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Thread: HarappaWorld Gedmatch, post and compare your admixtures to ancient and contemporary.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
    new updated PCAs.


    with ancient samples















    without ancient samples







    Excellent work. Thank you.

    Lots of food for thought there.

    Hungary Bronze Age, which so often shows up when looking at Italian genetics is very close to Germany South. Since Remedello, Northern Italy moved a bit "north", Tuscany a bit "south", but the real movement has been "east".

    Does Greece Ionia refer to the Ionian islands off the west coast of Mainland Greece or Ionian Greece in antiquity?


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Excellent work. Thank you.

    Lots of food for thought there.

    Hungary Bronze Age, which so often shows up when looking at Italian genetics is very close to Germany South. Since Remedello, Northern Italy moved a bit "north", Tuscany a bit "south", but the real movement has been "east".

    Does Greece Ionia refer to the Ionian islands off the west coast of Mainland Greece or Ionian Greece in antiquity?
    Modern Ionian Sea Greek islands.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Modern Ionian Sea Greek islands.
    Thanks, LeBrok...

    Interesting: on the PCA they appear to be the closest Greek population to South Italy/Sicily, yes? In the Greek dna paper the Peloponnese, which is also across the Ionian Sea from those parts of Italy, was the closest population to Sicily. Of course, this could just be coincidence based on a small sample size, but interesting none the less. Those Greek islands might have been relatively insulated from Slavic genetic flow in the early Middle Ages.

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    LeBrok, are there any decent ancient Cardial samples from southern areas? As you said, it would be great if a Greek Neolithic sample was available too.

    It would be interesting to compare them both to the Greek samples from relatively isolated areas and to Italy South and Sicily samples, especially Italy South because you don't have any confounding Medieval Berber or Levantine/Arabian admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    LeBrok, are there any decent ancient Cardial samples from southern areas? As you said, it would be great if a Greek Neolithic sample was available too.

    It would be interesting to compare them both to the Greek samples from relatively isolated areas and to Italy South and Sicily samples, especially Italy South because you don't have any confounding Medieval Berber or Levantine/Arabian admixture.
    Maybe this one is from Spain:

    M471235 I0412 M405327 I1506 NE1 M572125 I0054
    Spain, Els Trocs 7kya Hungary, Polgár-Ferenci-hát 7.2kya Stuttgart LBK
    Run time 5.2 Run time 19.95 Run time 8.99
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch - Baloch - Baloch -
    Caucasian 13.46 Caucasian 28.27 Caucasian 30.6
    NE-Euro 7.07 NE-Euro 12.13 NE-Euro 7.82
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 72.28 Mediterranean 45.75 Mediterranean 49.46
    SW-Asian 7.08 SW-Asian 13.45 SW-Asian 12.01
    San - San - San 0.11
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.11 Pygmy 0.05 Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African 0.35 W-African -


    It is somewhat different than the guys from Central Europe, but still in the family. It is shifted towards Mediterranean, classic for Spain and Italy. It bares no relation to Levant Neolithic which is very high in SW Asian, and much lower Med.

    M115616 I0867
    Levant Neolithic
    Run time 9.93
    S-Indian -
    Baloch -
    Caucasian 25.97
    NE-Euro -
    SE-Asian 0.07
    Siberian -
    NE-Asian 0.06
    Papuan -
    American -
    Beringian -
    Mediterranean 32.53
    SW-Asian 39.86
    San -
    E-African 1.52
    Pygmy -
    W-African -

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    Phoenician?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Maybe this one is from Spain:

    M471235 I0412 M405327 I1506 NE1 M572125 I0054
    Spain, Els Trocs 7kya Hungary, Polgár-Ferenci-hát 7.2kya Stuttgart LBK
    Run time 5.2 Run time 19.95 Run time 8.99
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch - Baloch - Baloch -
    Caucasian 13.46 Caucasian 28.27 Caucasian 30.6
    NE-Euro 7.07 NE-Euro 12.13 NE-Euro 7.82
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 72.28 Mediterranean 45.75 Mediterranean 49.46
    SW-Asian 7.08 SW-Asian 13.45 SW-Asian 12.01
    San - San - San 0.11
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.11 Pygmy 0.05 Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African 0.35 W-African -


    It is somewhat different than the guys from Central Europe, but still in the family. It is shifted towards Mediterranean, classic for Spain and Italy. It bares no relation to Levant Neolithic which is very high in SW Asian, and much lower Med.

    M115616 I0867
    Levant Neolithic
    Run time 9.93
    S-Indian -
    Baloch -
    Caucasian 25.97
    NE-Euro -
    SE-Asian 0.07
    Siberian -
    NE-Asian 0.06
    Papuan -
    American -
    Beringian -
    Mediterranean 32.53
    SW-Asian 39.86
    San -
    E-African 1.52
    Pygmy -
    W-African -
    Thanks, LeBroc

    Interesting that Cardial has less SWAsian, and less "Caucasian", but much more Mediterranean than the others.

    Also interesting that South Italians and Sicilians today have the same amount of SW Asian today as Stuttgart and Hungary Neolithic had thousands of years ago. Quite a coincidence if that's what it is.

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    Wow! Mr Levant Neolithic is the king of southern-ness...
    .25 Caucasus, .32 mediterranran, .39 percent sw asian? Nobody scores at least .25 across all three of these components. Ancient samples can be fascinating

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks, LeBroc

    Interesting that Cardial has less SWAsian, and less "Caucasian", but much more Mediterranean than the others.

    Also interesting that South Italians and Sicilians today have the same amount of SW Asian today as Stuttgart and Hungary Neolithic had thousands of years ago. Quite a coincidence if that's what it is.
    So far I can't explain it in another way that genetic drift. Some Caucasian admixture have changed into Med.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Wow! Mr Levant Neolithic is the king of southern-ness...
    .25 Caucasus, .32 mediterranran, .39 percent sw asian? Nobody scores at least .25 across all three of these components. Ancient samples can be fascinating
    maybe nat-geno old tests for phoenician ( north levant admixture )

    Ancient maritime traders of the Mediterranean may have left behind a large genetic footprint in the region, where 1 in 17 men still harbors Phoenician DNA, according to a new study.

    The findings could fill a gap in the history of the Phoenician civilization, which originated two to three thousand years ago in the eastern Mediterranean—in what is now Lebanon and Syria—and included prominent traders, according to Chris Tyler-Smith, lead author and associate researcher at National Geographic Society's Genographic Project. (The National Geographic Society owns National Geographic News.)
    Genetics gives an alluring clue. The Lebanese, the descendants of the Phoenicians, cluster with the Northern Middle East (along with Kurds and Armenians). This is significant because both Kurds and Armenians are Indo-Iranian groups—nations that speak Indo-European languages (not Semitic ones).


    revealed that north-levant peoples came from the north of the zargos mountains and the south-levant came from negrev/North-east africa .............the admixture "war" happened in modern south lebanon

    It fits with the late bronze age hittite empire of the levant
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Thanks to Mlukas, we have two decent quality Neolithic Greek samples. Seems that Geek Neolithic wasn't much different from the rest of Balkans and West Anatolia. This is from Zuzana Hofmanova paper.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886.abstract

    First one is Early Neolithic from mainland Greece, the other is Late Neolithic from close by. Third sample is from Barcin Anatolia, forth is from EN Hungary. We can see that Greek samples plot between them, and generally in group of Anatolian and European Neolithic samples.

    Z394045 I0406 Z732775 klei10 M897077 I0707 M405327 I1506 NE1
    Greece, Revenia EN, 8.5kya Greece, Kleitos LN, 6.5kya Anatolia, Barcin EN, 9kya Hungary, Polgár-Ferenci-hát 7.2kya
    Run time 6.86 Run time 8.36 Run time 12.07 Run time 19.95
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch - Baloch - Baloch - Baloch -
    Caucasian 28.9 Caucasian 34.58 Caucasian 37.64 Caucasian 28.27
    NE-Euro 4.28 NE-Euro 3.84 NE-Euro 0.86 NE-Euro 12.13
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian 1.04 SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian 1.15 NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.61 Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American 0.12 American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 45.25 Mediterranean 44.45 Mediterranean 47.24 Mediterranean 45.75
    SW-Asian 12.2 SW-Asian 13.14 SW-Asian 14 SW-Asian 13.45
    San - San 0.08 San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy 0.05
    W-African 7.56 W-African 2.74 W-African 0.27 W-African 0.35

    The late Neolithic Greek is almost identical to Barcin Anatolia, though 2ky younger. It just has 3 point more of NE Euro, which is understandable going deeper into WHG country. However, the EN Greek is a bit peculiar with much less Caucasian and interestingly 7.56% of West African. Some W African in ancient european samples is noise but not 7 percent. I believe it must be due to this sample being a bit small, which can affect admixture proportions. Unless someone has alternative explanation?

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    7.56% West African?

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    opulation
    S-Indian -
    Baloch 8.07
    Caucasian 25.87
    NE-Euro 28.30
    SE-Asian 0.12
    Siberian -
    NE-Asian -
    Papuan -
    American 0.19
    Beringian -
    Mediterranean 28.61
    SW-Asian 8.81
    San -
    E-African -
    Pygmy -
    W-African -

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    7.56% West African?
    I added a comment at the end of that post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LM22 View Post
    opulation
    S-Indian -
    Baloch 8.07
    Caucasian 25.87
    NE-Euro 28.30
    SE-Asian 0.12
    Siberian -
    NE-Asian -
    Papuan -
    American 0.19
    Beringian -
    Mediterranean 28.61
    SW-Asian 8.81
    San -
    E-African -
    Pygmy -
    W-African -
    Thanks, are you Gheg Albanian?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    maybe nat-geno old tests for phoenician ( north levant admixture )

    Ancient maritime traders of the Mediterranean may have left behind a large genetic footprint in the region, where 1 in 17 men still harbors Phoenician DNA, according to a new study.

    The findings could fill a gap in the history of the Phoenician civilization, which originated two to three thousand years ago in the eastern Mediterranean—in what is now Lebanon and Syria—and included prominent traders, according to Chris Tyler-Smith, lead author and associate researcher at National Geographic Society's Genographic Project. (The National Geographic Society owns National Geographic News.)
    Genetics gives an alluring clue. The Lebanese, the descendants of the Phoenicians, cluster with the Northern Middle East (along with Kurds and Armenians). This is significant because both Kurds and Armenians are Indo-Iranian groups—nations that speak Indo-European languages (not Semitic ones).


    revealed that north-levant peoples came from the north of the zargos mountains and the south-levant came from negrev/North-east africa .............the admixture "war" happened in modern south lebanon

    It fits with the late bronze age hittite empire of the levant
    Cool post, Sile. Phoenicians are interesting...I read from a cracked article that they've been recorded by various monarchs throughout the Middle East and Southern Europe....yet no one could figure out where they came from or who they even were to begin with. They were a real mystery!!

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I did some tests with the Minoans and Mycenaeans. Their results ​​change a lot from calculator to calculator, but there is a constant, especially the Mycenaeans are very Sardinian-shifted. Not all samples are of the same quality, often the gedmatch's calculators use only a small number of SNPs for their evaluation. The most problematic is Crete Armenoi, indeed a low quality sample, it has very inconsistent results on gedmatch, and seems to vary a lot from calculator to calculator, shifting sometimes towards northwestern Europe, sometimes towards northeastern Europe, and sometimes even towards Sardinians.


    Updated PCA with Minoans and Mycenaeans. Greece_N is I2937.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
    I did some tests with the Minoans and Mycenaeans. Their results ​​change a lot from calculator to calculator, but there is a constant, especially the Mycenaeans are very Sardinian-shifted. Not all samples are of the same quality, often the gedmatch's calculators use only a small number of SNPs for their evaluation. The most problematic is Crete Armenoi, indeed a low quality sample, it has very inconsistent results on gedmatch, and seems to vary a lot from calculator to calculator, shifting sometimes towards northwestern Europe, sometimes towards northeastern Europe, and sometimes even towards Sardinians.
    Thanks Pratt, could you share their GEDmatch kit numbers in this thread, please:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...th-kit-numbers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
    I did some tests with the Minoans and Mycenaeans. Their results ​​change a lot from calculator to calculator, but there is a constant, especially the Mycenaeans are very Sardinian-shifted. Not all samples are of the same quality, often the gedmatch's calculators use only a small number of SNPs for their evaluation. The most problematic is Crete Armenoi, indeed a low quality sample, it has very inconsistent results on gedmatch, and seems to vary a lot from calculator to calculator, shifting sometimes towards northwestern Europe, sometimes towards northeastern Europe, and sometimes even towards Sardinians.


    Updated PCA with Minoans and Mycenaeans. Greece_N is I2937.
    Interesting that the Mycenaeans plot so differently here (and on other amateur calcs) compared to the Lazaridis PCA. Also of note is how much more southerly they are compared to Sicilians and south Italians here, whereas in the Lazaridis plot they're very close. Any reason for such contrast?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Thanks Pratt, could you share their GEDmatch kit numbers in this thread, please:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...th-kit-numbers

    yes of course

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    The bottom most mycenaean is quite an outlier. He can't play well with the others : p

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Have a look at the pic below. It thic PCA means anything, it indicates that shift from Minoans to Mycenaeans occurred through mix from Yamnaya rather than Armenica BA. I made three circles, one for Minoans, one for Mycenaeans and one for Modern Greeks. Greeks move with time in straight line towards Yamnaya.

    HarappaWorld PCA, Greeks.jpg

    However if Minoans were not representative of Greeks on mainland, and were totally replaced by Mycenaeans, then it makes sense to use Greek Neolithic as a starting point and draw a line to Bronze Age Armenia. Interestingly we go through Mycenaeans and East Islanders with Crete included, all in straight line. We are missing Greece Mainland, because it was shifted towards East Europe by Slavs and maybe few others.

    HarappaWorld PCA, Greeks2.jpg

  24. #549
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Have a look at the pic below. It thic PCA means anything, it indicates that shift from Minoans to Mycenaeans occurred through mix from Yamnaya rather than Armenica BA. I made three circles, one for Minoans, one for Mycenaeans and one for Modern Greeks. Greeks move with time in straight line towards Yamnaya.

    HarappaWorld PCA, Greeks.jpg

    However if Minoans were not representative of Greeks on mainland, and were totally replaced by Mycenaeans, then it makes sense to use Greek Neolithic as a starting point and draw a line to Bronze Age Armenia. Interestingly we go through Mycenaeans and East Islanders with Crete included, all in straight line. We are missing Greece Mainland, because it was shifted towards East Europe by Slavs and maybe few others.

    HarappaWorld PCA, Greeks2.jpg
    Very interesting.

    In case you don't have all these numbers for the ancient samples:

    M063398 Bar31 Anatolian Neolithic, Barcin, Turkey, 6419-6238 calBCE
    M220828 AH2 Early PPN Tepe Abdul Hosein Iran 8205-7756 calBCE (10215-976)
    M249214 GD13A-I1290 Early Neolithic Ganj Dareh Iran 8179-7613 calBCE
    M392829 WC1 Wezmeh Cave, Iran 7455-7082 calBCE (9465-9092 ybp)
    M417000 Bon002 Early PPN Central Anatolia Boncuklu 8279-7977 BCE)
    M423599 I0867 Levant PPNB Motza Israel 7300-6750 BCE (9310-8760 BP)
    M510029 tep002 Tepecik-Çiftlik (level 5) c. 6500 BCE (> 8500 BP)
    M572712 Klei10 L. Greek Neolithic, Kleitos, 4230–3995 BCE (6240-6005 BP)
    M608390 Hotu IIIb Hotu Cave Iran Mesolithic 9100-8600 BCE)
    M658611 Rev5 Greek Neolithic Revenia 6438–6264 BCE (8448-8274 BP)
    M701826 Bon002 depth>=2 Early PPN Central Anatolia Boncuklu 8279-7977 BCE
    M711494 Bar8 Anatolian Neolithic, Barcin, 6212-6030 BCE (8222-8040 ybp)

  25. #550
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    Isn't this calculator a bit outdated at this point?

    Anyway, here's my contribution.

    Population
    S-Indian 0.44
    Baloch 8.00
    Caucasian 19.49
    NE-Euro 41.45
    SE-Asian -
    Siberian 0.96
    NE-Asian 1.51
    Papuan 0.39
    American -
    Beringian 1.30
    Mediterranean 22.71
    SW-Asian 3.74
    San -
    E-African -
    Pygmy -
    W-African -

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