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Thread: Abortion ban in Poland?

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Abortion ban in Poland?



    See:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/hea...ind-another-w/

    I hope they've got it wrong. I would think almost everyone would agree that a woman shouldn't be forced to bring a child with terrible fetal abnormalities to term.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    I think the Lower House voted against it yesterday. More of these horror stories and attacks on civil liberties to come in the future though. Catholic church is really chocking this country.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Even children born of rape are a problem for me. I don't know if I could abort such a child, but I wouldn't force another woman to bear it against her will. That's another reason why any woman who is raped should immediately go to an emergency room; not only can they do a rape kit for future identification, but it's just standard procedure to do a d-and-c. No need for agonizing decisions.

    Late term abortion is an entirely different issue.

    I'm surprised the Church still has so much say, though. I thought church attendance, etc., had gone way down.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I have to say, I do not get the obsession of Christian fundamentalists (and it is a form of Christian fundamentalism, let there be no doubt about it) with abortion, especially because there is zero basis in scripture. The bigotry involved here becomes also very apparent that the same people who are against abortion at the same time care preciously little about the life that is already born. If you're forbidding abortion in the case of rape, what you are effectively doing is blaming and punishing the victim.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    It wasn't proposed by the Church to begin with.

    It was created by Catholic Family & Human Rights Institute "Ordo Iuris", a foundation established by conservative lawyers.

    Yesterday the spokesman of the Episcopate of Poland said that bishops oppose this initiative, because the Church is against punishing women for abortion. On Monday there were conflicting demonstrations against and for this project throughout the country.

    The Lower House has already rejected this bill in its entirety (358 votes against, and IIRC only 32 votes in support).

    So, as usually, the thing has been overblown in Western media.

    Meanwhile thousands of women are getting stoned to death in the Middle East on a daily basis and the media tells us that we cannot intervene or comment, because it is their own unique cultural tradition, and there are no inferior cultures, just different ones.

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    And Ireland has stricter laws than Poland on that, I think.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It wasn't proposed by the Church to begin with.

    It was created by Catholic Family & Human Rights Institute "Ordo Iuris", a foundation established by conservative lawyers.

    Yesterday the spokesman of the Episcopate of Poland said that bishops oppose this initiative, because the Church is against punishing women for abortion. On Monday there were conflicting demonstrations against and for this project throughout the country.

    The Lower House has already rejected this bill in its entirety (358 votes against, and IIRC only 32 votes in support).

    So, as usually, the thing has been overblown in Western media.
    I would like to point out that its not exactly overblown. If we were talking about Europe, I might agree with you, but you have to consider the bizarre proportions that the so-called "pro-life versus pro-choice" debate in the United States is taking. Against the backdrop of that, media interest into this happening in Poland is kind predictable, now isn't it?

    Meanwhile thousands of women are getting stoned to death in the Middle East on a daily basis and the media tells us that we cannot intervene or comment, because it is their own unique cultural tradition, and there are no inferior cultures, just different ones.
    Really, "thousands of women per day"?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Really, "thousands of women per day"?
    Unfortunately, he was never guilty of being objective. "The blacks are coming, Muslims are coming, socialists are coming, make Christian children, kill the old, close the borders, protect the purity and the whiteness, the world is collapsing!!!" Pure madness.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Meanwhile thousands of women are getting stoned to death in the Middle East on a daily basis and the media tells us that we cannot intervene or comment, because it is their own unique cultural tradition, and there are no inferior cultures, just different ones.
    1.) "Thousands of women are getting stoned in the Middle East on a daily basis?" Where are your sources for this assertion? I'll sit here patiently and wait for you to come back with nothing [factual].

    2.) Though there is no evidence that "thousands of women" in the Middle East are stoned on a "daily basis," stonings do occur and even one person being stoned every so often is barbaric and a step too far. But your other unsubstantiated assertion that the "media" tells us that we can not "intervene or comment," and especially regarding the latter, is utterly preposterous and untrue. Please cite just ONE, ONE Western media source that argues for cultural relativism concerning stonings. Again, I'll sit here and patiently await your return with nothing [factual].

    3.) Do you people do anything other than use strawman arguments, false equivalencies and/or flat out lies in order to substantiate your flimsy arguments?

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    LeBrok,

    The blacks are coming, Muslims are coming
    They are free to come as long as there is proper screening of all would-be immigrants before they enter.

    Jason Richwine in his dissertation had some good ideas related to how states could handle immigration.

    socialists are coming
    Socialists came twice. National socialists invaded in 1939, then international ones liberated in 1945.

    "Liberation" lasted until 1990, huh.

    ============================

    As for stonings:

    You disagree that it's thousands per day, but do you have reliable data on the scale of this problem?

    How many people are getting stoned to death each day in war-torn Syria and Iraq, in the Islamic State?

    I don't think that ISIS administration is collecting such statistics. At least they aren't publishing this data.

    OK maybe it isn't thousands on each day, but there were some days when such mass executions occured.

    Wanderlust,

    Please cite just ONE, ONE Western media source that argues for cultural relativism concerning stonings.
    The Young Turks ??? I don't remember them explicitly condemning Muslim stonings in their show.

    And after the New Year's Eve Rapes in Germany they also made numerous excuses for what happened.

    You might also watch this Gavin McInnes vs. Feminist discussion, where she makes excuses about barbarism in Middle Eastern societies, refusing to explicitly criticize their treatment of women, because they are a different culture and have their own standards:


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    LeBrok,

    Poland doesn't need additional Muslim or African immigrants, as it has already welcomed over 1 million Ukrainian refugees and economic migrants since 2014. I think this data is true because recently I very often hear people speaking Ukrainian or Russian in my city, so there must be a lot of them here. They aren't causing any problems. Despite coming from a war-torn country, they want to work, not to collect welfare. Here some opinions of Ukrainian immigrants about life in Poland: http://wyborcza.pl/duzyformat/1,1272...-urzednik.html. IIRC even Jean-Claude Juncker recently admitted that Poland is now hosting almost as many refugees as Germany - the only difference being that we have the ones from Ukraine, not the ones from Syria or Iraq.

    Refugees should seek asylum in the nearest safe country - so for example refugees from Syria should seek asylum in Turkey.

    Nothing justifies their exodus from Turkey all the way to North-Western Europe.

    Ukrainians instead of going all the way to Sweden are doing exactly what they should, staying in the nearest safe country.

    This indicates that they are coming to find safety and some work, not free money.

    There will be even more of Ukrainian migrants, because Ukraine is now officially the poorest country in Europe (in 2014 they were richer than at least Moldova, Kosovo and a few more, but since the outbreak of war, their GDP is declining and they have reached the bottom).

    Hard to believe that in 1990 Poland and Ukraine had similar level of per capita GDP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Unfortunately, he was never guilty of being objective. "The blacks are coming, Muslims are coming, socialists are coming, make Christian children, kill the old, close the borders, protect the purity and the whiteness, the world is collapsing!!!" Pure madness.
    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...ity_statistics
    The highest annual total of live births for the EU-28 was recorded in 1964, with 7.7 million live births. From the 1960s up to the beginning of the 21st century, the number of live births in the EU-28 declined from 7.5 million to a low of 5.0 million in 2002 (see Figure 1). This was followed by a modest rebound in the number of live births, with a high of 5.5 million children born in the EU-28 in 2008, in turn followed by further annual reductions.

    In 2014, the total fertility rate in the EU-28 was 1.58 live births per woman. The EU-28's fertility rate increased from a low of 1.46 in 2001 to a high of 1.62 in 2010, subsequently followed by a slight decrease to 1.58 in 2014.

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    Sustained below-replacement fertility has become commonplace, and Europe has been
    a leader in the trend towards low and very low fertility. Europe also witnessed in the last 15 years the
    emergence of unprecedented low fertility levels with a total fertility rate (TFR) at or below 1.3 children per
    woman. Kohler et al. (2002) have labeled these patterns as lowest-low fertility to emphasize the dramatic
    implications of these unprecedentedly low levels of fertility: for instance, if they persist over a long time in
    a contemporary low-mortality context, TFR levels at or below 1.3 imply a reduction of the annual number
    of births by 50% and a halving of the population size in less than 45 years.

    http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~hpkohler/p...rope-final.pdf


    This neoclassical economic theory predicts
    a countercyclical association between economic
    growth and fertility: this means that fertility tends
    to drop in times of economic progress. This has
    been empirically confirmed by the observation
    that traditionally, most countries have been characterised
    by a negative association between economic
    development and fertility.
    http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand...AND_MG1080.pdf


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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    You disagree that it's thousands per day, but do you have reliable data on the scale of this problem?

    How many people are getting stoned to death each day in war-torn Syria and Iraq, in the Islamic State?
    lol Are you daft? It's astounding that I criticize you of consistently relying on logical fallacies in order to bolster your shoddy arguments and YET AGAIN, without any sense of irony or self awareness, you commit yet ANOTHER logical fallacy by way of argumentum ad ignorantiam. When you put forth an assertion, the burden of proof lies with YOU to defend your claim and not with the person criticizing it. And you're in Law School, right? lol I don't think you're clever enough to successfully pull it off but keep at it kid!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The Young Turks ??? I don't remember them explicitly condemning Muslim stonings in their show.

    And after the New Year's Eve Rapes in Germany they also made numerous excuses for what happened.
    I specifically asked you to cite ONE Western media source that argued in favor of cultural relativism concerning stonings. And as expected, you failed. Claiming that journalists at the Young Turks don't "explicitly" condemn Muslim stonings is not the same thing as proving where they have argued in favor of cultural relativism concerning stonings.

    Furthermore, I'm a subscribed member of TYT for some years now, I've seen the bulk of their content, and without a doubt, they have been extremely critical of Islam, along with other religions (most of their journalists are Atheists), and especially its more heinous teachings and practices.

    And concerning the sexual assaults on New Year's in Cologne, I'm going to prove that you're either a blatant liar or have English language difficulties because it could not be more clear how they regarded what took place. There was no equivocating on the wrongness of what happened; though they acknowledged that what may be socially normalized behavior in certain cultures is not so in others, they also strongly stated that sexual assault (groping, touching, etc...) is unacceptable regardless of where you're from or what you believe--that such behavior is even unacceptable in their OWN cultures and countries. You people just seem to be allergic to truth and reality and it's exhausting.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    You might also watch this Gavin McInnes vs. Feminist discussion, where she makes excuses about barbarism in Middle Eastern societies, refusing to explicitly criticize their treatment of women, because they are a different culture and have their own standards
    Absolutely no surprise that you'd cite someone as intellectually dishonest as Gavin McInnes is--all of your tactics seem to come from his playbook > logical fallacies, false equivalencies, strawman arguments, half-truths, quarter-truths, and flat out lies. The woman in the video was, at times, RIGHTFULLY confused, befuddled, flabbergasted and left speechless by his lapses in actual truth and logic.

    1.) First of all, she made no excuse for the "barbarism in Middle Eastern societies"; Moreover, discussing the enforcement of hijabs/burkas is not the same thing as discussing the brutality of death by stoning--yet another strawman argument and false equivalency on your part.

    2.) Second of all, like any decent, balanced, nuanced, intellectually honest person, she declined to speak on a subject matter of which she was not informed. She didn't just spout unsubstantiated conjecture and flat out lies like someone in yours or Gavin's position would do. Concerning hijabs/burkas, because they are a form of style and self-expression, alongside having religious significance, the "ethics" of the issue becomes stickier and more complex (unlike stonings that are more objectionably and demonstrably wrong). True self-agency for women means that they can choose how they express themselves and what they do with their bodies; and even outside of the Middle East, some women choose to wear hijabs and the like because they subscribe to the corresponding ideals and value systems or even because they like the style and fashion. But it is also true that in some places, Islam is forced upon its women and they have little to no self-agency and subsequently, wearing a hijab/burka is mandatory and not doing so is punishable by death. Religious clothing is an issue that requires a bit more nuance in order to properly dissect and detangle what's "right" or "wrong." Therefore, it's extremely disingenuous to equate taking such a stance on that issue to being equivalent to not denouncing stonings and the like. Seriously, do better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    LeBrok,

    Poland doesn't need additional Muslim or African immigrants, as it has already welcomed over 1 million Ukrainian refugees and economic migrants since 2014. I think this data is true because recently I very often hear people speaking Ukrainian or Russian in my city, so there must be a lot of them here. They aren't causing any problems. Despite coming from a war-torn country, they want to work, not to collect welfare. Here some opinions of Ukrainian immigrants about life in Poland: http://wyborcza.pl/duzyformat/1,1272...-urzednik.html. IIRC even Jean-Claude Juncker recently admitted that Poland is now hosting almost as many refugees as Germany - the only difference being that we have the ones from Ukraine, not the ones from Syria or Iraq.

    Refugees should seek asylum in the nearest safe country - so for example refugees from Syria should seek asylum in Turkey.

    Nothing justifies their exodus from Turkey all the way to North-Western Europe.

    Ukrainians instead of going all the way to Sweden are doing exactly what they should, staying in the nearest safe country.

    This indicates that they are coming to find safety and some work, not free money.

    There will be even more of Ukrainian migrants, because Ukraine is now officially the poorest country in Europe (in 2014 they were richer than at least Moldova, Kosovo and a few more, but since the outbreak of war, their GDP is declining and they have reached the bottom).

    Hard to believe that in 1990 Poland and Ukraine had similar level of per capita GDP.
    I have no idea why your brain wandered away to far away land, if my argument was about your lack of objectivity and being riddled with fear to the point of depression. Do you have any idea why you exaggerate so much, why you put so much "colour" into your arguments, and to describe world in general? Why do you even think it is going to work when talking to smart people?
    This makes me worry more about your state of mind than about the world you are colouring.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Wanderlust,

    This discussion is a waste of time, and as always you focus on nitpicking.

    If I wrote dozens instead of thousands, you would argue that it is several.

    the burden of proof lies with YOU to defend your claim
    Yeah, but I'm not going to defend it, because I deliberately exaggerated.

    This is what you leftists are doing all the time, so why can't I do it once?

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    LeBrok,

    The blacks are coming
    Blacks have major shortages when it comes to the ability of abstract thinking, according to Dr Eugene Valberg:



    Blacks also have a much lower average cranial capacity than other races. The Anti-Racist Gould tried to cover-up this fact, but a 2011 study confirmed that Morton's measurements were correct and that Blacks have a much smaller average brain size:

    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/artic...al.pbio.1001071

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/...ll/474419a.html

    http://www.livinganthropologically.com/201...easuring-gould/

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/14/sc...kull.html?_r=0

    http://michael1988.com/?p=203

    You could argue how much impact on IQ does brain size have, but you cannot deny that Gould deliberately falsified data in order to claim that Blacks lag behind because of "evil Whiteys", "racist oppression", etc., and not due to their smaller brains.

    Davide Piffer in his 2015 "Estimating the genotypic intelligence of populations..." also shows that Blacks are genetically less intelligent than Whites. The gap is not as huge as current African scores on IQ tests would indicate, but it is still pretty large:

    https://thewinnower.com/papers/estim...and-migrations

    So indeed, it is worrying that the least intelligent population currently has the highest rate of natural growth:

    http://static1.techinsider.io/image/...red-legend.png


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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Wanderlust,

    This discussion is a waste of time, and as always you focus on nitpicking.

    If I wrote dozens instead of thousands, you would argue that it is several.



    Yeah, but I'm not going to defend it, because I deliberately exaggerated.

    This is what you leftists are doing all the time, so why can't I do it once?
    Lol Please don't go into law or anything law adjacent. I beg you. Unless you're litigating utter idiots of the highest order, you will embarrass yourself.

    I don't focus on "nitpicking," I focus of nuance and complexity, something you seem to be literally incapable of doing. I've only ever seen such mental and moral rigidity in autists and those with Asperger's Syndrome; it's remarkable. I honestly believe you can't help yourself, but that doesn't mean I won't challenge/debunk/degrade/belittle the moronic ideologies you subscribe to for the sake of the more "vulnerable" who make be watching.

    No one is deliberately exaggerating the things you say; you, yourself, make exaggerated statements and then are called out on it. It's very simple. Speak the truth and there will be no problems. You won't defend your claim because YOU CAN NOT. Stop lying. It's beneath the intelligence of the many smart people on this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    LeBrok,



    Blacks have major shortages when it comes to the ability of abstract thinking, according to Dr Eugene Valberg:



    Blacks also have a much lower average cranial capacity than other races. The Anti-Racist Gould tried to cover-up this fact, but a 2011 study confirmed that Morton's measurements were correct and that Blacks have a much smaller average brain size:

    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/artic...al.pbio.1001071

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/...ll/474419a.html

    http://www.livinganthropologically.com/201...easuring-gould/

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/14/sc...kull.html?_r=0

    http://michael1988.com/?p=203

    You could argue how much impact on IQ does brain size have, but you cannot deny that Gould deliberately falsified data in order to claim that Blacks lag behind because of "evil Whiteys", "racist oppression", etc., and not due to their smaller brains.

    Davide Piffer in his 2015 "Estimating the genotypic intelligence of populations..." also shows that Blacks are genetically less intelligent than Whites. The gap is not as huge as current African scores on IQ tests would indicate, but it is still pretty large:

    https://thewinnower.com/papers/estim...and-migrations

    So indeed, it is worrying that the least intelligent population currently has the highest rate of natural growth:

    http://static1.techinsider.io/image/...red-legend.png
    LOL The day you quote studies from those who are VETTED, SERIOUS, and RESPECTED within the scientific community, who don't have racist, bigoted, skewed agendas and give speeches at conferences that endorse White Supremacy or are published in magazines/journals that endorse White Supremacy, is the day when you will be taken seriously. Until then, you all are nothing but a joke. And funniest of all, you are LOSING "the war." The human trajectory is moving more towards diversity and inclusiveness, whether you like it or not. Sucks to be you, I suppose.

    And you should be the LAST person on EARTH to ever speak about the inability of other people to think abstractly. That most certainly is NOT your strong suit.

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    In Pakistan alone at least 1000 women are stoned to death per year, according to official estimates:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ill-happening/

    The human trajectory is moving more towards diversity and inclusiveness
    Not everywhere, perhaps in Sweden:


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    Wanderlust,

    You and other guys like you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster Of Racial Equality:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Wanderlust,

    You and other guys like you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster Of Racial Equality:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y201QzDdzbg
    By contrast this is the truth, genetic facts suggest that the POCs are not oppressed:


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    who don't have racist, bigoted, skewed agendas
    How is it a "racist agenda" to say - for example - that Australian Aborigines are only about 90% human ???

    We already know that they have a lot of Denisovan admixture (in addition to Neanderthal admixture). This is also the case with Africans, by they way, since they have Non-Neanderthal archaic admixtures as has been proven recently. Archaic admixtures in Sub-Saharan Africa probably come from Iwo Eleru and similar Hominids, who survived until surprisingly recently in Central Africa:

    http://yorubaparapo.com/thread/393/e...olution?page=1

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/09...-features.html

    Australoids also have admixture from an Early Out-of-Africa group that got mostly wiped out by Neanderthals and by Toba eruption:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ion-90-000-ybp

    We all admixed with very different archaic species, and this is one (but not the sole) reason why modern humans can be divided into races (sub-species). Some of archaic genes were selected for and rose to high frequency in certain populations:

    The Upper Paleolithic "Cognitive-Behavioral Revolution" happened around 50,000 years ago. And there is no evidence that Sub-Saharan humans were also affected by that cognitive-behavioral change. Only those living in Northern Africa started developing more complex tools, while tools in Sub-Saharan Africa remained simple. So there is no evidence that Sub-Saharans are modern humans in a cognitive sense (they are anatomically modern, but not necessarily behaviorally modern to the same extent as Eurasians):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavi...2Revolution.22

    Recently David Reich addressed this issue in his summary of the peopling of Europe and Eurasia.

    And if you watch his lecture you will notice, that he said: "maybe it also affected Sub-Saharan Africa":

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tory-of-Europe

    This is all very politically incorrect, but you cannot continue to suppress this evolutionary truth forever.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Tomenable

    Sharing your first people is really funny. The funny part isn't video. The funny point is that it is coming from you.

    In a second if I thought like you,

    What we do for this; right wing people more stupid then left wing people?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...le-racist.html


    As we think that Poland is one of the most right-wing country in EU, so rejection of this ban is too good. İt will decrease the population increasing level of low IQ had Polish people.

    Also In all European Sperm bank should use East Asian sperms and shouldn't accept European donors.

    https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

    Mongolia avereange IQ is also pertty high, should we think the create a New Golden Horde?



    Tomenable What come's next?

    "Women brain is smaller then men's", do you have a song for that too? As your song suggest that you should not let kebabs in Germany so I guess you also should not let women vote. It is clear they can't vote wisely with that small brains

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    What we do for this; right wing people more stupid then left wing people?
    The average right wing voter has lower IQ than the average left wing voter, because poor Whites are voting mostly for right wing nowadays. That was not always the case. In the past White lower class used to vote for leftists. It has changed because leftist parties became Anti-White and members of White lower class feel betrayed and feel that leftists no longer represent them.

    Also immigrants are taking jobs from lower class Whites, or at least they think that it is the case.

    And many of so called right wing parties in Europe are actually pretty leftist when it comes to their economic policies.

    This includes the Law and Justice party which currently rules in Poland. Their economic policies are pretty socialist.

    If Donald Trump focused more on convincing low and middle class Whites to vote for him, he could easily win this election. However, we can see that Trump's policies clearly favour White upper class, and are not ideal for White lower and middle class.

    Tomenable What come's next?

    "Women brain is smaller then men's"
    Women tend to be attracted to men who are smart and rich, not to men who aren't.

    So men have been naturally, socially and sexually selected for having larger brains than women, throughout thousands of years. Women complain that men have power, but whenever they want a husband, they try to find a powerful one.

    Usually women want their husband or partner to be smarter and richer than they are.

    Most of women want a brainy husband, so no surprise that men are on average smarter than women.

    On the other hand, large brain is not necessarily what men have been looking for in women during history.

    Also In all European Sperm bank should use East Asian sperms and shouldn't accept European donors.
    Women can choose what sperm they want, but they should be informed about race/ethnicity of the donor.

    you should not let kebabs in Germany so I guess you also should not let women vote.
    Voting and immigration are different things. In a true democracy by definition every citizen has voting rights.

    Turks should have voting rights in their own country, but they apparently prefer Erdogan's dictatorship.

    Mongolia average IQ is also pretty high
    Yes, and Mongolian immigrants easily integrate into European societies. But there are very few of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Result:


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