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Thread: HarappaWorld Gedmatch, post and compare your admixtures to ancient and contemporary.

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Yamnaya did not have Mediterranean, but Sintashta did have it:HarappaWorld:Kit F999968 (Yamnaya RISE548):Admix Results (sorted):# Population Percent1 NE-Euro 63.872 Baloch 30.143 Caucasian 3.644 American 1.325 Mediterranean 0.67 (noise-level)6 W-African 0.367 E-African 0.01Kit M690970 (Sintashta RISE386):Admix Results (sorted):# Population Percent1 NE-Euro 57.82 Mediterranean 19.923 Baloch 18.54 Caucasian 2.015 W-African 1.26 Beringian 0.56
    But it is in a very different ration NE_Euro vs. Mediterranean = 2.9 : 1

    while those who brought NE_Euro/Med had a different proportion, that means they belonged to a different ethnic group, their ratio was 1 : 1.73.

    so it is:

    2.9 : 1 vs. 1 : 1.73


    Copper Age Armenians are much closer to this ration and a better match! And it is much more credible, since Copper Age Armenians were neighbors of Copper Age Iranians. This is the main reason why Caucasian auDNA didn't drop that much.


    Also, there was absolutely no migration from Sintashta. That's impossible! BMAC which was proto-East Iranian was much older than Sintashta!


    And now we have got now enough evidence that the Steppes were massively colonized / Iranized by ancient Iranians. Both archeological and ancient DNA that Iranians from the Iranian Plateau colonized the Steppes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    But it is in a very different ration NE_Euro vs. Mediterranean = 2.9 : 1

    while those who brought NE_Euro/Med had a different proportion, that means they belonged to a different ethnic group, their ratio was 1 : 1.73.

    so it is:

    2.9 : 1 vs. 1 : 1.73


    Copper Age Armenians are much closer to this ration and a better match! And it is much more credible, since Copper Age Armenians were neighbors of Copper Age Iranians. This is the main reason why Caucasian auDNA didn't drop that much.
    Copper Age Armenians are much closer to this ration and a better match! And it is much more credible, since Copper Age Armenians were neighbors of Copper Age Iranians. This is the main reason why Caucasian auDNA didn't drop that much, while Baloch dropped much more.

    Caucasian auDNA went from 49.91 to 47.6 = (47.6 - 49.91) / 49.91 x 100 = -4.63 %
    Gedrosia auDNA went from 37.82 to 29.17 = (29.17 - 37.82 ) / 37.82 x 100 = -22.88 %


    Gedrosia dropped by 22.88 % , while Caucasian dropped by just 4.63 %! If there was a migration from the Steppes, Gedrosia would never drop by 22.88 % , while Caucasian auDNA drop just by 4.63 %..

    According to HarappaWorld calculator the Steppes don't have much of Caucasian auDNA. If there was a migration from the Steppes into Iran, the Caucasian auDNA in Western Iran would drop by much, much more than 4.63 %, while Gedrosia would never drop by 22.88 %.

    This is the best EVIDENCE that there was no migration from the Steppes, but from the Armenian Plateau into Iran between Copper and Bronze Age!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The main difference in Eurogenes K15 is much higher "Atlantic" for Sintashta/Andronovo/Srubnaya.

    This "Atlantic" is strange, because both Mesolithic HG and Early Neolithic Anatolian Farmers score it.

    Anatolian and Early European Farmers score a lot of West Med and East Med. Steppe people do not.

    Samara & Karelia EHG don't score "Atlantic", but share "North Sea", "Baltic" & "East Euro" with WHG.
    The Eurogenes K15 calculator is obviously much less helpful for these purposes because it includes a very mixed "component" like "Atlantic".

    The Eurasia K14, on the other hand, seems very helpful. In the thousand year period between Yamnaya and Srubnaya, there was significant admixture with a mixed EEF/WHG-SHG population. Those samples from Srubnaya and Sintashta are 40-45% "farmer". (I'm not including the perhaps 40% "southern" ancestry in Yamnaya because I don't know if those people were already "farmers" when they entered the steppe.)

    Tomenable: SW Asian and some fraction of Mediterranean came in a separate migration.
    I don't see any evidence of that. The admixture analysis is pretty clear that the admixture was with MN type people. Even in the EEF, the "SW Asian" was around, what, 12%? It was there, but in minor percentages. By the MN it had gotten whittled down. Then the further admixture with Yamnaya like people made it disappear. That's all I see happening here.

    LeBrok:Chalcolithic Anatolia and Armenia is strongly pulled towards Europe/Steppe. It is closer to it than to Iranian Neolithic or CHG. This is what I'm getting from Harappa admixtures too.
    Chalcolithic Iran is also pulled down and left. Down due to Levant/Baloch admixture and left due to Steppe/NE Euro.
    Iran Recent plots with Armenia, again half way to Steppe/Euro from Iranian Neolithic.
    Often I find PCA distances more telling than admixtures.
    Chalcolithic Anatolia is certainly different from Neolithic Anatolia, but they weren't pulled toward EHG, were they? Doesn't it seem like they're pulled way up toward Iran Neolithic? Chalcolithic Iran does look like it's pulled some way toward EHG. I don't know about Armenia Chalcolithic. Until we have Neolithic samples from there it's hard to say. Was Neolithic Armenia similar to Neolithic Anatolia or were they always closer to Iran Neolithic?

    This is the same process (for Anatolia Chalcolithic) as for Italians and south Europeans in general, isn't it? Modern populations aren't any more or only slightly more pulled toward WHG and EHG than were MN central Europeans. Most of the pull is due to increased "CHG" type admixture. How is that possible though, if the Indo-Europeans who arrived were mixed EHG/CHG like? I've been asking the same question since these papers came out. Unless, perhaps, by that time the Indo-Europeans who arrived in southern Europe weren't very "EHG" or "WHG" like. Still, they weren't Srubnaya like with all that CHG were they?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    If you look closer you can see that modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia.

    Modern Iranians still plot MUCH closer to the Neolithic Iran than to Bronze Age Steppe. And VERY close to Chalcolithic Iran. It seems that Iranians didn't change much since the Chalcolithic Iran.
    Isn't there Iran Recent (down pointing triangle) among Armenians?


    What do mean with 'Levant/Baloch' in the same sentence? You mean because Levant went up & Baloch went down? Baloch is very different from Levant and both have nothing to with each other. Actually because of Baloch Iranians were shifted up north, closer to ancient ANE.
    Right, I meant Neolithic Levant/SW Asian.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Isn't there Iran Recent (down pointing triangle) among Armenians?


    Right, I meant Neolithic Levant/SW Asian.
    Just look at the little blue squares which represent modern Iranians. Modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia. Modern Iranians are even more shifted up to north than Chalcolithic Iran.
    Blue circles represent modern Armenians. Armenians are more shifted toward south.


    Modern population:






    And here is the old population:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    SW Asian and some fraction of Mediterranean came in a separate migration.
    I didn't do the math but that fraction would be more than 2/3 of it.

    If a culture had, let's say:

    Mediterranean ~55
    NE Euro ~25
    SW Asian ~20

    it would fit better.

    Not that this is how it happened, though. I am not doing science now..

    I don't know if what you say is mathematically possible because Shintasha has ~19% 'Baloch', but 'Baloch' decreases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I didn't do the math but that fraction would be more than 2/3 of it.

    If a culture had, let's say:

    Mediterranean ~55
    NE Euro ~25
    SW Asian ~20

    it would fit better.

    Not that this is how it happened, though. I am not doing science now..

    I don't know if what you say is mathematically possible because Shintasha has ~19% 'Baloch', but 'Baloch' decreases.
    And Shintasha has apparently not much Caucasian admixture. That Baloch decreases is not an issue. Baloch decreases by 22.88 %!!! That's a lot. While Caucasian auDNA in Iron Age Iranians decrease only by 4.63%. How is it possible when Shintasha doesn't have Caucasian at all ?

    It has to be other population. Those who mixed with Copper Age Iranians should have at least 40 % Caucasian admixture. And voila: Armenian Chalcolithic (Copper Age) had 41.35 % of Caucasian. That's why Caucasian auDNA in Iranian dropped just by 4 % points !!!

    Everything makes sense, from Caucasian auDNA to Baloch/Gedrosia, NE_European,
    Mediterranean, SW_Asian. Copper Age Armenians are the best proxies who mixed with the Copper Age Iranians. And it makes lots of sense, since both groups are neighboring each other.

    Shintasha is absolutely disqualified as a source of Euro ancestry in Iranians. While the Copper Age Armenians are at this moment the best source population!


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Other calculators are consistent with the idea of excess Iran Neolithic/CHG ancestry in the Sycthian. Check out this new calculator. Looks very real. It could be from admixture with Yamnaya-types(They still existed after rise of R1a-Z93 folk. A few have been found in Timber Grave R1a-Z93 burials) or anywhere from the Caucasus to Southern Asia. The Sycthian's R1a is definitely from his Bronze age European ancestors and not from Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Just look at the little blue squares which represent modern Iranians. Modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia. Modern Iranians are even more shifted up to north than Chalcolithic Iran.
    Blue circles represent modern Armenians. Armenians are more shifted toward south.
    They are in between Iran Ch and Armenia Ch/EBA. Definitely today's Iranians are pulled in straight line towards Bronze Age Steppe. From PCA looks like they have mixed about 15% with Bronze Age Steppe, judging by the distance shift. On other hand EHG (2ky before that) were pulled in straight line towards Iranian Neolithic. From the shift distance I would assume about 25% Mix with IN. It means that IN went to Steppe for mixing, IN in Iran wasn't affected. Iranian farmers migrated there.
    Later it reversed and in Bronze Age "Steppe Bronze Age" went to Iran and mixed in, shifting ICh to the left, on the chart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    They are in between Iran Ch and Armenia Ch/EBA. Definitely today's Iranians are pulled in straight line towards Bronze Age Steppe. From PCA looks like they have mixed about 15% with Bronze Age Steppe, judging by the distance shift. On other hand EHG (2ky before that) were pulled in straight line towards Iranian Neolithic. From the shift distance I would assume about 25% Mix with IN. It means that IN went to Steppe for mixing, IN in Iran wasn't affected. Iranian farmers migrated there.
    Later it reversed and in Bronze Age "Steppe Bronze Age" went to Iran and mixed in, shifting ICh to the left, on the chart.
    Of course. This is undeniable.

    But so what?

    A lot North West Asians (non Iranics) have Steppes admixture. People in Northern Caucasus have much more Steppes ancestry. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Iran is very minor. And it is from a very different population that you have in mind. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran is obviously from Copper Age Armenians. Just very little is from the European part of the Steppes that came with the backmigration of the Scythians. There is enough documention for this and if you examine the Y-DNA of Western Iranians/Kurds you will find out that there is also Y-DNA hg. I2a in West Asia. And that hg. I2a is not from Central Asia..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Of course. This is undeniable.

    But so what?

    A lot North West Asians (non Iranics) have Steppes admixture. People in Northern Caucasus have much more Steppes ancestry. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Iran is very minor. And it is from a very different population that you have in mind. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran is obviously from Copper Age Armenians. Just very little is from the European part of the Steppes that came with the backmigration of the Scythians.
    PCA chart doesn't agree with it. If Steppe admixture came from CA Armenia, then modern Iranians would be pulled towards CA Armenia. Instead Modern Iranians are pulled towards BA Steppe. This agrees with the theory of Steppe invasion of Middle East during Bronze Age.

    It is interesting how Modern Armenians plot so differently than Copper Age ones. They must have mixed substantially with Syria/Jordan/Arab people. CA Armenians were more like Modern Turkey population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    PCA chart doesn't agree with it. If Steppe admixture came from CA Armenia, then modern Iranians would be pulled towards CA Armenia. Instead Modern Iranians are pulled towards BA Steppe. This agrees with the theory of Steppe invasion of Middle East during Bronze Age.

    It is interesting how Modern Armenians plot so differently than Copper Age ones. They must have mixed substantially with Syria/Jordan/Arab people. CA Armenians were more like Modern Turkey population.
    Huh? I don't see it. PCA is actually in agreement with my point.

    Modern day Iranians plot between Copper Age Armenians and Copper Age Iranians.

    Iranians assimilated also many Hurrians that's why modern Iranians shift a little bit more toward the Northern Caucasians that Copper Age Iranians. I'm sure that the Hurrians had also some NE_European ancestry.


    I think that many Copper Age Armenians were assimilated by the Iranid (Aryan) people.

    Like I said, modern Western Iranians (Kurds & Persians) have for about ~15 % of Hurrian/Armenian ancestry..

    How could that happen in Bronze Age WHEN Copper Age Armenians already had NE_European ancestry...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Huh? I don't see it. PCA is actually in agreement with my point.

    Modern day Iranians plot between Copper Age Armenians and Copper Age Iranians.

    Iranians assimilated also many Hurrians that's why modern Iranians shift a little bit more toward the Northern Caucasians that Copper Age Iranians. I'm sure that the Hurrians had also some NE_European ancestry.


    I think that many Copper Age Armenians were assimilated by the Iranid (Aryan) people.

    Like I said, modern Western Iranians (Kurds & Persians) have for about ~15 % of Hurrian/Armenian ancestry..

    How could that happen in Bronze Age WHEN Copper Age Armenians already had NE_European ancestry...
    To make my point more clear here is Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld for Caucasian people + Kurds + Iranians.

    As you can see Caucasians/Hurrians have more NE_European component than Iranians. NE_Europe component has NOTHING to do with Iranians. Only Baloch/Gedrosia is actually the PUREST Iranid component.


    As I said to you Western Iranians assimilated many Hurrians/Caucasians. Some of NE_European in Iranians came from the Hurrians/Caucasians, some from Copper Age Armenians and very little directly from Europe with the Scythians

    Population S-Indian Baloch Caucasian NE-Euro SE-Asian Siberian NE-Asian Papuan American Beringian Mediterranean SW-Asian San E-African Pygmy W-African
    abhkasian 0.33 18.49 69.15 7.62 0.40 0.83 0.42 0.26 0.30 0.71 0.67 0.71 0.02 0.02 0.01 0.07
    adygei 0.53 18.38 56.60 16.37 0.58 3.10 1.01 0.30 0.53 0.67 1.70 0.23 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
    armenian 0.41 17.07 57.29 5.35 0.10 0.29 0.16 0.26 0.22 0.23 8.21 10.40 0.00 0.01 0.00 0.00
    armenian 2.12 18.25 46.35 3.32 0.13 0.72 0.92 1.63 0.07 0.62 10.29 14.55 0.57 0.35 0.11 0.00
    armenian 0.52 17.65 56.61 2.95 0.13 0.09 0.09 0.27 0.18 0.20 8.40 12.91 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
    azeri 3.03 19.73 45.69 7.84 0.04 3.83 1.41 0.29 0.27 1.36 6.36 9.50 0.12 0.13 0.21 0.17
    chechen 0.15 22.44 51.00 20.05 0.40 1.89 0.62 0.30 0.91 0.70 0.87 0.67 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
    georgian 0.29 17.46 71.97 6.38 0.12 0.33 0.23 0.32 0.24 0.37 1.10 1.16 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.00
    georgian 0.05 19.93 62.40 6.08 0.40 0.26 0.79 0.55 0.18 0.86 1.83 6.38 0.22 0.06 0.00 0.00
    iranian 3.93 27.42 38.80 4.14 0.47 0.95 0.52 0.39 0.34 0.48 4.98 15.08 0.14 0.81 0.30 1.26
    iranian 3.69 27.14 40.66 5.33 0.54 1.80 1.49 0.65 0.39 1.11 5.17 11.35 0.21 0.30 0.14 0.03
    kumyk 0.38 21.20 47.50 16.16 0.57 3.73 2.85 0.36 0.67 0.61 2.82 3.12 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.00
    kurd 3.01 25.64 41.13 4.69 0.43 1.29 0.58 0.81 0.62 0.87 6.38 13.37 0.38 0.55 0.24 0.00
    kurd 0.75 27.90 44.12 4.87 0.30 0.57 0.28 0.39 0.75 0.51 4.86 13.94 0.12 0.32 0.13 0.19
    kurd 1.56 26.52 45.34 5.55 0.32 0.49 0.58 0.38 0.38 0.19 5.67 12.81 0.09 0.05 0.07 0.00
    lezgin 0.02 28.15 46.69 20.10 0.14 1.05 0.32 0.14 0.92 0.84 0.74 0.88 0.02 0.01 0.00 0.00
    stalskoe 0.07 23.71 40.73 20.55 1.65 2.76 0.81 0.59 1.56 1.34 3.97 1.55 0.20 0.07 0.24 0.21
    urkarah 0.27 27.90 43.17 24.08 0.45 1.05 0.00 0.39 1.10 0.90 0.11 0.29 0.06 0.06 0.12 0.05
    north-ossetian 0.28 19.35 45.41 13.79 0.97 5.35 3.10 1.41 1.32 0.57 4.12 3.08 0.51 0.00 0.75 0.00
    north-ossetian 0.10 18.43 56.38 14.71 0.27 3.91 2.92 0.39 0.55 1.14 1.08 0.10 0.01 0.01 0.00 0.00

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    Just notice how much East Iranian Ossetians -who are direct descendants of Eastern Iranian Alanians- have of that NE_Euro admixture. Those Eastern Iranian speaking Alanians were related to the Scythians

    Notice also how much of NE_Europe admixture in Hurrian Lezgins from Dagestan Lezgins are Hurrians people and speak a Northeast Caucasian language (Hurrian). Of all Hurrians they have actually even more Baloch admixture than Kurds/Iranians. I think those Lezgians are heavily Iranized by ancient Medes who lived in Azerbaijan. Genetically Lezgians are even more Iranid than their East Iranian speaking neighbors the Ossetians. Also Hurrian Urkarah from Dagestan are very similar to Lezgin brothers.

    Look also at the Hurrians Chechens. They have also very much Baloch & NE_European ancestry. But like all other Hurrians Baloch is always higher than NE_European ancestry.


    And REAL modern Hurrians don't have much of SW_Asian admixture. Instead they have more NE_Europe component.


    Many of those Hurrians were assimilated by the Copper Age Iranid (Aryan) people. So, this is also the source of NE_European ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran.


    NE_European ancestry in Kurdistan and Western Iran is mostly from the Copper Age Armenians and Hurrians !



    So sport, who are you kidding? And stop dreaming and get real ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Just notice how much East Iranian Ossetians -who are direct descendants of Eastern Iranian Alanians- have of that NE_Euro admixture. Those Eastern Iranian speaking Alanians were related to the Scythians

    Notice also how much of NE_Europe admixture in Hurrian Lezgins from Dagestan Lezgins are Hurrians people and speak a Northeast Caucasian language (Hurrian). Of all Hurrians they have actually even more Baloch admixture than Kurds/Iranians. I think those Lezgians are heavily Iranized by ancient Medes who lived in Azerbaijan. Genetically Lezgians are even more Iranid than their East Iranian speaking neighbors the Ossetians. Also Hurrian Urkarah from Dagestan are very similar to Lezgin brothers.

    Look also at the Hurrians Chechens. They have also very much Baloch & NE_European ancestry. But like all other Hurrians Baloch is always higher than NE_European ancestry.


    And REAL modern Hurrians don't have much of SW_Asian admixture. Instead they have more NE_Europe component.


    Many of those Hurrians were assimilated by the Copper Age Iranid (Aryan) people. So, this is also the source of NE_European ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran.


    NE_European ancestry in Kurdistan and Western Iran is mostly from the Copper Age Armenians and Hurrians !



    So sport, who are you kidding? And stop dreaming and get real ...


    I hope you are not following this ....below

    http://aschmann.net/BibleChronology/Genesis10.pdf

    The very basic principal is that if a haplogroup comes from K-M9 tree it is west-asian and south-asian and hence non-semitic ...............

    who does not have this marker has a chance to be an origin of the semitic race , so many jews claim they are jewish when their origins say otherwise...............

    .but we all know semitic is now part of a language tree and so anyone ( haplo marker ) can have it
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I hope you are not following this ....below

    http://aschmann.net/BibleChronology/Genesis10.pdf

    The very basic principal is that if a haplogroup comes from K-M9 tree it is west-asian and south-asian and hence non-semitic ...........religious fables ..............

    who does not have this marker has a chance to be an origin of the semitic race , so many jews claim they are jewish when their origins say otherwise...............

    .but we all know semitic is now part of a language tree and so anyone ( haplo marker ) can have it
    Thank you very much for sharing it. This is new for me, so I don't follow it. I'll read it.

    I do agree with you that haplogroups are older than 'races'. I still do believe that Semitic languages were born when some clades of Y-DNA 'E' mixed with some subclades of Y-DNA hg. 'J1'.

    Jews are VERY mixed people. Jews from Europe, Africa and Central Asia are all very different from each other. Still they share the same religion and language. But I do believe that deep roots of all Jews lie in the Levant (Judea). There is still something Semitic about all kind of Jews. European Jews are still not really European. They are between Southern Europe and Levant. African Jews are still not the same as black African. African Jews are still more shifted toward the Levant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is the same process (for Anatolia Chalcolithic) as for Italians and south Europeans in general, isn't it? Modern populations aren't any more or only slightly more pulled toward WHG and EHG than were MN central Europeans. Most of the pull is due to increased "CHG" type admixture. How is that possible though, if the Indo-Europeans who arrived were mixed EHG/CHG like? I've been asking the same question since these papers came out. Unless, perhaps, by that time the Indo-Europeans who arrived in southern Europe weren't very "EHG" or "WHG" like. Still, they weren't Srubnaya like with all that CHG were they?

    Mariya Ivanova in her study of the pre-historic cultures around the Black Sea stresses that the technology from the Chalcolithic onward tended to spread across what she calls the 'Royal Road' - a corridor connecting the Near Eastern highlands, Anatolia and the Balkans, terminating in the Carpathian Basin. The grasslands north of the Caucasus on the other hand weren't very well suited to the spread of innovation due to their low effective population density and the lack of discernible social organization, the Royal Road thus being the most immediate vector for the dispersal of technology into Europe.

    My hypothesis that there was a separate migration emanating out of the Taurus-Zagros range or the surrounding areas (which comprises most hotbeds of human innovation from the Chalcolithic until historic times) into south-eastern Europe, causing the somewhat elevated affinity to the Iran-Caucasus populations found in the Balkans, the Aegean and parts of Italy today. Indeed, the sudden appearances of the various deliberately produced bronze alloys in the European Mediterranean and the hypothetical concomitant migrations could have already had a enough of an impact to cause a substantial shift to the Near East before the onset of the Iron Age.

    Ivanova believes that the emergence of the Baden complex, for example, was one the results of these impetuses from the Near East. Recently specialists alluded to similar affinities of the early Baden culture and see the Bulgarian Yunatsite and Ezero cultures as early entry points into Europe from West Asia [source: Lolita Nikolova. Balkan-Anatolian Cultural Horizons from the Fourth Millennium BC and Their Relations to the Baden Cultural Complex].

    Irrespective of the precise nature of these migrations, Ivanova's "The Black Sea and the Early Civilizations of Europe, the Near East, and Asia" is a rare gem and the processes she describes might be key for understanding the peopling of southern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post

    Mariya Ivanova in her study of the pre-historic cultures around the Black Sea stresses that the technology from the Chalcolithic onward tended to spread across what she calls the 'Royal Road' - a corridor connecting the Near Eastern highlands, Anatolia and the Balkans, terminating in the Carpathian Basin. The grasslands north of the Caucasus on the other hand weren't very well suited to the spread of innovation due to their low effective population density and the lack of discernible social organization, the Royal Road thus being the most immediate vector for the dispersal of technology into Europe.

    My hypothesis that there was a separate migration emanating out of the Taurus-Zagros range or the surrounding areas (which comprises most hotbeds of human innovation from the Chalcolithic until historic times) into south-eastern Europe, causing the somewhat elevated affinity to the Iran-Caucasus populations found in the Balkans, the Aegean and parts of Italy today. Indeed, the sudden appearances of the various deliberately produced bronze alloys in the European Mediterranean and the hypothetical concomitant migrations could have already had a enough of an impact to cause a substantial shift to the Near East before the onset of the Iron Age.

    Ivanova believes that the emergence of the Baden complex, for example, was one the results of these impetuses from the Near East. Recently specialists alluded to similar affinities of the early Baden culture and see the Bulgarian Yunatsite and Ezero cultures as early entry points into Europe from West Asia [source: Lolita Nikolova. Balkan-Anatolian Cultural Horizons from the Fourth Millennium BC and Their Relations to the Baden Cultural Complex].

    Irrespective of the precise nature of these migrations, Ivanova's "The Black Sea and the Early Civilizations of Europe, the Near East, and Asia" is a rare gem and the processes she describes might be key for understanding the peopling of southern Europe.
    Extremely helpful and interesting, Marko Z. I'm going to see if I can get hold of it. Thanks.

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    I'm Albanian. R1a1a ydna and H11a mtdna. What do these results mean?

    Population
    S-Indian -
    Baloch 4.61
    Caucasian 30.35
    NE-Euro 26.52
    SE-Asian 0.05
    Siberian 0.41
    NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.10
    American -
    Beringian 0.24
    Mediterranean 29.62
    SW-Asian 8.05
    San -
    E-African -
    Pygmy -
    W-African -

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    Ancient Armenians on Gedmatch:

    kit M926386 - sample I1631 Armenia Copper Age
    kit M340653 - sample I1635 Armenia Early Bronze Age
    kit M536324 - sample I1658 Armenia Early Bronze Age
    kit M182163 - sample I1656 Armenia Middle Bronze Age
    kit M575241 - sample RISE423 Armenia Middle Bronze Age
    kit M930063 - sample RISE423 Armenia Middle Bronze Age*
    kit M497255 - sample RISE397 Armenia Late Bronze Age
    kit M691697 - sample RISE407 Armenia Late Bronze Age

    *RISE423 has been uploaded twice by two different persons.

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    Dodecad K12b:

    Orange = changes associated with Copper Age; red = with Bronze-Iron Age:

    https://s10.postimg.org/dymkjnhwp/Metal_Transition.png



    ^^^ Armenia is interesting.

    Copper Age Areni-1 (I1631) has a high % of "NorthEurope", then it declines in Early Bronze Age Kura-Araxes samples (I1658 and I1635), and then it once again increases in Middle-Late Bronze Age samples (all of Armenian RISE + I1656).

    Copper Age Armenian sample (I1631) was from this place:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_cave_complex

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Here are some ancient DNA samples from Asia Minor on Gedmach:

    Kum4 (from Kumtepe) is Indo-European, and has a lot of Steppe admixture:

    Age in years Period/culture Gedmatch kit Sample ID
    ~8635 Neolithic Z145547 Tep002
    ~8350 Neolithic M411713 I1583
    ~8350 Neolithic M754279 I0746
    ~8350 Neolithic M936428 I0709
    ~8350 Neolithic M897077 I0707
    ~5826 Copper Age M091434 I1584
    ~5150 Early Bronze M300627 Kum4

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    I tested those ancient Anatolian samples with this calculator:

    GedrosiaDNA - Eurasia K14 Neolithic:

    https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/St...n_Anatolia.png



    Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe

    Around 3700 BC [~5700 years ago] new settlers came to Kumtepe. The people of this new culture, Kumtepe B, built relatively large houses with multiple rooms, sometimes a porch. They also practiced animal husbandry and agriculture. The main domestic animals were goats and sheep, bred not only for meat but for milk and wool as well. They knew lead and bronze along with copper. Shortly after 3000 BC Yassıtepe and Hisarlık (Troy) were colonized probably from Kumtepe.
    Edit:

    One Neolithic sample - I0746 - actually scored 2,5% Yamnaya-Afanasievo, but I added it to "other".

    All the remaining four Neolithic samples scored zero (-) of Yamnaya-Afanasievo, exactly as expected.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I tested those ancient Anatolian samples with this calculator:

    GedrosiaDNA - Eurasia K14 Neolithic:

    https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/St...n_Anatolia.png



    Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe



    Edit:

    One Neolithic sample - I0746 - actually scored 2,5% Yamnaya-Afanasievo, but I added it to "other".

    All the remaining four Neolithic samples scored zero (-) of Yamnaya-Afanasievo, exactly as expected.
    That's what I was getting from Harappa Armenian runs. Sharp increase of Steppe NE European admixture in Armenia and Anatolia since Bronze Age. Yamnaya expansion? Here we can see even earlier encroachment almost 4000 BC! Well, at least in Western Turkey. Kind of bizarre. Perhaps by way of sea?
    Kumtepe is also incredible. No SW Asian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Kumtepe is also incredible. No SW Asian?
    David W. Anthony wrote that Proto-Anatolian speakers came from the Steppe to the Balkans ca. 4200-4000 BC. Those who came to Kumtepe ca. 3700 BC were the same wave of IE migrants who had settled in the Balkans before. This explains why Kum4 had no any SW Asian admixture*, but only Steppe and Neolithic EEF - they mixed with farmers in the Balkans, then moved to Anatolia.

    Yamnaya admixture in Areni-1 is harder to explain, but they didn't have as much of it as Kumtepe B.

    ====================

    *SW Asian = more or less Levantine.

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