Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 76 to 86 of 86

Thread: Neolithic migration was family-based, Bronze Age invasion was male-dominated

  1. #76
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-02-15
    Location
    Groningen
    Posts
    712
    Points
    12,121
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,121, Level: 33
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 529
    Overall activity: 47.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b/ E-V22

    Ethnic group
    North Sea Germanic
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    "Significant", I doubt it was very significant. Even if it was I think it's impossible for Steppe men to had been genetically significantly physically superior to Neo/Meso Men. I think this because the variation in physique among Europeans today is small. The variation among most of humanity is small.



    Corded Ware arrived in NorthEastern Europe before any R1b did. "hot farmer girls", this is fantasy talk. Farmer girls shouldn't have been any hotter than Steppe girls. You guys are trying to make history a Hollywood movie. I don't know about you but for other Northern Europeans I've seen post here there's a dose of racial-centrism. That's why I started this thread. They're ok with the idea Steppe people were superior because they have more Steppe than anyone. You guys are also half or more from the Meso/Neo Europeans who you apparently think were weaklings but also had super hot women who Steppe men stole.

    I think it's very possible Steppe groups or heavily admixed Steppe groups in Europe were aggressive raiding tribes like the Huns or Slavs were in early European history. However, I don't think it is possible that they simply man handled their way to dominate Europe and native European women. Biologically speaking that sounds impossible. The difference between them and Native European men would have been tiny. That explanation is too simple.
    Tiny differences can give after dozens of generations significant outcomes Fire Haired. I'am more and more convinced that Maciamo has got the right direction when he stated that R1b/S21 was popularized by the Unetice culture, the first Bronze Age warriors entering Northwestern Europe. According to their burials they not only where probably beter military better equipped than the descendants of the TRB/Beaker cultures of that time. But most of all they introduced an aristocratic element, which was on to that unknown in these area's. Ok they weren't all Khan the second...but I think those 'aristocratic' chieftains where not unfamiliar with claiming of women.....(a kind of presidential privilege avant la lettre ;)

  2. #77
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-10-16
    Posts
    31
    Points
    1,294
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,294, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 56
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a1b1b

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    "Significant", I doubt it was very significant. Even if it was I think it's impossible for Steppe men to had been genetically significantly physically superior to Neo/Meso Men. I think this because the variation in physique among Europeans today is small. The variation among most of humanity is small.



    Corded Ware arrived in NorthEastern Europe before any R1b did. "hot farmer girls", this is fantasy talk. Farmer girls shouldn't have been any hotter than Steppe girls. You guys are trying to make history a Hollywood movie. I don't know about you but for other Northern Europeans I've seen post here there's a dose of racial-centrism. That's why I started this thread. They're ok with the idea Steppe people were superior because they have more Steppe than anyone. You guys are also half or more from the Meso/Neo Europeans who you apparently think were weaklings but also had super hot women who Steppe men stole.

    I think it's very possible Steppe groups or heavily admixed Steppe groups in Europe were aggressive raiding tribes like the Huns or Slavs were in early European history. However, I don't think it is possible that they simply man handled their way to dominate Europe and native European women. Biologically speaking that sounds impossible. The difference between them and Native European men would have been tiny. That explanation is too simple.
    I don't think farmer girls were hotter. What I meant was that when invading IEs initially conquered the farmers and wiped out a large portion of their population, the more attractive nubile farmer girls were the most likely to survive and reproduce. There's no assumption of superiority except military superiority. The conquered Native Americans were also known for their bravery, resistance to pain, and skills at oratory. They were still conquered. Conquest doesn't really carry assumptions about superiority.

    There’s probably a lot of material for a PIE movie, but the unimpressive technology of the time and the lack of interest in similar period movies make it better suited for tv. Perhaps the History Channel could pick it up after Vikings is over or maybe it could go to HBO or Netflix. Seriously, the source of nearly half the world’s languages and culture should be a movie. It feels like the breakthroughs in ancient DNA are being ignored and we should already have had an episode of NOVA and a few documentaries. Neanderthals and Denisovans are getting all the attention even though we don’t have any cultural connection to them.

  3. #78
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,195
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    I don't think farmer girls were hotter. What I meant was that when invading IEs initially conquered the farmers and wiped out a large portion of their population, the more attractive nubile farmer girls were the most likely to survive and reproduce. There's no assumption of superiority except military superiority.
    This is realistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    It feels like the breakthroughs in ancient DNA are being ignored and we should already have had an episode of NOVA and a few documentaries. Neanderthals and Denisovans are getting all the attention even though we don’t have any cultural connection to them.
    It is strange how there's been hardly any attention given to it.

  4. #79
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,524
    Points
    358,395
    Level
    100
    Points: 358,395, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    What is being ignored, AGAIN, despite all the papers and all the threads and the reams of posts is that there isn't a one size fits all "invasion".

    What went on in parts of the northern border regions (and perhaps even Britain) that were barely populated was different from what went on in a Central Europe that had experienced population crashes and was perhaps weakened by malnutrition and the diseases (the plague) perhaps carried by the new arrivals, which was different again from what happened, perhaps, in southern Europe, or in Anatolia and Iran, etc. in the Near East.

    There are also big differences by time period. I know some people in this hobby, particularly young men, love a sort of Conan the Barbarian or Viking kind of narrative, but it doesn't fit a lot of what went on. Corded Ware only got a little bronze at the very end. They barely had copper weapons. They did not have a big military superiority over the MN people they encountered. That's very different from the Mycenaeans, for example.

    You can't make one story fit all.

    What I do think is true as a rather global matter is that you often have a civilized "core" built up over generations and hundreds of years which starts to develop problems, perhaps because of climate change, or environmental damage, or class differences which result in mass conflict, and populations of the periphery, perhaps nomadic herders in some areas, swoop in and take over, sometimes with pretty significant genetic changes altogether, sometimes as an elite, sometimes with broad autosomal replacement, sometimes with autosomal admixture but a yDna sweep. You see it in China, in Africa, in the Near East. It has nothing to do with "superiority" whatever the racist "philosophers" and anthropologists of the late 19th century might have thought.

    If you have never read or have forgotten about all of this, you can find detailed discussions about these matters if you use the search engine.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  5. #80
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-10-16
    Posts
    31
    Points
    1,294
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,294, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 56
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a1b1b

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What is being ignored, AGAIN, despite all the papers and all the threads and the reams of posts is that there isn't a one size fits all "invasion".

    What went on in parts of the northern border regions (and perhaps even Britain) that were barely populated was different from what went on in a Central Europe that had experienced population crashes and was perhaps weakened by malnutrition and the diseases (the plague) perhaps carried by the new arrivals, which was different again from what happened, perhaps, in southern Europe, or in Anatolia and Iran, etc. in the Near East.

    There are also big differences by time period. I know some people in this hobby, particularly young men, love a sort of Conan the Barbarian or Viking kind of narrative, but it doesn't fit a lot of what went on. Corded Ware only got a little bronze at the very end. They barely had copper weapons. They did not have a big military superiority over the MN people they encountered. That's very different from the Mycenaeans, for example.

    You can't make one story fit all.

    What I do think is true as a rather global matter is that you often have a civilized "core" built up over generations and hundreds of years which starts to develop problems, perhaps because of climate change, or environmental damage, or class differences which result in mass conflict, and populations of the periphery, perhaps nomadic herders in some areas, swoop in and take over, sometimes with pretty significant genetic changes altogether, sometimes as an elite, sometimes with broad autosomal replacement, sometimes with autosomal admixture but a yDna sweep. You see it in China, in Africa, in the Near East. It has nothing to do with "superiority" whatever the racist "philosophers" and anthropologists of the late 19th century might have thought.

    If you have never read or have forgotten about all of this, you can find detailed discussions about these matters if you use the search engine.
    Historically, successful barbarians invaders have at the very least been able to put a much larger percentage of their populations in the field and in the case of China, India, and the Middle East had a natural supply of horses which sedentary empires had to import from them.


    Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a successful barbarian migration that wasn’t backed up with serious military prowess. Maybe the expansion of Semites into Mesopotamia is a counterexample.


    Someone should point out that Conan and other Cimmerians often get captured or enslaved. He’s not always on top, except at the end of the story. The Vikings were the tail end of the migrations that occurred with the collapse of the Roman empire. Your internal weakness narrative probably a large part of the story (look what happened to lead production), but the growing military power of the Germani and the Sassanids likely became to much for the empire.


    Does anyone dispute that IEs had a more martial culture than MN Europe?


    My guess is that the IE expansion into Europe was triggered by the invention of the wheel rather than horses or bronze. It may have gone something like this:

    • The wheel is invented. Mobility increases drastically and individual family farms become more viable. This weakens traditional socio-political structures among farmers and strengthens new structures among IEs. It also become possible for herders to take everything they own and move to Siberia.
    • The costs of raiding long distances and taking loot decline drastically. This increases the level of warfare across Europe. Moreover, disease spreads much more quickly. This leads to devastating plagues across Europe.
    • The population declines. Remaining communities of hunter-gatherers expand at the expense of farmers because they are less affected by raiding.
    • A massive migration from the steppe begins as young steppe men seek grazing land, women, power, and everlasting renown in the West. Their martial culture and the inherent mobility of their economy give them a decisive advantage over the farmers. They destroy villages and towns, slaughter their people, destroy their agriculture, and run off with their women.
    • Surviving farmers flee into the mountains. Hunter-gatherer groups are gradually assimilated into the new IE order.



    I suspect that core-periphery interactions are important for developing the periphery. War and trade with the Romans built up the Germans, with the Chinese it built up the various Northern barbarians, and and the Cucuteni and Maykop presumably did the same for the Yamnaya.

  6. #81
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-02-15
    Location
    Groningen
    Posts
    712
    Points
    12,121
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,121, Level: 33
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 529
    Overall activity: 47.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b/ E-V22

    Ethnic group
    North Sea Germanic
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What is being ignored, AGAIN, despite all the papers and all the threads and the reams of posts is that there isn't a one size fits all "invasion".

    What went on in parts of the northern border regions (and perhaps even Britain) that were barely populated was different from what went on in a Central Europe that had experienced population crashes and was perhaps weakened by malnutrition and the diseases (the plague) perhaps carried by the new arrivals, which was different again from what happened, perhaps, in southern Europe, or in Anatolia and Iran, etc. in the Near East.

    There are also big differences by time period. I know some people in this hobby, particularly young men, love a sort of Conan the Barbarian or Viking kind of narrative, but it doesn't fit a lot of what went on. Corded Ware only got a little bronze at the very end. They barely had copper weapons. They did not have a big military superiority over the MN people they encountered. That's very different from the Mycenaeans, for example.

    You can't make one story fit all.

    What I do think is true as a rather global matter is that you often have a civilized "core" built up over generations and hundreds of years which starts to develop problems, perhaps because of climate change, or environmental damage, or class differences which result in mass conflict, and populations of the periphery, perhaps nomadic herders in some areas, swoop in and take over, sometimes with pretty significant genetic changes altogether, sometimes as an elite, sometimes with broad autosomal replacement, sometimes with autosomal admixture but a yDna sweep. You see it in China, in Africa, in the Near East. It has nothing to do with "superiority" whatever the racist "philosophers" and anthropologists of the late 19th century might have thought.

    If you have never read or have forgotten about all of this, you can find detailed discussions about these matters if you use the search engine.
    I think that in the case upcoming R1b in Northwestern Europe due to the Unetice culture I have a clear example where archeology and DNA research come together.

    Maciamo:
    "The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age."

    The Unetice culture in Northwestern Germany and Northern Netherlands is called the Sögel Kreis.

    Prof Harry Fokkens (1998):
    ''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example.It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."

    Clear example!

  7. #82
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,524
    Points
    358,395
    Level
    100
    Points: 358,395, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    My point, which I don’t see that you have addressed, is that the arrival of the Indo-European speakers took a different form depending on the place and the time period of the intrusion. What has happened, especially on internet forums, is that cultural norms and patterns from much later periods of pre-history and involving different groups have been transplanted into time periods when those weapons, norms, patterns, etc. didn't exist.

    As I tried to explain, Corded Ware does not, imo, have anything to do with the whole concept of mounted, “cowboys of the steppe”, wielding bronze swords, whose chieftans had dozens of local women in their harems.

    Yes, cultures like Corded Ware made use of the wheel, not that they invented it, it having been invented either in MN Europe or the Near East or both. (Please use the search engine to find the papers.) They made use of it in carts, carts which in the early periods were most often pulled by oxen. (Again, use the search engine for the papers.) Yes, that gave them more mobility. Yes, given their heavier reliance on herding, they probably were better positioned, given the climate changes, to provide food for their families. If it's true that they brought plague with them, a plague to which they might have had some immunity, that would have been a huge advantage. In those cases, yes, the native women who survived might have been absorbed.

    This has nothing to do with the horse riding, raiding, fighting "cowboys" of the steppe who so fire the imagination of some men. That is part of much later cultural developments and much more emblematic of the Iranian tribes than of what was going on in Europe in the early days of the incursions.


    As far as much of northern, northwestern, and northeastern Europe, it's not much of a military invasion when there's almost nobody around to be invaded and you're going into almost uninhabited territory, which may be the case in the British Isles and parts of Northern and Northwestern Europe. Whatever admixture with people of MN Europe took place occurred in Central Europe in an earlier time period.

    In southern Europe, the Indo-European speakers were apparently not very steppe like by the time they reached the area, because although in the place where I was born perhaps 50% of the men are R1b, and it’s well over 60% where my father was born, with some yDna I thrown in on top of that, the "Yamnaya" percentage is about 25%, and in addition includes, no doubt, what was contributed by the Celtic migrations of the first millennium BC and the Lombards after the fall of the Empire. So, there doesn't seem to have been such a "massive" invasion at the time the Indo-Europeans entered the peninsula. I also doubt the initial incursions could have been "massive" anywhere given that the steppe lands can't carry "massive" populations. The exponential growth in population must have taken place after they had spent some time further west

    I'm not going to bother finding all the studies in my files again because no matter how often I post them they're just ignored by people who prefer the one size fits all narrative. If you're interested you can find them.

    Just as an aside, and since you raised the issue, you might also want to go back and look at the narratives written at the time about the Germani and other barbarians who were streaming into the Empire. Many if not most of them were desperate, poor, starving, farmers fleeing in terror from the new steppe populations, who were indeed horse mounted warriors. In many instances it was more like the current mass immigration of refugees from the Middle East into Europe than a highly organized military invasion. That was particularly true for the Lombards. You might want to look up a recent paper on ancient Lombard remains. They were malnourished and sick and altogether in terrible condition when they arrived in Italy.

    The "Germani" and other invaders who constituted an actual military force, as in the case with some of the Visigoths, were most often Roman trained, equipped and originally led troops who had accepted Roman pay for their services and then turned around to rend to pieces the weakened host.

    With the following I agree:

    "I suspect that core-periphery interactions are important for developing the periphery. War and trade with the Romans built up the Germans, with the Chinese it built up the various Northern barbarians, and and the Cucuteni and Maykop presumably did the same for the Yamnaya."

  8. #83
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-02-15
    Location
    Groningen
    Posts
    712
    Points
    12,121
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,121, Level: 33
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 529
    Overall activity: 47.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b/ E-V22

    Ethnic group
    North Sea Germanic
    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My point, which I don’t see that you have addressed, is that the arrival of the Indo-European speakers took a different form depending on the place and the time period of the intrusion. What has happened, especially on internet forums, is that cultural norms and patterns from much later periods of pre-history and involving different groups have been transplanted into time periods when those weapons, norms, patterns, etc. didn't exist.

    As I tried to explain, Corded Ware does not, imo, have anything to do with the whole concept of mounted, “cowboys of the steppe”, wielding bronze swords, whose chieftans had dozens of local women in their harems.

    Yes, cultures like Corded Ware made use of the wheel, not that they invented it, it having been invented either in MN Europe or the Near East or both. (Please use the search engine to find the papers.) They made use of it in carts, carts which in the early periods were most often pulled by oxen. (Again, use the search engine for the papers.) Yes, that gave them more mobility. Yes, given their heavier reliance on herding, they probably were better positioned, given the climate changes, to provide food for their families. If it's true that they brought plague with them, a plague to which they might have had some immunity, that would have been a huge advantage. In those cases, yes, the native women who survived might have been absorbed.

    This has nothing to do with the horse riding, raiding, fighting "cowboys" of the steppe who so fire the imagination of some men. That is part of much later cultural developments and much more emblematic of the Iranian tribes than of what was going on in Europe in the early days of the incursions.


    As far as much of northern, northwestern, and northeastern Europe, it's not much of a military invasion when there's almost nobody around to be invaded and you're going into almost uninhabited territory, which may be the case in the British Isles and parts of Northern and Northwestern Europe. Whatever admixture with people of MN Europe took place occurred in Central Europe in an earlier time period.

    In southern Europe, the Indo-European speakers were apparently not very steppe like by the time they reached the area, because although in the place where I was born perhaps 50% of the men are R1b, and it’s well over 60% where my father was born, with some yDna I thrown in on top of that, the "Yamnaya" percentage is about 25%, and in addition includes, no doubt, what was contributed by the Celtic migrations of the first millennium BC and the Lombards after the fall of the Empire. So, there doesn't seem to have been such a "massive" invasion at the time the Indo-Europeans entered the peninsula. I also doubt the initial incursions could have been "massive" anywhere given that the steppe lands can't carry "massive" populations. The exponential growth in population must have taken place after they had spent some time further west

    I'm not going to bother finding all the studies in my files again because no matter how often I post them they're just ignored by people who prefer the one size fits all narrative. If you're interested you can find them.

    Just as an aside, and since you raised the issue, you might also want to go back and look at the narratives written at the time about the Germani and other barbarians who were streaming into the Empire. Many if not most of them were desperate, poor, starving, farmers fleeing in terror from the new steppe populations, who were indeed horse mounted warriors. In many instances it was more like the current mass immigration of refugees from the Middle East into Europe than a highly organized military invasion. That was particularly true for the Lombards. You might want to look up a recent paper on ancient Lombard remains. They were malnourished and sick and altogether in terrible condition when they arrived in Italy.

    The "Germani" and other invaders who constituted an actual military force, as in the case with some of the Visigoths, were most often Roman trained, equipped and originally led troops who had accepted Roman pay for their services and then turned around to rend to pieces the weakened host.

    With the following I agree:

    "I suspect that core-periphery interactions are important for developing the periphery. War and trade with the Romans built up the Germans, with the Chinese it built up the various Northern barbarians, and and the Cucuteni and Maykop presumably did the same for the Yamnaya."

    Angela, I agree with you that much of this matter is seen through a kind of frame. So the wild Steppe Warriors raiding to Northern Europe etc.
    But even you see things with a kind of "Latin frame" as old as the way to Rome ;)
    In the North "almost nobody around to be invaded" that's a classic Latin frame.

    And I think I'am in a sort of way biased too. But what I try to do is in the reconstruction of the past by comparing archeological findings with DNA research.

    The last few days I've read a lot of the ethnogenesis of the German. Simply because the family finder the results of Gedmatch some analysis of Tomenable "stickered" me as classical Northwest European as German.

    The result of this research. Germanic is a invention of the Romans, of Julius Caesar c.s. Nothing more nothing less. Some studies like that of Lillian Keller (and early on in het nineteenth century) tried to to make a reconstruction of a "volk". Clearly nineteenth and twentieth century nationalism. I guess this was besides reality, there was never one Germanic story, like that of the Roman and Latin one. The story of Germans is much more divers.

    But still, how about my DNA which has striking simmilarities with that of the Danes!? And the Germanic languages, don't they have some same roots!?

    So a kind of puzzle. On the one hand we see Germanic diversity, mingling on the other hand some things DNA, language, building of farmhouses and so, show some similarities!

    One of these similarities in Northwestern or Germanic Europe could be the influence of the Unetice culture. My picture is not that of hordes but DNA and archeological evidence show more than acculturalization it shows clearly a immigration and a take over!


    Last edited by Northener; 04-12-16 at 13:25.

  9. #84
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-10-16
    Posts
    31
    Points
    1,294
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,294, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 56
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a1b1b

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My point, which I don’t see that you have addressed, is that the arrival of the Indo-European speakers took a different form depending on the place and the time period of the intrusion. What has happened, especially on internet forums, is that cultural norms and patterns from much later periods of pre-history and involving different groups have been transplanted into time periods when those weapons, norms, patterns, etc. didn't exist.

    As I tried to explain, Corded Ware does not, imo, have anything to do with the whole concept of mounted, “cowboys of the steppe”, wielding bronze swords, whose chieftans had dozens of local women in their harems.
    How many women could a chieftain keep in his harem?

    Yes, cultures like Corded Ware made use of the wheel, not that they invented it, it having been invented either in MN Europe or the Near East or both. (Please use the search engine to find the papers.) They made use of it in carts, carts which in the early periods were most often pulled by oxen. (Again, use the search engine for the papers.) Yes, that gave them more mobility. Yes, given their heavier reliance on herding, they probably were better positioned, given the climate changes, to provide food for their families. If it's true that they brought plague with them, a plague to which they might have had some immunity, that would have been a huge advantage. In those cases, yes, the native women who survived might have been absorbed.
    If there was a plague, the IEs may have escaped it by being healthier. As I recall, Corded Ware people were healthier than their predecessors. The IEs had won and expanded their territory for food production and the farmers had been defeated and had lost theirs.

    This has nothing to do with the horse riding, raiding, fighting "cowboys" of the steppe who so fire the imagination of some men. That is part of much later cultural developments and much more emblematic of the Iranian tribes than of what was going on in Europe in the early days of the incursions.
    I went back and checked Anthony. The "horse riding, raiding, fighting "cowboys" of the steppe” is a near-perfect description of what he concludes Indo-Europeans were like from 4300 B.C. onward.


    For instance, he writes (pg 239)
    Cattle raiding was encouraged by Indo-European beliefs and rituals. The myth of Trito, the warrior, rationalized cattle theft as the recovery of cattle that the gods had intended for the people who sacrificed properly. Proto-Indo-European initiation rituals included a requirement that boys initiated into manhood had to go out and become like a band of dogs or wolves—to raid their enemies.28 Proto-Indo-European also had a word for bride-price, *uedmo-.29 Cattle, sheep, and probably horses would have been used to pay bride-prices, since they generally are valued higher than other currencies for bride-price payments in pastoral societies without formal money.30 Already in the preceding centuries domesticated ani- mals had become the proper gifts for gods at funerals (e.g., at Khvalynsk). A relatively small elite already competed across very large regions, adopting the same symbols of status—maces with polished stone heads, boar's tusk plaques, copper rings and pendants, shell disc beads, and bird-bone tubes. When bride-prices escalated as one aspect of this competition, the result would be increased cattle raiding by unmarried men. Combined with the justification provided by the Trito myth and the institution of male-initiation-group raiding, rising bride-prices calculated in animals would have made cross-border raiding almost inevitable. If they were on foot, Eneolithic steppe cattle raiders might have attacked one another or attacked neighboring Tripolye settlements. But, if they were mounted, they could pick a distant target that did not threaten valued gift partnerships. Raiding parties of a dozen riders could move fifty to seventyfive head of cattle or horses fairly quickly over hundreds of kilometers. 31 Thieving raids would have led to deaths, and then to more serious killing and revenge raids. A cycle of warfare evolving from thieving to revenge raids probably contributed to the collapse of the tell towns of the Danube valley. What kinds of societies lived on the steppe side of the frontier? Is there good archaeological evidence that they were indeed deeply engaged with Old Europe and the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture in quite different ways?
    To my knowledge, the distinctly Indo-Iranian innovations were violent war between chiefdoms (as opposed to just raiding) and the chariot. Is there any reason to rule out an Indo-European invention of the wheel? My understanding of the consensus is that it could have been invented anywhere between Germany and Iran. Was the steppe lacking prerequisite technologies to invent it?



    As far as much of northern, northwestern, and northeastern Europe, it's not much of a military invasion when there's almost nobody around to be invaded and you're going into almost uninhabited territory, which may be the case in the British Isles and parts of Northern and Northwestern Europe. Whatever admixture with people of MN Europe took place occurred in Central Europe in an earlier time period.

    In southern Europe, the Indo-European speakers were apparently not very steppe like by the time they reached the area, because although in the place where I was born perhaps 50% of the men are R1b, and it’s well over 60% where my father was born, with some yDna I thrown in on top of that, the "Yamnaya" percentage is about 25%, and in addition includes, no doubt, what was contributed by the Celtic migrations of the first millennium BC and the Lombards after the fall of the Empire. So, there doesn't seem to have been such a "massive" invasion at the time the Indo-Europeans entered the peninsula. I also doubt the initial incursions could have been "massive" anywhere given that the steppe lands can't carry "massive" populations. The exponential growth in population must have taken place after they had spent some time further west
    I never thought of it, but if someone had asked me before Haak et al. what the genetic impact of the Indo-Europeans was on Modern Europe I probably would have guessed 10-20% at the most. The sheer scale of the turnover is what got me interested in ancient DNA. Even people like Anthony, expected that IEs would have constituted a small percentage of the population. The IEs reshaped Europe's gene pool on a scale equal to or approaching that of the Conquistadors on Latin America. And since the invasion was serial, these figures underestimate the total turnover in any particular location. The genetic turnover in Italy may well have been over 50% if the newcomers were like the Bell Beaker sample in Haak. In the North, it appears to have been like Argentina or even North America.

  10. #85
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    How many women could a chieftain keep in his harem?
    True story: My Aryan (Ezdi Kurdish) great, great, great, grandfather (from whom I got my Y-DNA) was the only doctor / medicine man (known as 'hakim' in the Middle East) in a region as big as Luxemburg. He had everything. So sometimes when he healed wealthy (Ezdi Kurdish) merchants they gave to him their daughters as a sign of respect & gratitude. At the end he had 7 wifes (all Ezdi Kurds, since Ezdi Kurds marry only Ezdi Kurds and don't mix with outsiders. Children from mixed marriages are not Ezdi anymore). Only from 1 wife he got a son. And I'm a descedant of his only son. To my current knowledge he was the only ancestor who had more than 1 wife though...
    Last edited by Goga; 05-12-16 at 07:22.

  11. #86
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,524
    Points
    358,395
    Level
    100
    Points: 358,395, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    The findings of this paper have been refuted by Reich, Lazardis et al.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...715#post503715

    See also:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...715#post503715

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •