTS5856 and some of its oldest branches mutated in the border region of Germany, France and Switzerland, near Lake Constance and the sources of the Danube. In this region we find two V13* of the four we know. The Swiss origin of one of them is based on family lore and is not documented, but the family of which they would have descended is attested in Switzerland, so I'll assume it to be correct for now. Maybe these two V13* are related (they have not been NGS-tested), but their STR-profiles are very far apart, which suggests that even if they share a post V13 ancestor, their presence here must go back a long time. Apart from them we find a CTS5856*, a S7461* (the only known, all the rest of S7461 is in a common subbranch) and a Z5018* . Another CTS5856* doesn’t have an origin, but is GD9 from a SE-German. This seems too much to be a coincidence. I have to remark here that some of the CTS5856* have been tested through Big Y which has no coverage for Z5018, and doesn’t always cover Z5017. Since they were not found positive for any sub Z5017 or Z5018 SNP they might be Z5017* or Z5018* rather than CTS5856*, so they would still be very basal.

    Assuming this points us to the origin of CTS5856 we might assume that a mixed, late-neolithic population in the northern Alps contained various branches of V13, from which one (CTS5856) would boom in the Bronze age. Given the presence of Z5018* and S7461* in this region it seems a group of related people moved away from this region of origin. Either they still considered themselves a “clan” of some sorts, and moved together for that reason, or they were part of a bigger movement that also included other Neolithic haplogroups like G-L497 (maybe a village or some villages that formed a tribal group moved, it would not be unlogic for different branches of CTS5856 to be living close to each other). They might have moved as a trickle or in one group, maybe as merchants/artisans, but given the fact that CTS5856 groups are still associated in the Southern Balkans it seems more likely to me that they moved as one group in a relatively short time span, retaining a common identity (even if this was part of a larger group).

    This same region was a border region of the Roman empire, so it’s possible these V13*/CTS5856* arrived here with Roman soldiers from the Balkan. Another option is that they migrated from the Balkan following the Danube upstream. More testing in the Balkans would surely clarify this, but for now I’m inclined to see this as the region of origin rather than the other way around.

    The reason

    If CTS5856 really originated near the Alps, why did this group move? Maybe they were forced because of natural causes. About 3500BC the climate in Europe started worsening, by 3200BC the decline accelerated. The worst conditions are thought to have occurred from 3200BC to 2900BC. This so called “Piora oscillation” was first noticed in the Piora valley in the Alps, and there is evidence that glaciers in the Alps advanced, the tree line descended, and weather was substantially colder and wetter than before. A lot of the late Neolithic population in the Alps lived in “lake dwellings” at lake shores, or even on the lakes, and the level of these lakes rose and was subject to violent floods. Briefly, if you were a farmer in the Alps after 3200BC you had very good reasons to start looking for a better place to live.
    If you look at the TMRCA of CTS5856 on the overview above (4850 years ago), you see this date has to be pushed back only a few percent to have CTS5856 and a few descendants present during the Piora-oscillation.

    The route

    Still assuming the origin of CTS5856 is in the northwestern Alps, and this group started moving under impulse of bad climatic conditions, where did they go? The easiest path out of this region is to follow the course of the Danube river downstream, this will automatically lead to lower lying lands without the need to pass an obstacle like the Alps. In the period 3500-3000BC a certain type of luxury pottery was used along the upper Danube from Lake Constance to Lake Balaton (Boleraz ware), which shows that the Danube was used as a corridor for goods/ideas. There are also early models of carts found in this region, so the means to move with a group were also available. The evidence indicates the group followed the Danube downstream to current Hungary/Czechia, and stayed there for a longer time, at least enough generations for a number of SNP-mutations to happen. Listing the Sub-CTS5856 SNP’s found in this region would be too much detail, but it seems a number of sub Z5018 SNP’s mutated while the group was in this region. Less clear but possible is that S3003 and Z5017 mutated here. From a point of view of timing/probability that might seem likely also, as it would be strange for one branch to be several SNP’s deep while another had not yet mutated.

    From a point of view of timing we are now probably somewhere around 2500BC. It seems this might be the same period as when R1b-L151 suddenly boomed and spread all over Northwestern Europe, and in this spread some branches of CTS5856 were also swept along. These branches are generally characterized by a mix of Iberian and British samples, and an absence in SE-Europe. This mix of Iberian and British samples reflects similar mixes in the R1b-L151 descendant groups.

    It would seem R1b in its early stages should have been somewhere near CTS5856 when it was in the Austrian/Hungarian/Czechian region around the Danube, so part of CTS5856 could join R1b groups. Given that the majority of CTS5856 later moved south-east, where there is very little L151, it would seem logic that the overlap/contacts would be in the north, in Czechia or Southeast Germany. It just so happens that South-East Germany is exactly the place where the oldest Ancient dna R1b was found (Kromsdorf, ~2600-2500BC).

    I have no idea why R1b boomed like it did. It would be interesting to know as it might be the same reason why CTS5856 boomed like it did. In fact, if you look at the spread of R1b over Northwest Europe you might think of CTS5856 as the “missing” southeastern branch.

    Mixing in

    Throughout the Balkan CTS5856 seems to appear in a proportion of about 2/1 to M269(xL51), which I’ll call M269* for short. CTS5856 reaches its highest levels in Albania, and M269* does in Kosovo, Macedonia and Serbia. This M269* is quite far from the main line of M269 (L151) and so does not seem connected directly to the R1b that took part of CTS5856 in its migrations as suggested before. It appears that M269* originated near the Caucasus. Yamnaya ancient dna samples that were tested belonged to this group.

    Where did the CTS5856 and M269* meet and mix? Was it in the southern Balkans? There were Yamnaya in Bulgaria, so if CTS5856 descended the Danube they could have mixed with them. But the mixing might also have happened earlier. David Anthony writes that the largest settlement of Yamnaya in the west was in eastern Hungary. This settlement starts at about 3000BC, or roughly equivalent with when CTS5856 would have arrived here. Assuming mixing took place here it seems the CTS5856 group was assimilated in the M269* group (which to be clear would also have contained/assimilated other haplogroups, branches of J2b come to mind). This newly formed group would have had a mostly pastoral lifestyle, and probably used an Indo-European language closer to what was still spoken in the “homeland” (as these Yamnaya had only recently moved from there), and not so close to the languages dispersed by R1b (who would have boomed from a region where corded ware had reached, most likely carrying a branch of Indo-European ancestral to Baltic/Germanic/Celtic/Italic that had split off from the proto Indo European language earlier). This language would have been proto-Greek, thought to have been closer to Armenian than to other Indo-European languages. Armenian can have crossed the Caucasus to the south quite late, replacing/mixing with Urartu.

    From Central-Europe to the Southern Balkans

    Why then did this group move again and arrive in the southern Balkans? I always prefer explanations rooted in natural causes. CTS5856 might have moved from the Alps because of the Piora oscillation. The second movement might have been due to the 4.2kyr event. As the name suggests this event happened about 2200BC. It lasted about a century, and one of the effects was an intense aridification in the eastern Mediterranean. This coincides with the collapse of most of the Early-Helladic civilization in Greece, causing a depopulation of the Greek countryside. Although some centres of Early-Helladic culture continued untouched, others met a violent end. The important Early-Helladic settlement of Lerna was destroyed, and above its central “house of tiles” a Tumulus was erected. Archeologists generally reject any hypothesis of immigration (they assume the Greek language arrived with farmers at the start of the Neolithicum). However, with the current knowledge about CTS5856 and M269* it seems that there certainly was an immigration (unless these group originated in Greece itself).

    A possible scenario is that the aridification had consequences reaching up to the Hungarian plains, maybe good lands for agriculture and/or pastoralism became scarcer because of the draught, or maybe trade suffered from the collapse of societies to the south. It’s imaginable that a group broke away/was forced out and moved south, with a majority of CTS5856 descendants. They went south east along the Danube, and settled in the depopulated countryside of the southern Balkans. In Greece they quickly merged with the remnants of the Early Helladic society to form the basis of the Mycenaean civilization. The Greeks themselves believed they had come from somewhere else, and they believed they had come in two waves. A second wave would have been the Dorians, coming to Greece from the North-west somewhere between the Bronze age collapse (1200BC) and 900BC. Again the archeological specialists doubt there was anything like Dorians and that there was any immigration at all in this period.

    The coming of the Dorians and CTS9320

    If the V13/M269* group had really spread proto Greek to the Southern Balkan, then presumably most of their languages/dialects were still close together by 1200BC (that even seems to have been the case for the native Macedonian language in the hayday of the Macedonians), moreover throughout the Aegean Bronze age there were close ties between Greece proper and Albania. Assuming the 'Dorians' were quasi-Greek speaking mostly CTS5856/M269*’s from Albania there is an interesting possibility: CTS9320 originated much later than the earlier branches of CTS5856. Given its large presence in Albania we might suspect it originated there in a population boom during the Aegean Bronze age, and was an important component of the Dorian tribes. That would explain the spread of this latecomer to Greece, from where it could have spread further to Bulgaria by colonization (or maybe not recorded movements from the west Balkans eastward).

    The Greek colonization and Roman occupation

    The rest of the spread of V13/CTS5856 follows logically from the well recorded Greek colonization. V13/CTS5856 reaches levels comparable to Greece in Southern Italy and Sicily. Later on it would have been spread even wider by Roman occupation, either through Italian legionnaires descended from Greek colonists, or by Thracian troops stationed at the limes and in England. The current CTS5856 in most of Northwestern Europe would then have two principal sources: a first dispersion along with R1b between 3000 and 2000BC, and a second dispersal due to Roman occupation.

    Any thoughts?

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    Small addition from the V13 board:
    About the reason why R1b might have boomed, and some of CTS5856 might have moved to this R1b homeland: The region where I assume these two groups overlapped is Czechia/SE-Germany. The border of Germany and Czechia is marked by the Ore mountains, whose role in metallurgy is evident from their name. They only got this name a few centuries ago, but the mining activity goes back much earlier. About 2500 tin mining started here, allowing the production of tin-bronze. Up to then bronze was made by adding arsenic to copper. The advantage of using tin was that the process was better controllable, demanded no hardening work afterwards, and didn't cause health problems (the arsenic fumes released during melting were toxic). A booming mining industry might explain a population boom, and an attraction to some CTS5856 to go to this region. Maybe some of the R1b movements afterwards were just new mining booms after the Ore mountains were depleted.

    Recent research has questioned whether the Ore mountains were really already mined in the bronze age. The Harz mountains to the northwest might be better candidates (and still fit the picture).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hello rafc, that is very interesting and you seem to be well literate on the subject which is helpful. This would be a great contribution on the "where did E-V13 originate?" thread.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...riginate/page8

    Personally I am believing more and more that E-V13 where it was mutated was a part (and already assimilated to a larger group) rather then just being a clan of its own. From this group there must have been an offshoot that created the bronze age boom which is likely to have happened in the Balkans (south?). It is well believed that E-V13 (or its precursor) has traveled via the Danube, so it would be also possible for e-M78 to have mutated anywhere in the region including the areas you have mentioned. The 7000 year old sample we have from North West Spain is already a minor however important indication that it was with a majority G Clan which seems to have been the major Neolithic group in Europe during this period. The we also have the question of the minor E-V13 presence in Scandinavia that defiantly not linked to any Roman legions as they never conquered the area

    On a different note an Italian surname website my surname indicates its of German origin during the Hapsburg period (which originated in South west Germany) which at some point also ruled Sicily and was documented with military duties (transfered from Sicily to Malta) under the reign of King Ferdinand circa 1370. snp maps cluster my ydna to Southwest Germany and the only exact match is from there too, so what you state is not far fetched. I am A7136 downstream from Z5018. The South German / Swiss / Austrian E-V13 were always a very curious group for me and trying to figure out if they are actually a result of Roman legions or much older then that. Hope we would have the answer one day.

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    A well written and very interesting post rafc. I wish to see more contribution of this level in the future as its always a pleasure to read and learn from more knowledgeable members.

    Unfortunately at this point of the conversation I'll have to wait for more knowledgeable members to post their thoughts as there's not much I can contribute rather than digest and study your theory myself.

    Interesting though, this leads me to look upon the possibility of CTS5856 to be related to Cardium Pottery or Bell Beaker and therefore could have entered Europe through a different route from M269 or simply different periods, where CTS5856 represents the Western Branch found in the Catalonian cave and M269 the Eastern Yamnaya branch.

    Does anyone have any link or map (thats too much i know) that shows the difference in distribution of CTS5856 to M269?

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    Maleth, I agree that V13/CTS5856 was always part of largers groups. It's mostly a lack of deep subclade testing that prevents a good view on what other groups were with them (apart from M269* in the later stages). Hopefully as more and more people do NGS-tests, or a least large panels we'll get a better view of these subbranches from the late neolithic on. Maybe Ancient DNA would help also, if it's tested deep enough.

    Nik, to comment on the neolithic Spanish V13 (I assume it's that you're referring to?): since it has become clear that V13 boomed in the Bronze age, this sample has become very puzzling. The best guess I could make now to explain it is that is V13(xCTS5856), and that in Neolithic Europe V13(xCTS5856) and it's siblings under M78 were present, but are now far outnumbered by the CTS5856 branch and other Bronze age boomers like R1b. The same explanation would work for the M78 that was found in Lengyel and Sopot Adna.

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    Very interesting. I wonder if you have more information regarding CTS9320.

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    I didn't read it. The 'Dorian invasion' isn't a real event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Hello. I’ve been a long time lurker on this board. For the past year I’ve been looking in to the origin and spread of V13. This will be a rather long wall of text describing where I think V13/CTS5858 originated, and how it moved to where it is now. The general view is a southern Balkan origin and subsequent spread north along the Danube, I will suggest it happened the other way around. :)
    I’m curious what the view of others is.

    PS: I had a nice bunch of links to sources and info, but the boards won't let me post them, hopefully it's still clear without them.

    About V13/CTS5856

    Since people on this board are probably not familiar with sub-V13 SNP’s I’ll give a small introduction. According to estimates by the manager of the V13 NGS project the TMRCA of V13 is about 5750 years ago. Roughly 97% of V13 that has been tested downstream is CTS5856+, this SNP has a TMRCA of 4850 years ago. More than 90% of those tested downstream of CTS5856 fall in to four branches: Z5018, Z5017, S7461 and S3003. Of these S3003 is dominated by L540, which has a more recent expansion. Z5017 is dominated by CTS9320 which is also younger than most of the sub Z5018 branches. A very simplified phylogeny would look like this, all TMRCA’s are taken from the V13 NGS project, except for Z5017/18 -> apparently you won't get to see this untill I have 10 posts, I hope the text alone is clear enough.


    The origin

    The general theory is that V13/CTS5856 originated in the southern Balkan since it reaches its highest levels there. Based on recent analysis of V13*, CTS5856*, and its direct descendants, and some info about V13 in the Alps I think otherwise. It seems likely to me that CTS5856 and some of its oldest branches mutated in the border region of Germany, France and Switzerland, near Lake Constance and the sources of the Danube. In this region we find two V13* of the four we know. The Swiss origin of one of them is based on family lore and is not documented, but the family of which they would have descended is attested in Switzerland, so I'll assume it to be correct for now. Maybe these two V13* are related (they have not been NGS-tested), but their STR-profiles are very far apart, which suggests that even if they share a post V13 ancestor, their presence here must go back a long time. Apart from them we find a CTS5856*, a S7461* (the only known, all the rest of S7461 is in a common subbranch) and a Z5018* . Another CTS5856* doesn’t have an origin, but is GD9 from a SE-German. This seems too much to be a coincidence. I have to remark here that some of the CTS5856* have been tested through Big Y which has no coverage for Z5018, and doesn’t always cover Z5017. Since they were not found positive for any sub Z5017 or Z5018 SNP they might be Z5017* or Z5018* rather than CTS5856*, so they would still be very basal.

    Assuming this points us to the origin of CTS5856 we might assume that a mixed, late-neolithic population in the northern Alps contained various branches of V13, from which one (CTS5856) would boom in the Bronze age. Given the presence of Z5018* and S7461* in this region it seems a group of related people moved away from this region of origin. Either they still considered themselves a “clan” of some sorts, and moved together for that reason, or they were part of a bigger movement that also included other Neolithic haplogroups like G-L497 (maybe a village or some villages that formed a tribal group moved, it would not be unlogic for different branches of CTS5856 to be living close to each other). They might have moved as a trickle or in one group, maybe as merchants/artisans, but given the fact that CTS5856 groups are still associated in the Southern Balkans it seems more likely to me that they moved as one group in a relatively short time span, retaining a common identity (even if this was part of a larger group).

    This same region was a border region of the Roman empire, so it’s possible these V13*/CTS5856* arrived here with Roman soldiers from the Balkan. Another option is that they migrated from the Balkan following the Danube upstream. More testing in the Balkans would surely clarify this, but for now I’m inclined to see this as the region of origin rather than the other way around.

    The reason

    If CTS5856 really originated near the Alps, why did this group move? Maybe they were forced because of natural causes. About 3500BC the climate in Europe started worsening, by 3200BC the decline accelerated. The worst conditions are thought to have occurred from 3200BC to 2900BC. This so called “Piora oscillation” was first noticed in the Piora valley in the Alps, and there is evidence that glaciers in the Alps advanced, the tree line descended, and weather was substantially colder and wetter than before. A lot of the late Neolithic population in the Alps lived in “lake dwellings” at lake shores, or even on the lakes, and the level of these lakes rose and was subject to violent floods. Briefly, if you were a farmer in the Alps after 3200BC you had very good reasons to start looking for a better place to live.
    If you look at the TMRCA of CTS5856 on the overview above (4850 years ago), you see this date has to be pushed back only a few percent to have CTS5856 and a few descendants present during the Piora-oscillation.

    The route

    Still assuming the origin of CTS5856 is in the northwestern Alps, and this group started moving under impulse of bad climatic conditions, where did they go? The easiest path out of this region is to follow the course of the Danube river downstream, this will automatically lead to lower lying lands without the need to pass an obstacle like the Alps. In the period 3500-3000BC a certain type of luxury pottery was used along the upper Danube from Lake Constance to Lake Balaton (Boleraz ware), which shows that the Danube was used as a corridor for goods/ideas. There are also early models of carts found in this region, so the means to move with a group were also available. The evidence indicates the group followed the Danube downstream to current Hungary/Czechia, and stayed there for a longer time, at least enough generations for a number of SNP-mutations to happen. Listing the Sub-CTS5856 SNP’s found in this region would be too much detail, but it seems a number of sub Z5018 SNP’s mutated while the group was in this region. Less clear but possible is that S3003 and Z5017 mutated here. From a point of view of timing/probability that might seem likely also, as it would be strange for one branch to be several SNP’s deep while another had not yet mutated.

    From a point of view of timing we are now probably somewhere around 2500BC. It seems this might be the same period as when R1b-L151 suddenly boomed and spread all over Northwestern Europe, and in this spread some branches of CTS5856 were also swept along. These branches are generally characterized by a mix of Iberian and British samples, and an absence in SE-Europe. This mix of Iberian and British samples reflects similar mixes in the R1b-L151 descendant groups.

    It would seem R1b in its early stages should have been somewhere near CTS5856 when it was in the Austrian/Hungarian/Czechian region around the Danube, so part of CTS5856 could join R1b groups. Given that the majority of CTS5856 later moved south-east, where there is very little L151, it would seem logic that the overlap/contacts would be in the north, in Czechia or Southeast Germany. It just so happens that South-East Germany is exactly the place where the oldest Ancient dna R1b was found (Kromsdorf, ~2600-2500BC).

    I have no idea why R1b boomed like it did. It would be interesting to know as it might be the same reason why CTS5856 boomed like it did. In fact, if you look at the spread of R1b over Northwest Europe you might think of CTS5856 as the “missing” southeastern branch.

    Mixing in

    Throughout the Balkan CTS5856 seems to appear in a proportion of about 2/1 to M269(xL51), which I’ll call M269* for short. CTS5856 reaches its highest levels in Albania, and M269* does in Kosovo, Macedonia and Serbia. This M269* is quite far from the main line of M269 (L151) and so does not seem connected directly to the R1b that took part of CTS5856 in its migrations as suggested before. It appears that M269* originated near the Caucasus. Yamnaya ancient dna samples that were tested belonged to this group.

    Where did the CTS5856 and M269* meet and mix? Was it in the southern Balkans? There were Yamnaya in Bulgaria, so if CTS5856 descended the Danube they could have mixed with them. But the mixing might also have happened earlier. David Anthony writes that the largest settlement of Yamnaya in the west was in eastern Hungary. This settlement starts at about 3000BC, or roughly equivalent with when CTS5856 would have arrived here. Assuming mixing took place here it seems the CTS5856 group was assimilated in the M269* group (which to be clear would also have contained/assimilated other haplogroups, branches of J2b come to mind). This newly formed group would have had a mostly pastoral lifestyle, and probably used an Indo-European language closer to what was still spoken in the “homeland” (as these Yamnaya had only recently moved from there), and not so close to the languages dispersed by R1b (who would have boomed from a region where corded ware had reached, most likely carrying a branch of Indo-European ancestral to Baltic/Germanic/Celtic/Italic that had split off from the proto Indo European language earlier). This language would have been proto-Greek, thought to have been closer to Armenian than to other Indo-European languages. Armenian can have crossed the Caucasus to the south quite late, replacing/mixing with Urartu.

    From Central-Europe to the Southern Balkans

    Why then did this group move again and arrive in the southern Balkans? I always prefer explanations rooted in natural causes. CTS5856 might have moved from the Alps because of the Piora oscillation. The second movement might have been due to the 4.2kyr event. As the name suggests this event happened about 2200BC. It lasted about a century, and one of the effects was an intense aridification in the eastern Mediterranean. This coincides with the collapse of most of the Early-Helladic civilization in Greece, causing a depopulation of the Greek countryside. Although some centres of Early-Helladic culture continued untouched, others met a violent end. The important Early-Helladic settlement of Lerna was destroyed, and above its central “house of tiles” a Tumulus was erected. Archeologists generally reject any hypothesis of immigration (they assume the Greek language arrived with farmers at the start of the Neolithicum). However, with the current knowledge about CTS5856 and M269* it seems that there certainly was an immigration (unless these group originated in Greece itself).

    A possible scenario is that the aridification had consequences reaching up to the Hungarian plains, maybe good lands for agriculture and/or pastoralism became scarcer because of the draught, or maybe trade suffered from the collapse of societies to the south. It’s imaginable that a group broke away/was forced out and moved south, with a majority of CTS5856 descendants. They went south east along the Danube, and settled in the depopulated countryside of the southern Balkans. In Greece they quickly merged with the remnants of the Early Helladic society to form the basis of the Mycenaean civilization. The Greeks themselves believed they had come from somewhere else, and they believed they had come in two waves. A second wave would have been the Dorians, coming to Greece from the North-west somewhere between the Bronze age collapse (1200BC) and 900BC. Again the archeological specialists doubt there was anything like Dorians and that there was any immigration at all in this period.

    The coming of the Dorians and CTS9320

    If the V13/M269* group had really spread proto Greek to the Southern Balkan, then presumably most of their languages/dialects were still close together by 1200BC (that even seems to have been the case for the native Macedonian language in the hayday of the Macedonians), moreover throughout the Aegean Bronze age there were close ties between Greece proper and Albania. Assuming the 'Dorians' were quasi-Greek speaking mostly CTS5856/M269*’s from Albania there is an interesting possibility: CTS9320 originated much later than the earlier branches of CTS5856. Given its large presence in Albania we might suspect it originated there in a population boom during the Aegean Bronze age, and was an important component of the Dorian tribes. That would explain the spread of this latecomer to Greece, from where it could have spread further to Bulgaria by colonization (or maybe not recorded movements from the west Balkans eastward).

    The Greek colonization and Roman occupation

    The rest of the spread of V13/CTS5856 follows logically from the well recorded Greek colonization. V13/CTS5856 reaches levels comparable to Greece in Southern Italy and Sicily. Later on it would have been spread even wider by Roman occupation, either through Italian legionnaires descended from Greek colonists, or by Thracian troops stationed at the limes and in England. The current CTS5856 in most of Northwestern Europe would then have two principal sources: a first dispersion along with R1b between 3000 and 2000BC, and a second dispersal due to Roman occupation.

    Any thoughts?
    thanks

    IIRC, did not the ancient Dorians invade Greece from modern Albania lands ..............archaeology found a lot of doric samples which where later replaced by Corinthian samples in Albania ............the earliest Corinthian would be ~700BC
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I didn't read it. The 'Dorian invasion' isn't a real event.
    If you didn't read it, then how did you guess I mentioned the Dorian invasion?

    Btw, I'm not saying it is real, more that there could be a grain of truth or a real historical event that inspired these stories, and that could fit some of the V13 data.

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    Thanks Sile, I didn't know that. How did they determine these were "Doric" and "Corinthian" samples? Do you have a link to a study maybe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaschalisB View Post
    Very interesting. I wonder if you have more information regarding CTS9320.
    Thank you. All I can say about CTS9320 is it seems to have a southern Balkan origin, and despite it's young age it's spread all over Europe. It seems to me to be very connected to Greek colonisation. A new CTS9320 project has just been started at FTDNA, you might be interested to join it (I can't post the link but you can find it in the projects section there). Also on the E3b board there are regular updates on this SNP (google haplozone e3b).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    If you didn't read it, then how did you guess I mentioned the Dorian invasion?

    Btw, I'm not saying it is real, more that there could be a grain of truth or a real historical event that inspired these stories, and that could fit some of the V13 data.
    He read the paragraph titles:

    The coming of the Dorians and CTS9320

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    Good Point XD

    But it still could have been a paragraph about how all of that was fake

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    I'm quite skeptical that it spread SE from central Europe. It pretty much disappears west of Austria, but is found at lower levels in Spain and Britain. E-V13 specifically is at a reasonable frequency in Italy too. There is definitely a correlation with other farmer-immigrant type of haplogroups such as G and J2. Why did E-V13 survive in the Balkans and G2 only leave a trace? They may have arrived in different waves, and it's possible E-V13 was a bit later. If the amount of research went into E-V13 that went into R1b, we might have a better idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    On a different note an Italian surname website my surname indicates its of German origin during the Hapsburg period (which originated in South west Germany) which at some point also ruled Sicily and was documented with military duties (transfered from Sicily to Malta) under the reign of King Ferdinand circa 1370. snp maps cluster my ydna to Southwest Germany and the only exact match is from there too, so what you state is not far fetched. I am A7136 downstream from Z5018. The South German / Swiss / Austrian E-V13 were always a very curious group for me and trying to figure out if they are actually a result of Roman legions or much older then that. Hope we would have the answer one day.
    One small point of clarification, as at 1370, the Sicilian crown was a cadet branch of Aragon, in other words a separate line which ruled the Kingdom of Trinacria independently from Aragon (noting that the Sicilian Vespers was only 90 years earlier, and from that time, for about two hundred years, there were effectively two separate Kingdoms of Sicily). Federico III di Sicilia, il Semplice was the King of Sicily in 1370, also known as Federico IV d'Aragona, as noted earlier, this was a cadet branch of Aragon.

    In 1530, Charles I of Spain, also Charles V Holy Roman Emperor, gave the Islands of Malta and Gozo to the Knights Hospitaller in perpetual fiefdom, effectively separating Malta from the Kingdom of Sicily (although that separation was only formally confirmed in the early 1800s).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    One small point of clarification, as at 1370, the Sicilian crown was a cadet branch of Aragon, in other words a separate line which ruled the Kingdom of Trinacria independently from Aragon (noting that the Sicilian Vespers was only 90 years earlier, and from that time, for about two hundred years, there were effectively two separate Kingdoms of Sicily). Federico III di Sicilia, il Semplice was the King of Sicily in 1370, also known as Federico IV d'Aragona, as noted earlier, this was a cadet branch of Aragon.

    In 1530, Charles I of Spain, also Charles V Holy Roman Emperor, gave the Islands of Malta and Gozo to the Knights Hospitaller in perpetual fiefdom, effectively separating Malta from the Kingdom of Sicily (although that separation was only formally confirmed in the early 1800s).
    Indeed it was king Frederico (the simple) not Ferdinand, I always confuse the two names. The monarch situation in the region was fast changing since Roger the Norman.

    Technically the Maltese Islands were still part of Sicily loaned to the Knights of St John for a symbolic price of a falcon per year being paid on the 1st of November. King Charles of Spain was also the ruler of Sicily at the time. In the treaty there were agreements for no aggression towards Sicily and having Italian admirals as preference on their ships. Sicilian (Italian?) was also the lingua franca of the order, even though the French orders (Provenance, Avignon and Auvergne) were by far the largest language. The Knights were ousted by Napoleon and the real separation from Sicily happened when the British took over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Hello. I’ve been a long time lurker on this board. For the past year I’ve been looking in to the origin and spread of V13. This will be a rather long wall of text describing where I think V13/CTS5858 originated, and how it moved to where it is now. The general view is a southern Balkan origin and subsequent spread north along the Danube, I will suggest it happened the other way around. :)
    I’m curious what the view of others is.

    PS: I had a nice bunch of links to sources and info, but the boards won't let me post them, hopefully it's still clear without them.

    About V13/CTS5856

    Since people on this board are probably not familiar with sub-V13 SNP’s I’ll give a small introduction. According to estimates by the manager of the V13 NGS project the TMRCA of V13 is about 5750 years ago. Roughly 97% of V13 that has been tested downstream is CTS5856+, this SNP has a TMRCA of 4850 years ago. More than 90% of those tested downstream of CTS5856 fall in to four branches: Z5018, Z5017, S7461 and S3003. Of these S3003 is dominated by L540, which has a more recent expansion. Z5017 is dominated by CTS9320 which is also younger than most of the sub Z5018 branches. A very simplified phylogeny would look like this, all TMRCA’s are taken from the V13 NGS project, except for Z5017/18 -> apparently you won't get to see this untill I have 10 posts, I hope the text alone is clear enough.


    The origin

    The general theory is that V13/CTS5856 originated in the southern Balkan since it reaches its highest levels there. Based on recent analysis of V13*, CTS5856*, and its direct descendants, and some info about V13 in the Alps I think otherwise. It seems likely to me that CTS5856 and some of its oldest branches mutated in the border region of Germany, France and Switzerland, near Lake Constance and the sources of the Danube. In this region we find two V13* of the four we know. The Swiss origin of one of them is based on family lore and is not documented, but the family of which they would have descended is attested in Switzerland, so I'll assume it to be correct for now. Maybe these two V13* are related (they have not been NGS-tested), but their STR-profiles are very far apart, which suggests that even if they share a post V13 ancestor, their presence here must go back a long time. Apart from them we find a CTS5856*, a S7461* (the only known, all the rest of S7461 is in a common subbranch) and a Z5018* . Another CTS5856* doesn’t have an origin, but is GD9 from a SE-German. This seems too much to be a coincidence. I have to remark here that some of the CTS5856* have been tested through Big Y which has no coverage for Z5018, and doesn’t always cover Z5017. Since they were not found positive for any sub Z5017 or Z5018 SNP they might be Z5017* or Z5018* rather than CTS5856*, so they would still be very basal.

    Assuming this points us to the origin of CTS5856 we might assume that a mixed, late-neolithic population in the northern Alps contained various branches of V13, from which one (CTS5856) would boom in the Bronze age. Given the presence of Z5018* and S7461* in this region it seems a group of related people moved away from this region of origin. Either they still considered themselves a “clan” of some sorts, and moved together for that reason, or they were part of a bigger movement that also included other Neolithic haplogroups like G-L497 (maybe a village or some villages that formed a tribal group moved, it would not be unlogic for different branches of CTS5856 to be living close to each other). They might have moved as a trickle or in one group, maybe as merchants/artisans, but given the fact that CTS5856 groups are still associated in the Southern Balkans it seems more likely to me that they moved as one group in a relatively short time span, retaining a common identity (even if this was part of a larger group).

    This same region was a border region of the Roman empire, so it’s possible these V13*/CTS5856* arrived here with Roman soldiers from the Balkan. Another option is that they migrated from the Balkan following the Danube upstream. More testing in the Balkans would surely clarify this, but for now I’m inclined to see this as the region of origin rather than the other way around.

    The reason

    If CTS5856 really originated near the Alps, why did this group move? Maybe they were forced because of natural causes. About 3500BC the climate in Europe started worsening, by 3200BC the decline accelerated. The worst conditions are thought to have occurred from 3200BC to 2900BC. This so called “Piora oscillation” was first noticed in the Piora valley in the Alps, and there is evidence that glaciers in the Alps advanced, the tree line descended, and weather was substantially colder and wetter than before. A lot of the late Neolithic population in the Alps lived in “lake dwellings” at lake shores, or even on the lakes, and the level of these lakes rose and was subject to violent floods. Briefly, if you were a farmer in the Alps after 3200BC you had very good reasons to start looking for a better place to live.
    If you look at the TMRCA of CTS5856 on the overview above (4850 years ago), you see this date has to be pushed back only a few percent to have CTS5856 and a few descendants present during the Piora-oscillation.

    The route

    Still assuming the origin of CTS5856 is in the northwestern Alps, and this group started moving under impulse of bad climatic conditions, where did they go? The easiest path out of this region is to follow the course of the Danube river downstream, this will automatically lead to lower lying lands without the need to pass an obstacle like the Alps. In the period 3500-3000BC a certain type of luxury pottery was used along the upper Danube from Lake Constance to Lake Balaton (Boleraz ware), which shows that the Danube was used as a corridor for goods/ideas. There are also early models of carts found in this region, so the means to move with a group were also available. The evidence indicates the group followed the Danube downstream to current Hungary/Czechia, and stayed there for a longer time, at least enough generations for a number of SNP-mutations to happen. Listing the Sub-CTS5856 SNP’s found in this region would be too much detail, but it seems a number of sub Z5018 SNP’s mutated while the group was in this region. Less clear but possible is that S3003 and Z5017 mutated here. From a point of view of timing/probability that might seem likely also, as it would be strange for one branch to be several SNP’s deep while another had not yet mutated.

    From a point of view of timing we are now probably somewhere around 2500BC. It seems this might be the same period as when R1b-L151 suddenly boomed and spread all over Northwestern Europe, and in this spread some branches of CTS5856 were also swept along. These branches are generally characterized by a mix of Iberian and British samples, and an absence in SE-Europe. This mix of Iberian and British samples reflects similar mixes in the R1b-L151 descendant groups.

    It would seem R1b in its early stages should have been somewhere near CTS5856 when it was in the Austrian/Hungarian/Czechian region around the Danube, so part of CTS5856 could join R1b groups. Given that the majority of CTS5856 later moved south-east, where there is very little L151, it would seem logic that the overlap/contacts would be in the north, in Czechia or Southeast Germany. It just so happens that South-East Germany is exactly the place where the oldest Ancient dna R1b was found (Kromsdorf, ~2600-2500BC).

    I have no idea why R1b boomed like it did. It would be interesting to know as it might be the same reason why CTS5856 boomed like it did. In fact, if you look at the spread of R1b over Northwest Europe you might think of CTS5856 as the “missing” southeastern branch.

    Mixing in

    Throughout the Balkan CTS5856 seems to appear in a proportion of about 2/1 to M269(xL51), which I’ll call M269* for short. CTS5856 reaches its highest levels in Albania, and M269* does in Kosovo, Macedonia and Serbia. This M269* is quite far from the main line of M269 (L151) and so does not seem connected directly to the R1b that took part of CTS5856 in its migrations as suggested before. It appears that M269* originated near the Caucasus. Yamnaya ancient dna samples that were tested belonged to this group.

    Where did the CTS5856 and M269* meet and mix? Was it in the southern Balkans? There were Yamnaya in Bulgaria, so if CTS5856 descended the Danube they could have mixed with them. But the mixing might also have happened earlier. David Anthony writes that the largest settlement of Yamnaya in the west was in eastern Hungary. This settlement starts at about 3000BC, or roughly equivalent with when CTS5856 would have arrived here. Assuming mixing took place here it seems the CTS5856 group was assimilated in the M269* group (which to be clear would also have contained/assimilated other haplogroups, branches of J2b come to mind). This newly formed group would have had a mostly pastoral lifestyle, and probably used an Indo-European language closer to what was still spoken in the “homeland” (as these Yamnaya had only recently moved from there), and not so close to the languages dispersed by R1b (who would have boomed from a region where corded ware had reached, most likely carrying a branch of Indo-European ancestral to Baltic/Germanic/Celtic/Italic that had split off from the proto Indo European language earlier). This language would have been proto-Greek, thought to have been closer to Armenian than to other Indo-European languages. Armenian can have crossed the Caucasus to the south quite late, replacing/mixing with Urartu.

    From Central-Europe to the Southern Balkans

    Why then did this group move again and arrive in the southern Balkans? I always prefer explanations rooted in natural causes. CTS5856 might have moved from the Alps because of the Piora oscillation. The second movement might have been due to the 4.2kyr event. As the name suggests this event happened about 2200BC. It lasted about a century, and one of the effects was an intense aridification in the eastern Mediterranean. This coincides with the collapse of most of the Early-Helladic civilization in Greece, causing a depopulation of the Greek countryside. Although some centres of Early-Helladic culture continued untouched, others met a violent end. The important Early-Helladic settlement of Lerna was destroyed, and above its central “house of tiles” a Tumulus was erected. Archeologists generally reject any hypothesis of immigration (they assume the Greek language arrived with farmers at the start of the Neolithicum). However, with the current knowledge about CTS5856 and M269* it seems that there certainly was an immigration (unless these group originated in Greece itself).

    A possible scenario is that the aridification had consequences reaching up to the Hungarian plains, maybe good lands for agriculture and/or pastoralism became scarcer because of the draught, or maybe trade suffered from the collapse of societies to the south. It’s imaginable that a group broke away/was forced out and moved south, with a majority of CTS5856 descendants. They went south east along the Danube, and settled in the depopulated countryside of the southern Balkans. In Greece they quickly merged with the remnants of the Early Helladic society to form the basis of the Mycenaean civilization. The Greeks themselves believed they had come from somewhere else, and they believed they had come in two waves. A second wave would have been the Dorians, coming to Greece from the North-west somewhere between the Bronze age collapse (1200BC) and 900BC. Again the archeological specialists doubt there was anything like Dorians and that there was any immigration at all in this period.

    The coming of the Dorians and CTS9320

    If the V13/M269* group had really spread proto Greek to the Southern Balkan, then presumably most of their languages/dialects were still close together by 1200BC (that even seems to have been the case for the native Macedonian language in the hayday of the Macedonians), moreover throughout the Aegean Bronze age there were close ties between Greece proper and Albania. Assuming the 'Dorians' were quasi-Greek speaking mostly CTS5856/M269*’s from Albania there is an interesting possibility: CTS9320 originated much later than the earlier branches of CTS5856. Given its large presence in Albania we might suspect it originated there in a population boom during the Aegean Bronze age, and was an important component of the Dorian tribes. That would explain the spread of this latecomer to Greece, from where it could have spread further to Bulgaria by colonization (or maybe not recorded movements from the west Balkans eastward).

    The Greek colonization and Roman occupation

    The rest of the spread of V13/CTS5856 follows logically from the well recorded Greek colonization. V13/CTS5856 reaches levels comparable to Greece in Southern Italy and Sicily. Later on it would have been spread even wider by Roman occupation, either through Italian legionnaires descended from Greek colonists, or by Thracian troops stationed at the limes and in England. The current CTS5856 in most of Northwestern Europe would then have two principal sources: a first dispersion along with R1b between 3000 and 2000BC, and a second dispersal due to Roman occupation.

    Any thoughts?
    Very interesting


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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Hello. I’ve been a long time lurker on this board. For the past year I’ve been looking in to the origin and spread of V13. This will be a rather long wall of text describing where I think V13/CTS5858 originated, and how it moved to where it is now. The general view is a southern Balkan origin and subsequent spread north along the Danube, I will suggest it happened the other way around. :)
    I’m curious what the view of others is.

    PS: I had a nice bunch of links to sources and info, but the boards won't let me post them, hopefully it's still clear without them.

    About V13/CTS5856

    Since people on this board are probably not familiar with sub-V13 SNP’s I’ll give a small introduction. According to estimates by the manager of the V13 NGS project the TMRCA of V13 is about 5750 years ago. Roughly 97% of V13 that has been tested downstream is CTS5856+, this SNP has a TMRCA of 4850 years ago. More than 90% of those tested downstream of CTS5856 fall in to four branches: Z5018, Z5017, S7461 and S3003. Of these S3003 is dominated by L540, which has a more recent expansion. Z5017 is dominated by CTS9320 which is also younger than most of the sub Z5018 branches. A very simplified phylogeny would look like this, all TMRCA’s are taken from the V13 NGS project, except for Z5017/18 -> apparently you won't get to see this untill I have 10 posts, I hope the text alone is clear enough.


    The origin

    The general theory is that V13/CTS5856 originated in the southern Balkan since it reaches its highest levels there. Based on recent analysis of V13*, CTS5856*, and its direct descendants, and some info about V13 in the Alps I think otherwise. It seems likely to me that CTS5856 and some of its oldest branches mutated in the border region of Germany, France and Switzerland, near Lake Constance and the sources of the Danube. In this region we find two V13* of the four we know. The Swiss origin of one of them is based on family lore and is not documented, but the family of which they would have descended is attested in Switzerland, so I'll assume it to be correct for now. Maybe these two V13* are related (they have not been NGS-tested), but their STR-profiles are very far apart, which suggests that even if they share a post V13 ancestor, their presence here must go back a long time. Apart from them we find a CTS5856*, a S7461* (the only known, all the rest of S7461 is in a common subbranch) and a Z5018* . Another CTS5856* doesn’t have an origin, but is GD9 from a SE-German. This seems too much to be a coincidence. I have to remark here that some of the CTS5856* have been tested through Big Y which has no coverage for Z5018, and doesn’t always cover Z5017. Since they were not found positive for any sub Z5017 or Z5018 SNP they might be Z5017* or Z5018* rather than CTS5856*, so they would still be very basal.

    Assuming this points us to the origin of CTS5856 we might assume that a mixed, late-neolithic population in the northern Alps contained various branches of V13, from which one (CTS5856) would boom in the Bronze age. Given the presence of Z5018* and S7461* in this region it seems a group of related people moved away from this region of origin. Either they still considered themselves a “clan” of some sorts, and moved together for that reason, or they were part of a bigger movement that also included other Neolithic haplogroups like G-L497 (maybe a village or some villages that formed a tribal group moved, it would not be unlogic for different branches of CTS5856 to be living close to each other). They might have moved as a trickle or in one group, maybe as merchants/artisans, but given the fact that CTS5856 groups are still associated in the Southern Balkans it seems more likely to me that they moved as one group in a relatively short time span, retaining a common identity (even if this was part of a larger group).

    This same region was a border region of the Roman empire, so it’s possible these V13*/CTS5856* arrived here with Roman soldiers from the Balkan. Another option is that they migrated from the Balkan following the Danube upstream. More testing in the Balkans would surely clarify this, but for now I’m inclined to see this as the region of origin rather than the other way around.

    The reason

    If CTS5856 really originated near the Alps, why did this group move? Maybe they were forced because of natural causes. About 3500BC the climate in Europe started worsening, by 3200BC the decline accelerated. The worst conditions are thought to have occurred from 3200BC to 2900BC. This so called “Piora oscillation” was first noticed in the Piora valley in the Alps, and there is evidence that glaciers in the Alps advanced, the tree line descended, and weather was substantially colder and wetter than before. A lot of the late Neolithic population in the Alps lived in “lake dwellings” at lake shores, or even on the lakes, and the level of these lakes rose and was subject to violent floods. Briefly, if you were a farmer in the Alps after 3200BC you had very good reasons to start looking for a better place to live.
    If you look at the TMRCA of CTS5856 on the overview above (4850 years ago), you see this date has to be pushed back only a few percent to have CTS5856 and a few descendants present during the Piora-oscillation.

    The route

    Still assuming the origin of CTS5856 is in the northwestern Alps, and this group started moving under impulse of bad climatic conditions, where did they go? The easiest path out of this region is to follow the course of the Danube river downstream, this will automatically lead to lower lying lands without the need to pass an obstacle like the Alps. In the period 3500-3000BC a certain type of luxury pottery was used along the upper Danube from Lake Constance to Lake Balaton (Boleraz ware), which shows that the Danube was used as a corridor for goods/ideas. There are also early models of carts found in this region, so the means to move with a group were also available. The evidence indicates the group followed the Danube downstream to current Hungary/Czechia, and stayed there for a longer time, at least enough generations for a number of SNP-mutations to happen. Listing the Sub-CTS5856 SNP’s found in this region would be too much detail, but it seems a number of sub Z5018 SNP’s mutated while the group was in this region. Less clear but possible is that S3003 and Z5017 mutated here. From a point of view of timing/probability that might seem likely also, as it would be strange for one branch to be several SNP’s deep while another had not yet mutated.

    From a point of view of timing we are now probably somewhere around 2500BC. It seems this might be the same period as when R1b-L151 suddenly boomed and spread all over Northwestern Europe, and in this spread some branches of CTS5856 were also swept along. These branches are generally characterized by a mix of Iberian and British samples, and an absence in SE-Europe. This mix of Iberian and British samples reflects similar mixes in the R1b-L151 descendant groups.

    It would seem R1b in its early stages should have been somewhere near CTS5856 when it was in the Austrian/Hungarian/Czechian region around the Danube, so part of CTS5856 could join R1b groups. Given that the majority of CTS5856 later moved south-east, where there is very little L151, it would seem logic that the overlap/contacts would be in the north, in Czechia or Southeast Germany. It just so happens that South-East Germany is exactly the place where the oldest Ancient dna R1b was found (Kromsdorf, ~2600-2500BC).

    I have no idea why R1b boomed like it did. It would be interesting to know as it might be the same reason why CTS5856 boomed like it did. In fact, if you look at the spread of R1b over Northwest Europe you might think of CTS5856 as the “missing” southeastern branch.

    Mixing in

    Throughout the Balkan CTS5856 seems to appear in a proportion of about 2/1 to M269(xL51), which I’ll call M269* for short. CTS5856 reaches its highest levels in Albania, and M269* does in Kosovo, Macedonia and Serbia. This M269* is quite far from the main line of M269 (L151) and so does not seem connected directly to the R1b that took part of CTS5856 in its migrations as suggested before. It appears that M269* originated near the Caucasus. Yamnaya ancient dna samples that were tested belonged to this group.

    Where did the CTS5856 and M269* meet and mix? Was it in the southern Balkans? There were Yamnaya in Bulgaria, so if CTS5856 descended the Danube they could have mixed with them. But the mixing might also have happened earlier. David Anthony writes that the largest settlement of Yamnaya in the west was in eastern Hungary. This settlement starts at about 3000BC, or roughly equivalent with when CTS5856 would have arrived here. Assuming mixing took place here it seems the CTS5856 group was assimilated in the M269* group (which to be clear would also have contained/assimilated other haplogroups, branches of J2b come to mind). This newly formed group would have had a mostly pastoral lifestyle, and probably used an Indo-European language closer to what was still spoken in the “homeland” (as these Yamnaya had only recently moved from there), and not so close to the languages dispersed by R1b (who would have boomed from a region where corded ware had reached, most likely carrying a branch of Indo-European ancestral to Baltic/Germanic/Celtic/Italic that had split off from the proto Indo European language earlier). This language would have been proto-Greek, thought to have been closer to Armenian than to other Indo-European languages. Armenian can have crossed the Caucasus to the south quite late, replacing/mixing with Urartu.

    From Central-Europe to the Southern Balkans

    Why then did this group move again and arrive in the southern Balkans? I always prefer explanations rooted in natural causes. CTS5856 might have moved from the Alps because of the Piora oscillation. The second movement might have been due to the 4.2kyr event. As the name suggests this event happened about 2200BC. It lasted about a century, and one of the effects was an intense aridification in the eastern Mediterranean. This coincides with the collapse of most of the Early-Helladic civilization in Greece, causing a depopulation of the Greek countryside. Although some centres of Early-Helladic culture continued untouched, others met a violent end. The important Early-Helladic settlement of Lerna was destroyed, and above its central “house of tiles” a Tumulus was erected. Archeologists generally reject any hypothesis of immigration (they assume the Greek language arrived with farmers at the start of the Neolithicum). However, with the current knowledge about CTS5856 and M269* it seems that there certainly was an immigration (unless these group originated in Greece itself).

    A possible scenario is that the aridification had consequences reaching up to the Hungarian plains, maybe good lands for agriculture and/or pastoralism became scarcer because of the draught, or maybe trade suffered from the collapse of societies to the south. It’s imaginable that a group broke away/was forced out and moved south, with a majority of CTS5856 descendants. They went south east along the Danube, and settled in the depopulated countryside of the southern Balkans. In Greece they quickly merged with the remnants of the Early Helladic society to form the basis of the Mycenaean civilization. The Greeks themselves believed they had come from somewhere else, and they believed they had come in two waves. A second wave would have been the Dorians, coming to Greece from the North-west somewhere between the Bronze age collapse (1200BC) and 900BC. Again the archeological specialists doubt there was anything like Dorians and that there was any immigration at all in this period.

    The coming of the Dorians and CTS9320

    If the V13/M269* group had really spread proto Greek to the Southern Balkan, then presumably most of their languages/dialects were still close together by 1200BC (that even seems to have been the case for the native Macedonian language in the hayday of the Macedonians), moreover throughout the Aegean Bronze age there were close ties between Greece proper and Albania. Assuming the 'Dorians' were quasi-Greek speaking mostly CTS5856/M269*’s from Albania there is an interesting possibility: CTS9320 originated much later than the earlier branches of CTS5856. Given its large presence in Albania we might suspect it originated there in a population boom during the Aegean Bronze age, and was an important component of the Dorian tribes. That would explain the spread of this latecomer to Greece, from where it could have spread further to Bulgaria by colonization (or maybe not recorded movements from the west Balkans eastward).

    The Greek colonization and Roman occupation

    The rest of the spread of V13/CTS5856 follows logically from the well recorded Greek colonization. V13/CTS5856 reaches levels comparable to Greece in Southern Italy and Sicily. Later on it would have been spread even wider by Roman occupation, either through Italian legionnaires descended from Greek colonists, or by Thracian troops stationed at the limes and in England. The current CTS5856 in most of Northwestern Europe would then have two principal sources: a first dispersion along with R1b between 3000 and 2000BC, and a second dispersal due to Roman occupation.

    Any thoughts?


    I guess you did not even know who the Dorians were.

    and High concentration of V-13 has nothing to do Dorians, rather with Achaians,
    R1a is closer to Dorians than V-13
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    One small point of clarification, as at 1370, the Sicilian crown was a cadet branch of Aragon, in other words a separate line which ruled the Kingdom of Trinacria independently from Aragon (noting that the Sicilian Vespers was only 90 years earlier, and from that time, for about two hundred years, there were effectively two separate Kingdoms of Sicily). Federico III di Sicilia, il Semplice was the King of Sicily in 1370, also known as Federico IV d'Aragona, as noted earlier, this was a cadet branch of Aragon.

    In 1530, Charles I of Spain, also Charles V Holy Roman Emperor, gave the Islands of Malta and Gozo to the Knights Hospitaller in perpetual fiefdom, effectively separating Malta from the Kingdom of Sicily (although that separation was only formally confirmed in the early 1800s).
    Sicily as island becomes an independent kingdom from 1282 to 1416 with a dinasty descendent of Hauteville/Hohenstaufen intermarried with an Aragonese king, so it was the original "national" dinasty, when the mainland part of the kingdom remained to the French usurper (Angevins), than after 1416 Sicily became part of Iberian kingdoms, later the mainland part of the kingdom became integrated as well into Crown of Aragon with Alphonse of Trastamara. Malta of course remained part of Sicily untile Napoleonic invasion of Malta, the knights were local "administrators" or to better say protectors of christianity but always part of Spanish crown.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Tomorrow we'll be launching a new V13-SNP pack at FTDNA. I updated and extended my previous text on CTS5856 for the occasion. The result is longer and can be read here:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3t...ew?usp=sharing

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I’m curious what the view of others is.

    Any thoughts?
    Raf,
    After reading for months E-V13 articles and studying the E-V13 distribution maps, this is what I have been expecting all along....Romans may have contributed in spreading even further but findings of E-V13 in Spain ~7800 ybp logically it means E-v13 has been browsing in EU for at least a couple of thousands of years before romans...

    I'm not expert or knowledgeable in this field, but I find your article quite in sync with e-v13 map distribution and findings we have so far...

    Great article!
    Last edited by drroots; 16-06-17 at 20:49. Reason: romans contribution

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    Thanks drroots. If you read the document linked in my previous post you will see I assume the Spanish V13 belonged to a sidebranch of V13 upstream of CTS5856 (or rather Z1057), which in all likelyhood is extinct now.

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    Dear Rafc!

    I think this theory can be the closest to reality. Congratulations.

    Maybe the mixing happened more east. The Carpathian Basin's Bronze age was exceptionally rich. Here, Hungary, or more to east, the eastern side of the Carpathian mountains, today Romania, Moldova or Ukraina. Maybe this is the reason why contain the R1a cultures a minority of EV13. Slavs, Indo-iranians like kurds and some Inner-Asian people.

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    Do not provoke me,otherwise everything related to your dear beloved Ulyanov will be indeed history.

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    And maybe supported this theory: Inside CTS9320, we find so many Z17107+. Almost all are Z38456+ too and they live in the Balkans everywhere. (Albania, Croatia, Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece) At this time, I know 3 people, who are certified Z17107+, but negative all known subclade(include Z38456), and none of them live in the Balkans. A russian near Krasnodar, a hungarian from Northeast Hungary, and the last one from Kentucky - but their ancestors emigrated from former Hungary at 1890, and they were ruthenians.

    So I think, the Z17107 formed north of the Balkans about 1100 BC, and later split into two parts.
    One of them moved south, (maybe with the proto-illyrian Vucedol culture, and among them the Z38456 mutation was created.)
    The other parts left to the north, and there is not any Z38456 among them.

    Every subclade of the CTS9320 was formed around 1100 BC.-according the YFULL.

    If this is true, the CTS9320 tribes or clans, only after that migrated to the Balkan with proto-illyrians and proto-tharcians, or with other unidentified tribes. (dorians maybe?)

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