Facial Reconstruction of Mycaenean era (c.1500 BC) nobleman from ancient Greece

[Dagne]

Woa! Big guys big picture, your attention please and your comments.

At left a Med/Dinar; at right a Dinar/Med; beetween them somewhere is the griffin reconstruction (to clear my points)
the left with more Aegean bulby eyes, the right with sharp small eyes more close to northern/western folks. (Unfortunately not at that picture so recognizable)
Both today Greeks


View attachment 8128View attachment 8129
This is a Lithuanian - but could pass as a Greek especially when wearing a beard, what do you think? Could we say it is IE connection?

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

.
Hi @Dagne.
Nice example. I have no doubt that he is also enough "exotic" for the Baltic stock -meaning to say that he is not so represantative for your people;


(My impression from the photo you post.)
It is a good picture -the face- and very informative, the good reason for that is the light from -his- left side and apparently the shadows from the right side of his face.
So, i would say that he is long faced and probably I would classify him as dolicho/meso, he own a long nose thin,-small nasal breadth- in structure, also close to narrow; minimum frontal, not so extended bizygomatics allthough narrow temples, his jaw could vary, it is not so prominent chin modest in structure.
His lips is medium to plus fleshy, small ears, and small "moustache", the bones in general are not so angular but that dont suggest a round face but rather the opposite a long face with modest rectangular features in total. (from memory and first impression
Nice coloured eyes, rare enough for Greek, I suppose not for Latvian;
I would say also he's close to lepto/athlet -"giant"- and not so common to Baltics; (more heavy) so for that i would say that he is a "hybrid" for the standards of "your stock" but as well for the Greeks for other reasons.
(for joke; He could be a scythian... or a thracian.)


So to conclude.
He is good looking with "epic" dimensions and probably he was the "hero" of a significant match, a hero of the day... at a past day;( like at an homeric battle, with randomly periodic appearences of the heros at crucial incidents) a rembrance of the athletic ethos, the archetype of a "Hero" etc, etc. From that perspective is "Greek" enough with a symbolic mean. (the homeric one,) .
So, to guestion,-is he looking like Greek?- I would say almost to yes for a modern one; in general; -perhaps- but I am almost sure is probably not looked like the greek, old stocks in short terms.
Maybe, what I see is a beautiful person, mostly hybrid therefore with no very clear and dinstict features. In high risk-because i dnt know well your people general, but you can surprise me- I would say dinar/nord/; and dinar/balt; maybe; I wouldnt doubt for a respectable percentage of eastern origin and less a minority -of a possibly- chunk of a mediterranean stock, so to name it greek for the guestion.
He could be an homeric hero at a film as well a jesus of Nazareth; ( if you relief him from the tension at his right bow!-and you plus him hair! -why no, with such eyes.) he could be also a Slav king a Βθλγα - Idont know but having beard and being beautifull cannot make you Greek. (for your guestion)
I am sure that he is not the most representative for the modern Greeks as also for the old stocks and the reconstruction of "Griffin" as processed.


A nice example of very dinstictive and pure as a stock and I suppose enough representative for the "pure examples" we're in search -in general- is the Latvian, Arvydas Sabonis, a class of its own. (he is not a Cro-mag, he is a Cro-Sab! -Homo Sabonis!)

-how you possible classify him, it is familiar for you I suppose.
You like the Game...?

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

.
...lets stick for a while with the basketball players, while as we know the Myceneans were tall.


An other nice "example" more close -possibly- to the mycenean stock, as we disscussed and I consider, is...

http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub366/item2042.html

Nick Gallis & Drazen Petrovic !!! A med/dinar blend while N. Gallis is more close to "Griffin warrior" and Aegean flavoured... I cannot explain, I have no words for these "two lion hunters", do you remember how they moved, such elegant and stylish in all means. Pretty close, I think...


since we are talking for basketball and Greece...

and everybody is happy now.



(!) please check the raising arm of N .Gallis, look the shape, the figure, the move, the expresion at his face,-add him long curly hair and you have an early Kouros


yawyna,
All the examples I post above and at previous posts Do not just suggest that the Myceneans could play basketball...


but how Myceneans possibly could look like according to artifacts, ancient literature, modern people, and the blend of behaviours as commonly attested from the sources and as I experianced with my own senses.


( about I.E and me )
You know, I never "digest it" completely, but I follow the line from the experts, but in dinstant.


(me)
About lingustics generally I cannot propose much, allthough nearby my bed I have an etymology lexicon as well a Liddel & Scott ,anc gr./dictionary and a big fat prehistoric lexicon of greek names (above couple thousands, among others, the most weird title I have is a Lexicon of Abstract Terms. (for children !)
I am excited how the words sound, the meanings they carry, But I am mostly interested for that seconds before words could mean, explain and say.
I am interested for the commonly known as "Symbols". A fine example of that is the bronze hand- mirror between the other findings at the pylos excavations -of the "griffin man" as we discussing- and that mirror excites me.
Maybe, that mirror could tell us more about the "faces" that reflects inside it... and I mean deep in their soul and not only about the hands that hold it...


that I believe

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

Hey it looks that all gone for Mars... We are alone Dagne.

 

[Dagne]

I like your pictures, and yes,Nick Gallis & Drazen Petrovic look like the warriors from the Mycenaean Dagger. The hair is very similar, that's for sure
The Lithuanian basketball player looks rather typical especially in this picture. So you're right the beard does not make one look like a Greek ...

​

Do we have any aDNA from ancient Mycenaeans?

​

I can give you a choice of Lithuanian party leaders that participated in the October general election in Lith, any of them, especially round/square faced relating to Mycenaean stock? or they rather hunter gatherers?


View attachment 8135View attachment 8136

 

[MOESAN]

Theoritically even today most people believe, even in their tribes, that they came from Egypt, (E-Gyptians, Αι-Γυπτοι)
as the S Albanian Roma tribe,
but as you said it has been proved that their genes show India (H)

but not above Istros (Dunav),
this other tribe has nothing to do with India, but with Mongol invasions, straight to heart of Europe
the most typical difference is in Bulgaria, where Gypsies of one area, have nothing in common with gypsies of other area, like Stara Zagora and Haskovo
Besides even their language is different,
there are 2 languages among Roma populations, no matter religion,

you ask Roma people about that, how many major tribes and languages they have,
if you do not trust the photo I 'cherry-picked'
from 1980's there is an eternal effort by authorities in Greece to asimilate Roma in modern way of life,
there are results in many areas but poor to the volume effort.
and even today at Athens they are divided to 2 major settlements, and have nothing among them,
I told you search their saints, or their tribe name,
DID you?
No simply you repeat the known case of Indian genes that exist at south of Dunav Roma,
the just known, but if I ask why a tribe of gypsies of Romania or Russia or Greece etc have white skin, and mongol characteristics?
then I just cherry-pick,
that is because the stereotype in our mind for Roma is 'sticked' with only the one tribe, and one colour,


I agree we went away thread.
But Dark skin have not only Africa and India

I gave my thought about the greater number of these nomads; that said I'm not an expert on the matter; the fact some could have ties with Mongols is not in opposition to the concept of crossings during "travel", all the way. Concerning languages, I heard they were different, but isolation from sources + new contacts in small numbers can produce weird results.
To date, it's not my first hobby. Later perhaps. So you can forget my post if you want.

 

[MOESAN]

Yetos, just to say other origins for "Travellers" are possible, as you said: irish "Tinkers" are almost completely irish stock according to recent auDNA survey. We thoughts that before the study but it's good seeing it confirmed.

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

wrong post

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

I like your pictures, and yes,Nick Gallis & Drazen Petrovic look like the warriors from the Mycenaean Dagger. The hair is very similar, that's for sure
The Lithuanian basketball player looks rather typical especially in this picture. So you're right the beard does not make one look like a Greek ...

​

Do we have any aDNA from ancient Mycenaeans?

​

I can give you a choice of Lithuanian party leaders that participated in the October general election in Lith, any of them, especially round/square faced relating to Mycenaean stock? or they rather hunter gatherers?


View attachment 8135View attachment 8136

(the dagger)
Yes that dagger could say much... you know the hairs it wasnt the first indication for me, I motivated from the move, the shapes of the bodies, the reactions of the hunters and the artist himself. It is a great artifact with a lots of indications related with the Myceneans, and from an artistic perspective it is above the average as value. The artist not offer us a picture but you can almost sound the noise of the hunting action, the victim hunter, the tragedy, the big cat... There is a promise and a message inside it, that could be for ceremonial reasons sword, or a great remembrance gift.

Yes I choose in purpose without a beard examples -for you-, nice you mention it. I search randomly but pick in deep care. Actually is not "mine pictures" but I own the "directory" and that is for sure.



(about DNA)
"It is Sunday and the stores are closed, but we can find something at the fridge" ...

I dont know about these... either about cephalic index-s, numbers. etc. I am in search for the very essential element, that element which exists before sciences, before haplos and numbers as interpretations and observations could describe. It is a remembrance, a recall with the "true" and the "real" incident. Incident as art, incident also as a message. Are we, in a position to decode them; can we understand them;
If someone give us the "numbers" & the "haplogroups" -which I dont discard them at all- what can you do with them without that deep recall... that feeling, the only, that can ensure you and conveice you for something, like saying:


..." I always knew that"...


How to name that instict of the ancient therapist who chooses the proper herbs for every different sickness?... Based on what knowledge; and what data; and in what form of inspiration, enlighten him; and if someone passed that knowledge to the other, who is the first, which first knew it -the information, for the guality characteristics of the herb, the plants essence in it etc...?
*How to name that instict?
*Can you find that instict inside you?
*Is it true that "air" is the most essential "matter" in a childs ball?
(the "Air" as common to "useless" but also... to so "critical" !?)
also
*Have you ever sensed that occasionally you are in a telapathy connection mode with other forum members?
*Have you ever feel that you sounding the voices of them, dependent from your mood?
*Should I arrange an appointment next week with my shrink (psychiatrist)?...etrified:




(for the sample politics)
I wish not to engage I.E discussion to avoid politics. (just to know...!) but nothing could last for ever.I will put it simple: These are -Parpar-ες ,mean -not from pylos!.>> barbarian? //mod. slang. gre. παπάρας -paparas?, with many meanings. Ask for forum experts


In general are nordid/baltoids and baltid/nordoids with some different exceptional spices in some individuals like finnoids, armenoids & turanoid elements/features. (You wish for more detailed? )

I did a rough classification for every individual from memory and first impression, -nice game if you interested.
I reconsider your thought of guestion, and for that so I will visualise your guestion:

"...any of them, especially round/square faced relating to Mycenaean stock? or they rather hunter gatherers?"

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

(Photo)

http://content-mcdn.ethnos.gr/filesystem/images/20130208/low/pegasus_LARGE_t_1041_105915764.JPG
Nick Gallis (greece) & Tilt Sokk (estonia)


Here is two nice samples and one example.


How about to say the left as a Haunter and the right as an Mycenean? -Something went wrong?
We are confusing something...


It is true that we all share all the haunters instict or traits to say, in deep time. I think the comparisson for the era we discussing is not between Haunters and Agriculturists but between Seafarers and Continent habitants.


It is also obvious that:
Numbers is not always safe... Look how common the numbers can be. they share the same "minimum frontal" size, among others incommon (-ears,) and not incommon traits (-colours,-the dinstance between the eyes etc..). A dolicho (Gallis) Med/anatol with an meso/dolicho (Sokk) Balto/nord. There is a dinstance between them.
Numbers are just indications, numbers cannot provide anything... as the very essential feel as discussed.

so,
chorus: -mirror, mirror in the grave hole...
Who is the most Mycenean of -that two- all?
Why not to put it, just, into a... POLL. (!?) :grin:

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

(music intermission)
.

A music sample. I chose something very deep and very old.
I well related it with the -probably- stock of the people are discussing.


There are two versions of it, There is the originall which is documentated in real action and an remixed ambient/trance version. I will suggest the remixed for first approach and for second the original. Also an old documentary film (half an hour) of that "dark" fest.


The remixed
https://youtu.be/nss-c_1OI-4


The original
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1qpzQ8Qffs


The doc film. (~25min.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MhGITKz2tA

 

[Dagne]

View attachment 8158View attachment 8160
This is how Nick Gallis and Tiit Sokk looked like later in their lives. Overall there is no question who is Greek (Mycenaean[FONT=&quot]) [/FONT]and who is Estonian (Hunter). I suppose people change but not that much either through their life span or through the millennia ... Ancient Mycenaeans will come out closest to Greeks in aDNA tests when such will be available.

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

.
Someone for that helmet

from here

An amazing guy and a pure sample
from here

I have an item (scepter) like this. very rare among the others Greeks
from here

Bronze shepherd's crook
Period: Late Cypriot III
Date: ca. 1200–1050 B.C.
Culture: Cypriot
Medium: Bronze
Dimensions: H. 4 7/8 in. (12.4 cm)
Classification: Bronzes
Credit Line: The Cesnola Collection, Purchased by subscription, 1874–76
Accession Number: 74.51.5570

Description

This is one of six known pieces that are described as shepherd's crooks or scepters, although this is the only one with a tip curved to form a scroll. It was once attached to a wooden rod.
from here http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/74.51.5570/

 

[Yetos]

@ ΠΑΝΑΞ

with all my respect Sarakatsans I believe they are connected with Makedonians
all the places we find them, are were Makedonian nobilty left from Romans
upper Makedonia, Bulgaria, and Kynos Kephalai.

and also Kallash have the tribe Sarakatsi

 

[Angela]

Now we can't even have discussions about archaeology without some people ******** other groups out of prejudices or agendas? If some of you people don't learn from getting infractions then I guess stronger methods will have to be taken. This isn't theapricity or its new outpost anthrogenica.

You've been warned.

 

[Vallicanus]

Now we can't even have discussions about archaeology without some people ******** other groups out of prejudices or agendas? If some of you people don't learn from getting infractions then I guess stronger methods will have to be taken. This isn't theapricity or its new outpost anthrogenica.

You've been warned.

The Apricity is certainly a zoo and the same is becoming true of the ABF Forum but Anthrogenica has many serious posters, even Jean Manco, come on!

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

.
Thanks for the -spiritual- interaction... Let me clear my thesis.




Actually I didn't have the intention to relate them with the Myceneans, allthough as you probably noticed I post enough pictures of them to this thread.
Actually we were discussing, if it is possible to have a "reconstruction" without having genetic data.
so, I just follow the old fashioned process, at least the researchers did the same:


.The researchers used average face templates of 50 modern Greek makes that were 25 to 35 years old to reconstruct the eyes and nose.
Artifacts from the Mycenaean and Minoan civilizations were used to determine the Griffin Warrior's skin tone and hair color.

From an article of daily mail here
I think it is propriate, except the antiuiguity artifacts and depictions, it is usefull to "work also with some today "samples" individuals (excuse me for the unpopriate termination, samples, - by the way the science; of Anthropology is not highly estimated in Greece)

Anyway
The reason behind was, that Saracatsans/Karacatsans (an exonym from Ottoman occupation) are an ethnic minority, (almost 1-2%) and isolated and that means "pure" according always to scholars.
-especially:
The anthropologist G. Poulianos {chief director at the excavation of Archanthropos of Petralona- at Chalkidiki},
The glossologist Carsten Hoegg, who traveled twice to Greece between 1920 and 1925 and studied the dialect and narrations of the Sarakatsani, is arguably the most influential. He found no traces of foreign elements in the Sarakatsani dialect and no traces of sedentism in their material culture. Furthermore, he looked for examples of nomadism in classical Greece, similar to that of the Sarakatsani. He visited the Sarakatsani of Epirus and mentioned other groups with no fixed villages in several other parts of Greece as well.
John K Campbell historian, arrives at the conclusion that the Sarakatsani must have always lived in—more or less—the same conditions and areas as they were found in his days of research in the mid-1950s. He also highlights the differences between them and the Vlachs, regarding the Sarakatsani as a distinctive social group within the Greek nation.^[17] As a result of his field studies of the Sarakatsani of Epirus
,Nicholas Hammond, a British historian, considers them descendants of Greek pastoralists living in the region of Gramos and Pindus since the early Byzantine period, who were dispossessed of their pastures by the Vlachs at the latest by the 12th century.
Also:Georgakas (1949) and Kavadias (1965) believe that the Sarakatsani are either descendants of ancient nomads who inhabited the mountain regions of Greece in the pre-classical times, or they are descended from sedentary Greek peasants forced to leave their original settlements around the 14th century who became nomadic shepherds.
Angeliki Hatzimihali, a Greek folklorist who spent a lifetime among the Sarakatsani, emphasizes the prototypical elements of Greek culture that she found in the pastoral way of life, social organization and art forms of the Sarakatsani. She also points out the similarity between their decorative art and the geometric art of pre-classical Greece.
The -amazing and my hero- Sir Patrick Lee Fermor.


Anyway as Kavadias stated:
«Αν δει κανείς τους Σαρακατσάνους να περιφέρονται σε μια επαρχιακή πόλη, ξαφνιάζεται από την κορμοστασιά, την υπερηφάνεια και την ευγένειά τους. Ο Σαρακατσάνος δεν φοβάται ν' ατενίσει τον ήλιο κατάματα. Ανάμεσα σ΄ αυτόν και τον κόσμο δεν υπάρχει αδιάβατο χάσμα. Γιατί οι Σαρακατσάνοι και γενικότερα οι ορεινοί υπεράσπισαν πάντα ηρωικά την ελευθερία και διαφύλαξαν τις τεράστιες πηγές της ανανέωσης και της δημιουργίας που χαρακτηρίζουν τους Ελληνες.»

Translated
"If you see the Sarakatsanians wandering in a provincial city, you will surprised by their structure, pride and courtesy. Sarakatsanos is not afraid to look at the sun sharply. There is no intangible gap between him and the world. Because Sarakatsans and the mountainers in general always heroically defended freedom and preserved the vast sources of renewal and creation that characterize the Greeks. "
(from his book Nomad sheppards of mediterranean)

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

.
There was people living there even at late 60's
My father born in a cave till the age of six, and grow up at Pindus gorges
My grand mother was kidnapped and met her family almost a decade and more... I over exposed now.


These are the houses of the priviliged ones...


By Panagiotis Botsis - Own work, CC BY 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=4583502

Dont they look like Los Millares (spain) and Catal hoyuk (turkey) setlements?
Maybe the main difference with the greek ones is that -the greeks- was till recently in use.


Sorry, I dont want be arrogant and I am not ( I have the scepter*... with amazing zig-zag patterns !!!) but some "autochtones" will lose their tonight sleep... but not to worry, soon they will have a meet with oblivion...


(* the scepter reguires the specifigue Krania -Κρανιά wood the hardest of the penninsula, cutted at winter, and penetrate for fun -to the hands of an adolescent- a car door. or a boars skin. It is a lethal weapon for an adult and give critical hits to the head and maybe -Iam not sure for that- is the reason that owes the name krania. With the right process sounds like fiberglass. I personally tame them with water, Other greeks with fire.)




Π-anax

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

@ ΠΑΝΑΞ

with all my respect Sarakatsans I believe they are connected with Makedonians
all the places we find them, are were Makedonian nobilty left from Romans
upper Makedonia, Bulgaria, and Kynos Kephalai.

and also Kallash have the tribe Sarakatsi

Sorry Yetos, I will not elaborate it further not to derail the thread, We have to keep the lines of the thread.
but you always have a clue... Thanks.