Facial Reconstruction of Mycaenean era (c.1500 BC) nobleman from ancient Greece

This is a heat map of David's facia features based on his genes.
http://oi68.tinypic.com/2d7h2zk.jpg

And the authors says it is identical to Loshbour. David basically looks like an ancient WHG/EHG

I didn't end up doing one for Loschbour, because it was basically be the same as Davidski.

Now he also made one for Andronovo, and the difference is visible. While David/Loshbour have strongest affinity to modern North Europeans and peaking around the Baltics/Northeast Europe. Basically where WHG and EHG peaks today.

Andronovo shows an uniform "West Eurasian" look peaking actually in Europe(especially South) and West Asia while getting little weaker the deeper you go into Russia towards East. This must be the CHG/Iran_Neo, Anatolian_Neo effect.

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/28wkxmfda9r4icf5b.jpg
Unfortunately I couldn't find the Scythian sample yet but will add if I found them.
 
Last edited:
more to add.

The same user made predicated faces using a software on these genes and the results are actually exactly the way I argued, shows that the WHG guy Loshbour is typical broad faced and meso_brachycephalic type. While the Andronovo dude looks very similar to the author (French user).

Loshbour is broad faced meso_brachycephalic and has a face that can be found all around North Europe but especially around the Baltics.
http://oi63.tinypic.com/nqpkb8.jpg

This is how the software predicts the French User who looks simply as Mediterranean as it gets
http://i66.tinypic.com/ilb054.jpg

for comparison his profil with his real face
https://www.blogger.com/profile/10460980441040040539

Take in mind the software has some issues with the facial impression, the software obviously got right his cranial features but didn't seem to be accurate on facial impressions.

The same is the case with the Andronovo sample. The facial impression might not be 100% accurate but the fact that the heatmap showed him very similar to South Europeans and the prediction looking almost identical to that of the French user with the minimal difference of the French user being little darker, we can say that the Andronvo sample cranial wise looked more EEF/CHG than WHG or EHG.

Andronovo
http://de.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2hfna80&s=9#.V_vETyRX3XQ
 
Last edited:
more to add.

The same user made predicated faces using a software on these genes and the results are actually exactly the way I argued, shows that the WHG guy Loshbour is typical broad faced and meso_brachycephalic type. While the Andronovo dude looks very similar to the author (French user).

Loshbour is broad faced meso_brachycephalic and has a face that can be found all around North Europe but especially around the Baltics.
http://oi63.tinypic.com/nqpkb8.jpg

This is how the software predicts the Italian User who looks simply as Mediterranean as it gets
http://i66.tinypic.com/ilb054.jpg

for comparison his profil with his real face
https://www.blogger.com/profile/10460980441040040539

Take in mind the software has some issues with the coloring, the software obviously got right his cranial features but didn't seem to be accurate on the coloring.

The same is the case with the Andronovo sample. The coloring might not be 100% accurate but the fact that the heatmap showed him very similar to South Europeans and the prediction looking almost identical to that of the French user with the minimal difference of the French user being little darker, we can say that the Andronvo sample cranial wise looked much more EEF/CHG than WHG or EHG.

Andronovo
http://de.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2hfna80&s=9#.V_vETyRX3XQ
Wow, still not bad for the first try. I'm very excited about this development.
 
more to add.

The same user made predicated faces using a software on these genes and the results are actually exactly the way I argued, shows that the WHG guy Loshbour is typical broad faced and meso_brachycephalic type. While the Andronovo dude looks very similar to the author (French user).

Loshbour is broad faced meso_brachycephalic and has a face that can be found all around North Europe but especially around the Baltics.
http://oi63.tinypic.com/nqpkb8.jpg

This is how the software predicts the Italian User who looks simply as Mediterranean as it gets
http://i66.tinypic.com/ilb054.jpg

for comparison his profil with his real face
https://www.blogger.com/profile/10460980441040040539

Take in mind the software has some issues with the coloring, the software obviously got right his cranial features but didn't seem to be accurate on the coloring.

The same is the case with the Andronovo sample. The coloring might not be 100% accurate but the fact that the heatmap showed him very similar to South Europeans and the prediction looking almost identical to that of the French user with the minimal difference of the French user being little darker, we can say that the Andronvo sample cranial wise looked much more EEF/CHG than WHG or EHG.

Andronovo
http://de.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2hfna80&s=9#.V_vETyRX3XQ

Where can you get this software? What is it called? Sounds really interesting.
 
Where can you get this software? What is it called? Sounds really interesting.

I really don't know sorry but you could ask the user.

Here is his original post
Made some simulations for the components (using substractive morphing and my large personal collection of averages [ie. to get Northern out of Lviv 200% vectorial morph translation from Kalash42%-Saudi68% Hybrid to Lviv, repeated with 5 different groups per component]).
Got the following:
http://i65.tinypic.com/10wk85z.jpg [Southern]
http://i65.tinypic.com/2mmy33k.jpg [Northern]
http://i67.tinypic.com/x4hiqa.jpg [Subsaharan African]
http://i68.tinypic.com/2ltkraf.jpg [East Asian]

I then made some predicted faces
http://i65.tinypic.com/2hfna80.jpg [Andronovo]
http://i63.tinypic.com/nqpkb8.jpg [Loschbour]
http://i65.tinypic.com/5z1np3.jpg [Mota]
http://i66.tinypic.com/54c2sg.jpg [Ust-Ishim]

Caveats, it didn't do a very good job of replicating my own face (http://i66.tinypic.com/ilb054.jpg), but that's understandable considering the methods used. It didn't do a very good job at coming up with a Papuan-looking Papuan-simulation (http://i65.tinypic.com/24xgs9u.jpg), which does indicate we need to uncover quite a few more-markers.
 
Can you give a link to original website/blog/forum where he posts these reconstructions?
 
Can you give a link to original website/blog/forum where he posts these reconstructions?

Sure, it was in the comment section here

http://eurogenes.blogspot.de/search...0-07:00&max-results=10&start=20&by-date=false


The thing is these reconstructions and maps confirm what I have been saying and it also confirms what I thought about the recent study about CT culture, that the authors confuse Gracilization with Brachycephalization and that the statement "ancient mesolithic period H&G were less Brachycephalic" is absolutely incorrect when we take the reconstructions, genetic data etc into consideration.

What they most likely mean and what makes allot more sense, is gracilization. It is true that with the advent of agriculture Humans became more gracile from a former bigger statured Robust meso-dolichocephalic type to a smaller build less Robust meso-dolichocephalic type within some farmers.

While it is obvious to anyone with knowledge of Human looks that people with very broad (not roundish but broad ) faces and meso-brachycephalic crania are usually heavy in statue.

let me give some examples of what I mean

when this Robust dolicho-mesocephalic base farmer expanded ...
http://www.lebanesechristianhearts.com/images/home/4.jpg


over time some farming cultures went through gracilization because heavier bodies were of not much need anymore and become more like this..

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/international/tuerkei/1407/Bilder/prandelli-600.jpg
http://data.whicdn.com/images/150694808/superthumb.jpg
http://media0.faz.net/ppmedia/aktue...dth610x580/andrea-pirlo-und-die-italiener.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Raul_Gonzalez_2012_2.jpg


Some farmers became more gracile in statue/figure and smaller in height, because obviously not much use for it anymore. I think anyone has already noticed that people who are more active in strength heavy activities are usually heavier/stronger build. But there was actually not much change in crania as it is obvious from the data at hand and experience of where the people with longer heads are more common in contrast to where broader faces are.

This trend did not only happen with the Early Near Eastern Farmer immigrants however. When Farming spred to East Europe with mixing as well cultural influence, even the WHG and EHG H&G became more gracile, that is also what the study is actually implying that with the advent of agriculture everyone, even the H&G became more Gracile.

With them it had the effect that once very broad faced, meso-brachycephalic H&G with heavy statue like this....

http://hollywoodnewssource.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/dolph-lundgren-2.jpg
http://richestnetworth.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Bas-Rutten-Net-Worth.jpg
http://static.celebuzz.com/uploads/2014/08/26/kellan-lutz-expendables-3-08262014-600x450.jpg
http://static.prsa.pl/images/ab1e402e-e9f6-48d0-a463-7551ab681980.jpg

turned partly into this..
http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/581941/stream_img.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/10/article-2687885-1F893F6200000578-837_306x423.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3250/2695126370_a8852b28b3_b.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0TYKfPWhrF4/maxresdefault.jpg
It's a simple effect that people go through when they become sedentary and it is still going on in many parts of the world. So it doesn't has to do with genetic ancestry but cultural change that was brought obviously with agriculture.

However by Bronze Age something different happened. People who were more Dinarized and a mix of Brachycephalic and Dolichocephalic turned up.
 
Last edited:
The Roman busts always have a British look to them IMHO. I don't know if it's they were modelling themselves to look more like the Celtic people. Vespasian looks like a modern Irishman to me more than a modern Italian..then again, probably my bias since most Italians in Canada are from the south.

Busts of Archimedes, Plato, Aristotle...etc are also clearly west European looking, nothing at all like modern Greeks. Perhaps the busts were also Roman era and inaccurate. I'm doubtful any of these folks were blonde. Those traits appear to have a NE European origin, even in UK, blonde hair probably came in with north Germanic types and was rare among Celts.
 
Alan you are confusing cephalic index with facial length index once again.
 
The Roman busts always have a British look to them IMHO. I don't know if it's they were modelling themselves to look more like the Celtic people. Vespasian looks like a modern Irishman to me more than a modern Italian..then again, probably my bias since most Italians in Canada are from the south.

Busts of Archimedes, Plato, Aristotle...etc are also clearly west European looking, nothing at all like modern Greeks. Perhaps the busts were also Roman era and inaccurate. I'm doubtful any of these folks were blonde. Those traits appear to have a NE European origin, even in UK, blonde hair probably came in with north Germanic types and was rare among Celts.

Romans were Italics. It's just a branch of Celtic people, like Brythonics. All have their roots in central Europe c. 2500 BCE.
 
The Roman busts always have a British look to them IMHO. ..........Busts of Archimedes, Plato, Aristotle...etc are also clearly west European looking,

The lack of colour can be confusing, as subconsiously it makes us perceive the white colour of the washed out marble as skin. I have seen reconstructions of ancient Greek busts and statues based on traces of pigmentation that survived. I was surprised to find that they looked more west Asian than modern Greek.
Also, cranial features are quite similar between "caucasian" people, from West Asia to the Nordics, It is mostly pigmentation that makes subtle differences appear more pronounced. Take an ancient bust from Greece or Rome and paint it with dark colours and it will look convincingly middle eastern. Do the same with blond and blue and it could pass for a northerner in most cases.
 
Alan you are confusing cephalic index with facial length index once again.

Are you being sarcastic? Certanly I know the difference. When have I confused cephalic index with Facial length? I wrote longer heads not longer faces. But it is in general so that longer (longer is a relative term, I always made clear that I mean longer in comparison to very broad faces) faces are either connected to A: Meso- or Dolichocephalic people or B: Dinarized people. While extremely broad faces are always connected to brachy- or mesocephalic people. Everything else doesn't work in physical point of view.

Or are you telling me that there is any way that this guy is both very broad faced as well Dolichocephalic.
http://static.prsa.pl/images/ab1e402e-e9f6-48d0-a463-7551ab681980.jpg
http://topmmanews.com/wp-content/ga...otos/damian-grabowski-vs-david-huckaba-1b.jpg

As I wrote by Neolithic the Cephalic index didn't change much but gracilization took place. However Bronze Age is a different things. By Bronze Age a phenomenon happened. People who were more Dinarized and a mix of Brachycephalic and Dolichocephalic (Mesocephalic) turned up this I thing is typically the result of CHG, EEF, EHG crossing.

From my experience, from longest to broadest crania.
1. EEF/Anatolian_Neo pred. dolicho-mesocephalic
2. CHG/Iran_Neo pred mesocephalic
3. WHG/EHG pred meso-brachycephalic.
 
Last edited:
The Roman busts always have a British look to them IMHO. I don't know if it's they were modelling themselves to look more like the Celtic people. Vespasian looks like a modern Irishman to me more than a modern Italian..then again, probably my bias since most Italians in Canada are from the south.

Busts of Archimedes, Plato, Aristotle...etc are also clearly west European looking, nothing at all like modern Greeks. Perhaps the busts were also Roman era and inaccurate. I'm doubtful any of these folks were blonde. Those traits appear to have a NE European origin, even in UK, blonde hair probably came in with north Germanic types and was rare among Celts.

I think you've been watching too many BBC shows about Romans. The British people who look like the ancient Romans are the exception, not the rule. Please let me know how common these looks are among the modern British:

juliuscaesarillustration.jpg


Cicero

mjt.jpg


MTE5NDg0MDU0OTE4NDk3ODA3.jpg


Marcus-Porcius-Cato1.jpg

Portrait of Roman owner of a villa in Britain:
_65359417_romanportrait_caerleon.jpg


There's nothing at all "Nordic" about these people, no matter what their pigmentation.

Or you might want to take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUPYm06gVc
 
Ι am old fashioned, I cannot "digest" the digital attemption objects either the process...

Any comments, I randomly begin with the Minoans.
-We are viewing the same thing?





images
images
images
images
images
images
images
images
"-Blue haired-" Kυανοχαίτης



Τhe Minoan Prince and the ...King Theodorakis




If someone pleased a steppe imput to the stock, -maybe- the gentleman beside him, G.Dalaras.
images



-Any comments?
 
Last edited:
@Tomenable. The above example is not so great and especially the Kurgan.
Not only for its experiance of "Art" but also as study for anthropology. Good as average and more than enough "motivated"
which for the anthropological perspective- it reguires more"neutral" approach but not "dead" also.

The bronze Russian from Moesan, it is more successfull from that perspective.
 
[FONT=&quot]Ι am old fashioned, I cannot "digest" the digital attemption objects either the process...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Any comments, I randomly begin with the Minoans. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-We are viewing the same thing?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
images
images
images
images
images
images
images
images
"-Blue haired-" Kυανοχαίτης [/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Τhe Minoan Prince and the ...King Theodorakis[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If someone pleased a steppe imput to the stock, -maybe- the gentleman beside him, G.Dalaras.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
images
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]-Any comments?[/FONT]

If I am reading some of the reactions correctly, there is some disbelief that the Mycenaeans, not the Minoans, would be dark pigmented, or have those kinds of features.

I don't know why that should be the case. For one thing, this isn't Corded Ware we're talking about, but perhaps Yamnaya and Catacomb Cultures. They were by no means "northern" in pigmentation. In addition, the Mycenaeans would have married with the local stock by the time of the "Griffin warrior", who would look more like the Minoans perhaps?

This is how Mycenaean warriors were portrayed. I don't know why we'd doubt this is pretty accurate without ancient dna portraying a different kind of image. They're not servants, after all, or slaves.
MycenaeMuralTrans.jpg


As to what the first Mycenaeans looked like, I don't know, but I do know that in both Greece and Italy there are a good many modern people who are the doubles of the ancients in both paintings and statues, even to body type.

These are very familiar looks:
8898113f1dbb18426edf4927baa7d9d2.jpg


0cf09cca8dd993210fbbf5b144691a0a.jpg
 
Mate no offense but you seriously need to study the physical appearance of the Yamnayans more. Even if they came from Ukraine and South Russia absolutely nothing speaks for them being of light color.
No offense but u seriously need to learn how to read. As I've said in the post u quoted together with 4 previous posts repeatedly that I'm NOT taking pigmentation in consideration AT ALL.
 
I don't see what the big deal is about the features of the reconstruction. He doesn't in the slightest look Cro-Magnon. He looks more Greek like than anything else to me, or perhaps Turkish. I don't know why the fact that he doesn't look like a lot of people from the more northern parts of the Balkans is relevant at all, especially when we know how much Slavic migration took place in those areas.

What exactly is so "exotic" and un-Greek like about his features?

The Greeks I meet often look like this. Other than the fact that their eyes aren't closely set I think they look quite a bit like the "Griffin Warrior". These are all pretty well known Greek-Americans. I'm not saying all Greek Americans look like this, but on the other hand these aren't uncommon looks.

maxresdefault.jpg


John Koukounis:
koudounis-220x220.jpg


18_4.jpg


18_1.jpg


Daphnes_Restaurant_Founder_George_Katakalidis72dpiLG.jpg


Deano_Kastis_George_Lemonakis_United_Greek_Americans.jpg
 
I don't see what the big deal is about the features of the reconstruction. He doesn't in the slightest look Cro-Magnon. He looks more Greek like than anything else to me, or perhaps Turkish. I don't know why the fact that he doesn't look like a lot of people from the more northern parts of the Balkans is relevant at all, especially when we know how much Slavic migration took place in those areas.

What exactly is so "exotic" and un-Greek like about his features?

The Greeks I meet often look like this. Other than the fact that their eyes aren't closely set I think they look quite a bit like the "Griffin Warrior". These are all pretty well known Greek-Americans. I'm not saying all Greek Americans look like this, but on the other hand these aren't uncommon looks.
Looking like a lot of people from North of the Balkans? Slavic migration? I'm sorry, r u quoting me or someone else who actually mentioned such assumptions?

We have other reconstructions from Europe and all of them could fit even nowadays in the Balkans and Greece, but not our Griffin friend. He's too exotic to be Greek in our era. Perhaps back in the days he was a typical Mycenaean, I'm not disputing that.

But like I said, I see him fitting in modern Egypt and I don't see why any of us should be surprised or make a fuss about it as Europe went through a lot of changes genetically.

U can post as many big jawed modern Greeks but none will look anything like him. And if u do indeed still find someone even remotely similar, rest assured it will take u lot more time than finding actual Nordics or Balkan Borreby.
 
The Slavic migrations into the Balkans are an assumption, now? That's settled, as far as I'm concerned, based both on the historical record, genetics, and linguistics, and it's settled for virtually anyone who knows anything about any of those disciplines, except for some south Slavs who can't accept that their language is a late comer to the Balkans, as well as part of their ancestry.

So, I repeat, why would a Mycenaean necessarily look like a Slavic admixed Balkanite?

For your information, it took five seconds to find those pictures. Just google "Greek Americans". There was no cherry picking, and yes, they resemble him, within the limits of a computer generated picture, and the fact that some of them have lighter pigmentation. How you can supposedly come from the Balkans and not recognize that look is beyond me.

You have yet to name one feature that is so "exotic" and un-Greek like.

You know what, forget it. There's obviously some subtext here, so believe whatever you want, but there is nothing particularly Egyptian looking about that reconstruction. Maybe you should take a look at some Egyptian art or even modern crowd scenes from Egypt. Most Egyptians have quite a bit of SSA. There's nothing SSA about the Griffin Warrior reconstruction. Whatever resemblance exists is because both groups, Greeks and Egyptians both, have a lot of ancestry from the Mediterranean.
 

This thread has been viewed 76177 times.

Back
Top