Neolithic migration was family-based, Bronze Age invasion was male-dominated

[Fire Haired14]

Tomenable, so are you saying Corded Ware culture was created by low status single males from the Steppe? It takes many men and women. I'm not an expert at all but IMO it takes an entire population with every age and gender to do what Corded Ware and others did. Lone men would be absorbed by native populations and learn their language, as Muslim refugees are.

 

[bicicleur 2]

This is very easy to explain, if you know how early Indo-European societies worked. Indo-Europeans commonly practiced polygyny, which means that one man could have many wifes. The most powerful and influential men had the largest number of wives.

For example, chieftains could have 10 wifes each (or at least several).

However, the proportion of males to females in every population is always close to 50:50. So if only 1 man marries 10 women, it means that 9 other men had to remain "singles". There were just not enough women in the population for them to marry.

And in my opinion, that was one of driving forces of Indo-European expansions.

Those low-status men, who could not find native Steppe wifes on the Steppe, had to:

1) Either kidnap wifes from somewhere else, and then bring them back to the Steppe;

OR:

2) Emigrate from the Steppe, invade another tribe, and capture their women as wifes.

In fact, genetic and archaeological data provides evidence, that both happened. The increase of CHG admixture among Steppe people, was due to kidnapping wifes from the Caucasus region, and then bringing them back to the Steppe. Later on, they stopped kidnapping & bringing wifes to the Steppe, and instead started emigrating from the Steppe in search of wifes to conquer. That was most likely due to improvements in technology (they acquired metals, horses, wheels and wagons - becoming more mobile).

Before acquiring those technological advantages, they were only able to organize raids for women (quickly surprise-attacking a settlement of farmers, kidnapping women and food, then quickly running away back to the Steppe).

But after gaining an advantage in military power, they could conquer sedentary populations.

same happened when Chinese rice farmers came to Indochina ca 4 ka
the 1st generation cemeteries had mixed skulls, native and Chinese
but today the main Y-haplogroup in Indochina is the Chinese farmer O, they didn't mix with HG males

but I'm not sure it was all rape
maybe women were attracted to these men with new technologies and higher status

 

[Olympus Mons]

Tomenable.
If one has to "explain" that much...then its a novel.

... And after that brad Pitt just got involved with that other actress and they broke up. Right? Lol

 

[berun]

According to David Reich ( http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32879-David-Reich-s-summary-of-the-population-history-of-Europe ) Neolithic folks could be simply replaced by Steppe people, like te Europeans replaced Native Americans in Northern America. Native Americans couldn't handel the viruses / plague brought by the Europeans and huge percentage of them died out. They found some tracks of black death / deadly pestilence in Native Europeans.

So you can compare native (neolithic) European population with native Americans (Indians) at the time of Columbus...

And which virus did say Reich killed men and spared women? (the Neolithic mtDNA was at 70% level in CW)

 

[berun]

In fact, genetic and archaeological data provides evidence, that both happened. The increase of CHG admixture among Steppe people, was due to kidnapping wifes from the Caucasus region, and then bringing them back to the Steppe. Later on, they stopped kidnapping & bringing wifes to the Steppe, and instead started emigrating from the Steppe in search of wifes to conquer. That was most likely due to improvements in technology (they acquired metals, horses, wheels and wagons - becoming more mobile).

The recent paper on Maykop mtDNA is not supporting this "massive kidnapping" theory.

 

[Tomenable]

Berun,

So maybe they kidnapped women from the Trypillian culture, or some other population?

====================

BTW, it seems that Goldberg, Rosenberg et al. underestimate Steppe female immigration.

This spreadsheet shows the frequencies of Steppe-related mtDNA in various populations:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GToouHMsUnoUpGSY91OIMA3bjc86bhNRSzknZ_BKLYE/edit#gid=0

Only U5a, U4, U2e, T1a, J2b1a, J1b1a1, I, N1a1b, H-16362, H2a1 and H2a2b were counted as Steppe-related there. What about U2d2, U5b2a1a1, K1b, T2a1, T2c1, H6a1, H5, H13, J2b1, W6, W3a1a, X2b, R1, C4a3 - weren't these mtDNA haplogroups also Steppe-related? On the other hand, it seems that only U5a1 was typically Steppe (U5a2 was not) and only I3 (not all of I), but all of N1a1 and J1b (not just N1a1b and J1b1a1).

Of course only haplos common in the Steppe but uncommon among European Farmers can be securely labeled as Steppe-related.

Fire Haired, what do you think about these additional haplogroups (which could also be Steppe-related) that I listed?

 

[Tomenable]

(the Neolithic mtDNA was at 70% level in CW)

"Neolithic" mtDNA was already common among Steppe people. Typical Mesolithic European mtDNA is U5, U4, U2, U8a, U8c (of those, U5b, U5a2, U8a and U8c were more common in western-central Europe, while U5a1, U4 and U2e were more common in European Russia).

Steppe people had a lot of Mesolithic mtDNA (mostly U5a1, U4, U2e, U2d2, U5b2a1a1).

But they also had a lot of Non-Mesolithic mtDNA (see the list from my previous post).

Some of their mtDNA was probably of Ancient North Eurasian and Siberian origin as well.

========================

Here CW and Yamna mtDNA comparison (check also Afanasievo, Catacomb, Poltavka):

https://s31.postimg.org/h12f4uxyh/CWC_YAM_mt_DNA.png

Large part of German Corded Ware mtDNA was already of Middle Neolithic farmer origin.

 

[berun]

"Ongoing male migration from the steppe over multiple generations is therefore required to explain observed patterns of X and autosomal ancestry"

And why the Yamnayans needed several migrations to Central Europe?

"Males from the steppe and central European females show substantial ongoing migration, with continuing admixture rates of almost ½. That is, almost half of the male parents in each generation of BA individuals are new migrants from the SP population."

After all the Yamnayans were gentlemen and were not forcing the 100% of the local women... what a kidding

"This result corresponds to approximately 14 male migrants for every female migrant from the steppe contributing to the ancestry of the BA population."

Tomenable you have the mean harem of a mean Yamnayan cacique: 13 women... but the worst is that after such migration the caciques were left alone in the steppes with their harems isn't?


but the best is that the cacique's sons were the responsible for the successive migratory waves? oh I think it's a good joke start...

 

[Tomenable]

And why the Yamnayans needed several migrations to Central Europe?

Anglo-Saxon migrations to Britain were also not just during one generation.

People were coming over across the North Sea during several generations.

Strontium isotope analyses - among other things - show that it was the case.

 

[Tomenable]

corresponds to approximately 14 male migrants for every female migrant

Or - more likely - it was something like this:

1 male migrant + 1 female migrant come from the Steppe.

Male migrant kills 13 local farmer males, and takes their women.

Male migrant has children with 1 Steppe and 13 Farmer women.

================

So it is not about number of migrants, but how fast they reproduced.

================

Quote:

We find evidence of ongoing, primarily male, migration from the steppe to central Europe over a period of multiple generations

more likely there were continuing waves of local women marrying Steppe men and moving into their husband's villages.

Indeed, signals that they detected could be "working in both directions".

 

[berun]

If the Yamnayans of the Caspian steppe needed to go as far as Trypolie to kidnapp women I understand now the real use of chariots...


The butchering that you calculate is not valid in the same paper as they say that in each wave a woman in two married a local, so it was not factible to have the harems you think.

 

[Tomenable]

And which virus did say Reich killed men and spared women? (the Neolithic mtDNA was at 70% level in CW)

In Latin America today, Native American mtDNA is also majority, but most of Y-DNA is of Iberian origin.

For example Paraguay is like ca. 90% Guarani mtDNA haplogroups + 90% Iberian Y-DNA haplogroups.

 

[berun]

The period of the Anglo-Saxon migration took two generations from 450 till 500. Very fast taking into account that there was a sea in the middle.

 

[Tomenable]

The period of the Anglo-Saxon migration took two generations from 450 till 500.

It took a longer time. Probably from 425 to 625, or ca. 8 generations.

If the Yamnayans of the Caspian steppe needed to go as far as Trypolie to kidnapp women I understand now the real use of chariots...

Farmer women were well-nourished and fat, so a chariot was useful.

Or you could put several thin women into one chariot at once.

When on horseback, you could only get one woman per one raid:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_kidnapping

 

[arvistro]

I have met occasionally in different texts (IE-derived or not) the motive of -
Some warrior band goes to distant place, a major battle happens, local men are killed, local women are taking wives and new mixed population happens.

How much of that is historical reality and how much fantasy is other story, but it is clear that kind of set up was somewhat familiar to those story tellers. In some cases it could have also happened back then.

 

[Angela]

There are two things that I don't get:

l. Where did all these men come from? Even if it was successive waves, as they insist, and not just one wave, the steppe couldn't support a huge population. In comparison to MN Central Europe it was sparsely populated so far as I know.

2. If they practiced this kind of polygamy why didn't it persist in the European cultures descended from them? Maybe it's just that I'm not aware of it. Was there polygamy in Corded Ware, in Bronze Age Britain etc.?

There's some piece still missing here.

Oh, gentlemen, let's not get carried away with ourselves. Has everyone forgotten there were no chariots until 2000 BC, and that was all the way over to the east? There were no chariots, no bronze swords etc., in Corded Ware. In the beginning they barely had copper. As for the chariots they were small and rather ramshackle affairs in the beginning and hardly suitable for forest travel. Let's rein in the perverse romanticism.

Goga, Southern Europeans have about half the 50% Yamnaya that is in the northern Europeans, so let's not exaggerate with all this talk of replacement, at least on an autosomal level. The yDna is another story.

 

[MarkoZ]

I think the sample size is rather small, which makes the results seem overly dramatic. However the general pattern looks rather solid. I have no idea why they would invoke chariot and horse warfare when there's so little evidence of this though. The best explanation at present still seems to be a discrepancy in the rates of reproduction considering that median life expectancy increased somewhat in the bronze age [Angel, Lawrence J. (1984) "Health as a crucial factor in the changes from hunting to developed farming in the eastern Mediterranean."]. Violent clashes probably weren't the rule. Indeed, an explosion of violence seems to have occurred in the Middle to Late Neolithic, preceding the processes that would take place in the Bronze Age.

It also looks as though much of the farmer-hunter admixture took place at the eastern fringes of Europe (~Ukraine?), whereas the advantage of the Corded people became somewhat diminished as they migrated deeper into the continent.

 

[Tomenable]

MarkoZ,

You mentioned only the Corded people, but Y-DNA of the Beaker people also came from the Steppe.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Or - more likely - it was something like this:

1 male migrant + 1 female migrant come from the Steppe.

Male migrant kills 13 local farmer males, and takes their women.

Male migrant has children with 1 Steppe and 13 Farmer women.

================

So it is not about number of migrants, but how fast they reproduced.

================

Quote:



Indeed, signals that they detected could be "working in both directions".

there were no signs of violence between CW or Bell Beaker and farmer people in Europe
there were signs of violence between CW and local HG in the forest zone west of the Urals

nevertheless farmer males didn't reproduce
they became unfertile when steppe males arrived

 

[bicicleur 2]

There are two things that I don't get:

l. Where did all these men come from? Even if it was successive waves, as they insist, and not just one wave, the steppe couldn't support a huge population. In comparison to MN Central Europe it was sparsely populated so far as I know.

2. If they practiced this kind of polygamy why didn't it persist in the European cultures descended from them? Maybe it's just that I'm not aware of it. Was there polygamy in Corded Ware, in Bronze Age Britain etc.?

There's some piece still missing here.

Oh, gentlemen, let's not get carried away with ourselves. Has everyone forgotten there were no chariots until 2000 BC, and that was all the way over to the east? There were no chariots, no bronze swords etc., in Corded Ware. In the beginning they barely had copper. As for the chariots they were small and rather ramshackle affairs in the beginning and hardly suitable for forest travel. Let's rein in the perverse romanticism.

Goga, Southern Europeans have about half the 50% Yamnaya that is in the northern Europeans, so let's not exaggerate with all this talk of replacement, at least on an autosomal level. The yDna is another story.

there were not so many men coming from the steppe

allmost all Central and western European R1b are R1b-L51 and very little steppe R1b is R1b-L51

so just a small steppe tribe of R1b-L51 came to Central Europe and expanded within Central and western Europe

the same can be said about R1a1a-M417, which was a European tribe, except one tribe, R1b-Z93 which went back to the steppe as the Sintashta and Srubnaya tribe

somehow these few steppe males reproduced themselves very fast in Central and western Europe while other males didn't

as I mentioned above, the same happened when Chinese farmers moved south into Indochina 4ka
the haplo O farming males reproduced, while HG haplo C1b and K2 didn't allthough HG females were involved in the reproduction
the HG males ended up deep in the forest as Aeta HG or Negritos or moved further south into Australia