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Thread: New map of Y-haplogroup J2b1 (M205)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There are not neolithic and copper age J2 (except Sopot who is important for my theory) because we have not aDNA from neolithic, copper age and early bronze age from Italy and Balkans where J2 made an important percentage of modern population. Thinking that this Y-Chromosome is introduced in historical times is a nonsense in my opinion. When we have more samples from Mediterranean Europe we can take more accurate conclusions.
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    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    Are you from montenegro if you dont mind me asking?If so could you possiably tell me what tribe you hail from thanks.
    No, I'm Croatian Serb, but my brotherhood originated from northwestern Montenegro.

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    Hello everyone. I am J2b1-M205 from Leskovac, Serbia. My ancestors were living in Novo Selo near Grdelica for a long time.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In 700 BC in Transilvania came a Scythian-iranian tribe called Agathyrsi:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathyrsi
    They were assimilated by dacians in a few centuries. The Agathyrsi area coincide with the J2b1 higher concentration in Transilvania that we can see in this map.
    The Kriči tribe seem to be a preslavic population from Montenegro:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kri%C4%8Di
    Their older origin is from West Transilvania - Crișana Region - name coming from the 3 rivers called Criș
    http://www.incogniterra.org/pages/img/regions/Crisana2.jpg
    In the region of Agathyrsi in Transilvania there are a lot of Iranian names exaclty like in Iran. Zarand Mountains (In Iran and in Transilvania), Carand (Transilvania)- Karand (Iran), Abrud(Transilvania)- Abrud (Iran).
    Pottery found in Agathyrsi sites is exactly like iranian from the same time.
    That means there was a fast migration tribe from Iran through North of Black see to Romania- more exactly Transilvania. They must of carryed this J2b1.
    From Transilvania it must have spread to Balkans. But I believe it must have been also other wawe of iranian J2b1 that spreed it to Greece , Italy and Mediterana.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Yes, there was two late Neolithic J2's in Sopot and Lengyel (Hungary). At the time they were not tested downstream of J2-M172, so their subclades are unknown. My guess is that they both are more likely to turn out J2a.


    Regarding J2b2a-M241, your analysis seems to be all wrong! Just because you see a spot of it in Volga region, it doesn't mean it was spread from the Steppe to South Asia and Europe.
    J2b2a-M241 split in early Neolithic to J2b2a-L283 (Balkans/Europe) and J2b2a-Z2432 (South Asia): https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

    All indications are that the Neolithic split was somewhere in the area of Western Iran to Caucasus with Z2432 expanding into South Asia during the Neolithic. As you can see the South Asian Z2432 branch has a TMRCA of ~7100 ybp, which is much earlier than Indo-Aryan expansion to the area.

    The harder question at this point is when the 'European' L283 branch (TMRCA 5900 ybp) arrived to SE Europe. It seems most likely it was in the period between the Chalcolithic to Early Bronze Age. This is reinforced by the fact that RISE408 LBA Armenia was tested as J2b2a-L283>Z600 (xZ627), which is en early split of L283. The more likely migration was from Armenia/Anatolia to SE Europe through northern Anatolia, or even straight through the Black Sea would be possible. I suppose L283 could've gone north through the Caucuses to the Steppe and became part of BA expansion to SE Europe, but it seems unlikely at this point. Also the Volga-Ural J2b2a-L283 belongs all under J-Y12000 and has a TMRCA of 1600 ybp, as you can see on the bottom of L283 YFull tree.
    Sorry, I did not notice this post until today.

    You are right that J2b2 split in two branches in the Neolithic. However it certainly did not come to the Balkans/Europe during the Neolithic. There have been hundreds of Neolithic European samples tested to date and J2b has never been among them. So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

    I agree that the Z2432 branch might have headed straight from Iran to South Asia during the Neolithic. But it could just as well have moved to Central Asia and have been picked up by the Indo-Iranians later on. There is just no enough data from Central Asia at present to know how much of it is L283 and how much is Z2432. What is sure is that there is also some L283 in India as well as Armenia and Lebanon (all three belonging to the Z628 subclade with a TMRCA of 4400 ybp at Yfull) , so L283 must have an IE connection from the northern Steppe/Volga-Ural region, where the Indo-Iranian originated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Sorry, I did not notice this post until today.

    You are right that J2b2 split in two branches in the Neolithic. However it certainly did not come to the Balkans/Europe during the Neolithic. There have been hundreds of Neolithic European samples tested to date and J2b has never been among them. So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

    I agree that the Z2432 branch might have headed straight from Iran to South Asia during the Neolithic. But it could just as well have moved to Central Asia and have been picked up by the Indo-Iranians later on. There is just no enough data from Central Asia at present to know how much of it is L283 and how much is Z2432. What is sure is that there is also some L283 in India as well as Armenia and Lebanon (all three belonging to the Z628 subclade with a TMRCA of 4400 ybp at Yfull) , so L283 must have an IE connection from the northern Steppe/Volga-Ural region, where the Indo-Iranian originated.
    L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Well, his mother was mtDna I1a1, which might account for the steppe percentage? Of course, the mtDna and yDna might have traveled together.

    I don't know whether it went from the Caucasus or Anatolia to the steppe and then to Europe, but if the Volga samples are younger than the Balkan samples, how is that proof of that hypothesis?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Sorry, I did not notice this post until today.

    You are right that J2b2 split in two branches in the Neolithic. However it certainly did not come to the Balkans/Europe during the Neolithic. There have been hundreds of Neolithic European samples tested to date and J2b has never been among them. So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

    I agree that the Z2432 branch might have headed straight from Iran to South Asia during the Neolithic. But it could just as well have moved to Central Asia and have been picked up by the Indo-Iranians later on. There is just no enough data from Central Asia at present to know how much of it is L283 and how much is Z2432. What is sure is that there is also some L283 in India as well as Armenia and Lebanon (all three belonging to the Z628 subclade with a TMRCA of 4400 ybp at Yfull) , so L283 must have an IE connection from the northern Steppe/Volga-Ural region, where the Indo-Iranian originated.
    There is not any significant J2b2-L283 in India. In fact, there is only one person that I know of from India who is L283>>Z628+ (who ultimately may or may not be of European origin), everyone else is under J2b2-Z2432.
    I do agree with the rest for the most part. However, as I have mentioned here the present Volga/Ural J2b2 is not an evidence that L283 came from the Steppe, as you have suggested (even though I agree that it eventually​ most likely migrated from that direction).

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.
    Early to Middle Bronze Age, as it is from 1700-1500 BCE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.
    I'm wondering about that too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier1768 View Post
    Thanks, Twilight.
    I'm glad that other people, who don't belong to our haplogroup, shows interest about it.

    We tested few guys from Kriči tribal area (Kričak, northwestern Montenegro) and few guys who have oral tradition about origin from Kriči tribe (one of them has surname Krička and he originated from Kričke village in Dalmatia, and according to tradition that village was founded by refugees from Kriči tribal area).

    Biggest problem about Kriči tribe is that they were first overrun by Drobnjaci tribe (I1-P109), after that Ottomans conquered that area, and today they not exist as organized tribe, so we must look for families who have oral tradition about origin from them, families from their ex-tribal area, families with similar surnames (Kričak, Krička, Kričkić, Kričković).
    Interesting, maybe my hg has some connection to this tribe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.
    Alexander the Great theory is overblown. First of all Alexander in India stood for few months at most, and Alexanders Dna footprint in India is Zero. Turks stood 500 years in Greece and still they barely left 15% of their genes for so long time in general Greek population.

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    While we're on the subject of Alexander The Great. It's kinda interesting that Makedonija has the Mak which means in Serbo-Croatian Bosnian whatever Poppy so Poppy seeds = Mak
    Macedonian word for poppy is Afion... Afganistan?
    The Greek word for poppy is Paparouna

    Did any fancy linguist academics notice this interesting connection...









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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    While we're on the subject of Alexander The Great. It's kinda interesting that Makedonija has the Mak which means in Serbo-Croatian Bosnian whatever Poppy so Poppy seeds = Mak
    Macedonian word for poppy is Afion... Afganistan?
    The Greek word for poppy is Paparouna

    Did any fancy linguist academics notice this interesting connection...
    In ancient Greek it is μήκων (Αttic), μάκων (Doric) (~mekon - ~makon)

    (In general Doric / NW Greek seems to be closer to Proto-Greek)

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ghlight=mh/kwn

    The modern Greek word comes from Latin maybe through Aromanian (?).

    Irrespective of the connection you tried to make it's interesting that a cognate of an Homeric word survives in Slavic languages. [Interestingly Hungarian too if Google Translate doesn't lie]

    Concerning the rest in modern Greek there is a word αφιόνι (~afjoni) too (suppodedly with Greek origin (opos), it probably came here again as an Arabic loan to Turkic) and means poppy / opium but it is less commonly used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    In ancient Greek it is μήκων (Αttic), μάκων (Doric) (~mekon - ~makon)

    (In general Doric / NW Greek seems to be closer to Proto-Greek)

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ghlight=mh/kwn

    The modern Greek word comes from Latin maybe through Aromanian (?).

    Irrespective of the connection you tried to make it's interesting that a cognate of an Homeric word survives in Slavic languages. [Interestingly Hungarian too if Google Translate doesn't lie]

    Concerning the rest in modern Greek there is a word αφιόνι (~afjoni) too (suppodedly with IE root from Hellenistic Greek through Arabic and Turkic) and means poppy / opium but it is less commonly used.
    Not sure what to make out of this, I tend to not jump to conclusions and just dive into all sorts of theories like some people do, I like concrete evidence and logic before I believe in something. But this is indeed very interesting, maybe proto-greeks have South Slavic roots. Of course that's not a popular idea cuz the mainstream narrative (mainly in the west) is that South Slavs migrate to the Balkans in the 6th or whatever century as Avar slaves while the Ilyrians vanish.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    Not sure what to make out of this, I tend to not jump to conclusions and just dive into all sorts of theories like some people do, I like concrete evidence and logic before I believe in something. But this is indeed very interesting, maybe proto-greeks have South Slavic roots. Of course that's not a popular idea cuz the mainstream narrative (mainly in the west) is that South Slavs migrate to the Balkans in the 6th or whatever century as Avar slaves while the Ilyrians vanish.
    The easy solution is to say the word was 'Paleo-Balkanic' or something.

    Western and not western scholars have biases. When a medieval Greek text talks about some Sclavenes coming from the 'Western Ocean' the western scholar thinks the Baltic Sea which can be correct but I thought that if the geographical knowledge of the author was that bad maybe he could have called the Adriatic as 'the Western Ocean'(?)

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    Yeah I don't take them too seriously or some allegedly medieval texts. Stories people tell does not automatically=fact either.
    But that's just me I'm very skeptical of BS but some people like it.

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    J2b in Balkan Bronze Age by the way and a J2 in Austrian LBK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The easy solution is to say the word was 'Paleo-Balkanic' or something.

    Western and not western scholars have biases. When a medieval Greek text talks about some Sclavenes coming from the 'Western Ocean' the western scholar thinks the Baltic Sea which can be correct but I thought that if the geographical knowledge of the author was that bad maybe he could have called the Adriatic as 'the Western Ocean'(?)
    Maybe. But first we have to decide about the existence or not of this Sclavenes, because the last studies deny their existence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    While we're on the subject of Alexander The Great. It's kinda interesting that Makedonija has the Mak which means in Serbo-Croatian Bosnian whatever Poppy so Poppy seeds = Mak
    Macedonian word for poppy is Afion... Afganistan?
    The Greek word for poppy is Paparouna

    Did any fancy linguist academics notice this interesting connection...








    There are no scholars who deal with this kind of interpretation, because it's a speculation. There are no connections between ancient Macedonian language and the slavic language of serbs, croats or bosnians.
    I can make a very logic connection between the word Emathia and Macedon and i can explain it in Albanian language. But this are just personal observations. If you ask any average Albanian, he can make this explanation. But not necessarily every logical explanation is the real truth. This things are complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.
    Alexander's army never reached India proper, only Pakistan, and they didn't stay long (326 to 325 BCE), not long enough to have a noticeable genetic impact with only 15,000 soldiers, who were defeated and hurried back to West Asia.

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    Off topic

    "The name Macedonia (Greek: Μακεδονία, Mak edonía) comes from the ethnonym Μακεδόνες (Makedónes), which itself is derived from the ancient Greek adjective μακεδνός (makednós), meaning "tall", possibly descriptive of the people. It also shares the same root as the noun μάκρος (mákros), meaning "length" in both ancient and modern Greek. The name is originally believed to have meant either "highlanders", "the tall ones", or "high grown men".Robert S. P. Beekes supports the idea that both terms are of Pre-Greek substrate origin and cannot be explained in terms of Indo-European morphology."

    The term comes from Greek. But if we look for the source and according to Beeks we possibly may have to dig deep into Paleobalkan languages (seems legit).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakattack View Post
    Off topic

    "The name Macedonia (Greek: Μακεδονία, Mak edonía) comes from the ethnonym Μακεδόνες (Makedónes), which itself is derived from the ancient Greek adjective μακεδνός (makednós), meaning "tall", possibly descriptive of the people. It also shares the same root as the noun μάκρος (mákros), meaning "length" in both ancient and modern Greek. The name is originally believed to have meant either "highlanders", "the tall ones", or "high grown men".Robert S. P. Beekes supports the idea that both terms are of Pre-Greek substrate origin and cannot be explained in terms of Indo-European morphology."

    The term comes from Greek. But if we look for the source and according to Beeks we possibly may have to dig deep into Paleobalkan languages (seems legit).


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    And if Makedonian mean tall, in Albanian language before the standardization of the language I Math mean tall for men and E Mathe mean again tall for women. I said before the standardization of Albanian language, because today we use to say I Madh and E Madhe, but the elders continue to say E mathia or e mathija.

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    Emathia is not related etymologically with Macedonia.

    The region is even mention by Homer and the word is PIE derived. Means sandy land.

    Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    There are no scholars who deal with this kind of interpretation, because it's a speculation. There are no connections between ancient Macedonian language and the slavic language of serbs, croats or bosnians.
    I can make a very logic connection between the word Emathia and Macedon and i can explain it in Albanian language. But this are just personal observations. If you ask any average Albanian, he can make this explanation. But not necessarily every logical explanation is the real truth. This things are complicated.
    So you're saying no speculation is ever done by any scholars? That's like saying scientists never experiment things.
    And you're also saying that truth is sometimes too complicated to be logical. So what is your point exactly?
    You don't have to answer btw it's more a rhetorical question. I don't know if you're trying to suck me into some senseless debate but it won't work, as I said I have low patience and tolerance for that.
    You believe whatever you want, and I'll believe what I want. The sooner you make peace with that the better trust me. Save yourself the time and energy.

    And if you trust wikipedia it basically says not much is known about the ancient Macedonian language (no surprise there) and it's "speculated" that it might have been a variety of ancient Northwestern Greek dialects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    So you're saying no speculation is ever done by any scholars? That's like saying scientists never experiment things.
    And you're also saying that truth is sometimes too complicated to be logical. So what is your point exactly?
    You don't have to answer btw it's more a rhetorical question. I don't know if you're trying to suck me into some senseless debate but it won't work, as I said I have low patience and tolerance for that.
    You believe whatever you want, and I'll believe what I want. The sooner you make peace with that the better trust me. Save yourself the time and energy.

    And if you trust wikipedia it basically says not much is known about the ancient Macedonian language (no surprise there) and it's "speculated" that it might have been a variety of ancient Northwestern Greek dialects.
    Right, i will save my time and energy and i will answer you with a rhetorical question. What have to do Vuk Karadžić with this story?

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