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Thread: Steppe as secondary PIE

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    Steppe as secondary PIE

    Johannes Krause, and perhaps Wolfgang Haak as well, have suggested another model for PIE language origin and dispersal, at least if this slide from one of Krause's recent speeches is any indication.

    Krause PIE model.jpg

    I don't think this is necessarily an endorsement of any sort of Anatolian farmer hypothesis a la the Renfrew model, at least not the original one.

    Rather, it seems to address a possibility we've also discussed here, i.e. that there was a pre-PIE language or a first stage language leading to the Anatolian languages, and then a movement onto the steppe, the European IE languages spreading from there.

    They also seem to propose a spread of Tocharian and the eastern PIE languages directly from Anatolia, not from the steppe.

    As to the first half of their proposal, I wonder if perhaps they've found a lot of R1b in or south of the Caucasus that is like Yamnaya R1b but predates it. That would take care of the CHG in Yamnaya and Catacomb without all the stealing wives business. If that's what leads them to this, then Krause really does have a loose mouth. (Didn't he leak something before?)

    As to the second half, I have to think about it some more. How does R1a Z93/94 fit into all of this? No wonder Eurogenes was going on trying to discredit Gramkelidze and Ivanov. He must have gotten wind of it, and was trying to do a pre-emptive strike. Maybe the Reich Lab might want to move up the publication date of their paper.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is old news.


    There is a consensus among the current established (supreme) academia. And that is that there were 2 stages of PIE. The early one and the first 1 were PIE folks who brought R1b into the Maykop/Yamnaya Horizon from the Iranian Plateau


    Tocharians has to be from West Asia, because they had West Asian auDNA and belonged most probably to J2a and R1a-Z93 Y-DNA haplogroups. Both haplogroups are native to the Iranian Plateau.


    Gramkelidze & Ivanov model is NOT the 'Anatolian' Model, but it has been called the so called 'Armenian' Model. It is a different model and should be actually renamed into the 'Western Iranian Plateau' Model.



    Gramkelidze & Ivanov were ahead of their time and came to the right conclusion even before DNA-tests became popular. They should win the Nobel Price for being groundbreaking scientist who came with good answers!

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    Finally the model I and many other have been proposing is been taken into account. Steppes as secondary homeland for most Indo European groups but the most archaic and first to split, did it already around the region of the Iranian_Plateau, Caucasus and East Anatolia.

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    they seem to have some 4,5 ka Indus valley DNA, which is halfway the Indus valley civilisation

    Tocharian is still a question mark

    R1a CW would be R1b Yamnaya - derived

    and what about Sintashta?

    there is a lot to explain here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Tocharians has to be from West Asia, because they had West Asian auDNA and belonged most probably to J2a and R1a-Z93 Y-DNA haplogroups. Both haplogroups are native to the Iranian Plateau.
    We have no Tocherian DNA so those are just guesses. There were Bronze age Europeans with 90%+ R1a-Z93 living near where Tocherians lived, so if Tocherians had Z93 that isn't evidence they were of West Asian origin. You can argue those BA Euros with R1a Z93 got it from West Asia. They had ancestry in West Asia as do modern Europeans so this wouldn't make them West Asian, they were autosomally Europeans and from the continent of Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    they seem to have some 4,5 ka Indus valley DNA, which is halfway the Indus valley civilisation

    Tocharian is still a question mark

    R1a CW would be R1b Yamnaya - derived

    and what about Sintashta?

    there is a lot to explain here
    What is about Sintashta? There is NOTHING special about Sintashta. Sintashta was way to young to be proto-anything. It is not really an interesting culture to be studied. They were just a mixed race of native Steppe aboriginals and the incoming Iranians from the Iranian Plateau.

    According to the Armenian Model of Ivanov the proto-Indo-Iranian has been born in Northern Iran among the same PIE people whose brothers migrated into Maykop/Yamnaya.

    proto-Indo-Iranian languages were West Asian in nature native to the Iranian Plateau and spread via the Iranian Plateau into the Steppes and Northern India. In turn Iranian / Aryan languages are native to the Iranian plateau and were involved from the Indo-Iranian. That's why proto-Indic and proto-Iranic had an ergativity construction in their grammar.


    I've seen the video (his lecture). And it seems that he came to this conclusion because only DNA from 'Northern' Iran is binding ancient Indo-Europeans from Yamnaya, Central Asia and Northern India with each other. According to him DNA from the 'Northern' Iran is very different from the DNA of the Anatolian Farmers and that only 'Northern' Iranian DNA is common among Yamnaya, Central Asia (Tocharian) and Northern India.

    All those ancient historic Indo-European lands are connected with the DNA from the so called 'Northern' Iran = on Iranian Plateau just south of the Caspian Sea.

    It seems that ancient Tocharians were full of that 'Northern' Iranian DNA


    abc.jpg

    It seems that this picture is from Johannes Krause's not yet published academic paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    We have no Tocherian DNA so those are just guesses. There were Bronze age Europeans with 90%+ R1a-Z93 living near where Tocherians lived, so if Tocherians had Z93 that isn't evidence they were of West Asian origin. You can argue those BA Euros with R1a Z93 got it from West Asia. They had ancestry in West Asia as do modern Europeans so this wouldn't make them West Asian, they were autosomally Europeans and from the continent of Europe.
    There is a lot R1a-Z93 and huge amounts of the Iranian Plateau (Aryan) DNA in the areas where the Tocharians lived. In those areas of the ancient Tocharians there are no 'European' haplogroups. Central Asia is mostly J2a and R1a-Z93.


    R1a-Z93 can't be from Europe. That's impossible since all ancient ancestros have been found on the Iranian Plateau.


    Like R1b in Yamnaya, so was R1a hardcore Iranian Y-DNA haplogroup native to the IRANian Plateau, the legendary, mythical and glorious ARYANA VEYAH, the land of the mighty Aryans.


    " The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India. "

    "
    Furthermore, BATWING results indicate that the Afghan populations split from Iranians, Indians and East Europeans at about 10.6 kya (95% CI7,100–15,825), which marks the start of the Neolithic revolution and the establishment of the farming communities."

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288


    "
    Origin of hg R1a

    To infer the geographic origin of hg R1a-M420, we identified populations harboring at least one of the two most basal haplogroups and possessing high haplogroup diversity.
    Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in our data set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2*(xM417/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus. Owing to the prevalence of basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a.
    "

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf

    "
    Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf

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    They certanly have new DNA from South_Central Asia, Indus Valley and West Asia when they come up with such a new model, they definitely found something. There were rumors around that they had found R1a z93 in Indus Civilization prior to the actual Indo_Aryan migration.. When I look at the screenshot however I see that Harrapa was pretty much Iran_Neo and ASI. So if they found R1a there, it certanly didn't came from the Steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Finally the model I and many other have been proposing is been taken into account. Steppes as secondary homeland for most Indo European groups but the most archaic and first to split, did it already around the region of the Iranian_Plateau, Caucasus and East Anatolia.
    Even if true (which I doubt), this model still doesn't alter the Steppe origin of Proto-Indo-Iranian, which was not one of the most archaic and first to split IE languages, but rather one of the least archaic and last to split (from PIE continuum) IE languages.

    Proto-Anatolian split from PIE continuum first, while all the rest of IE split much later.

    Of course this alone is not a proof that Proto-Anatolian did not originate from the Steppe.

    But it seems that Proto-Anatolian speakers split from the rest of PIE dialect continuum before the emergence of Yamnaya culture. Under Steppe Origin theory, they split from Sredni Stog culture (which was PIE in this theory), forming Cernavodă culture.
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et1SkVldiHI

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    By the way, what is "secondary PIE"? Is there even such a thing?

    If so, then maybe there was also "proto-PIE" ("proto-proto-IE")?:

    http://www.pcgamesn.com/far-cry-prim...istics-experts


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Even if true (which I doubt), this model still doesn't alter the Steppe origin of Proto-Indo-Iranian, which was not one of the most archaic and first to split IE languages, but rather one of the least archaic and last to split (from PIE continuum) IE languages.

    Proto-Anatolian split from PIE continuum first, while all the rest of IE split much later.

    Of course this alone is not a proof that Proto-Anatolian did not originate from the Steppe.

    But it seems that Proto-Anatolian speakers split from the rest of PIE dialect continuum before the emergence of Yamnaya culture. Under Steppe Origin theory, they split from Sredni Stog culture (which was PIE in this theory), forming Cernavodă culture.
    Wrong.

    Iranian has to many different dialects and different languages to be of young age.


    Iranian is actually one of the OLDEST Indo-European languages. It was already spoken at the era of BMAC!!! BMAC was ALREADY East Iranian.


    Together with the Anatolian Hittites language, proto-Iranian is the oldest IE language ever attested in written form in Western Asia (Rojava, Western Kurdistan) among the Mitanni. The oldest proto-Iranian language ever attested was Kurdistan among the Mitanni. This fact should already ring some bells. Iranian is at least as old as Anatolian languages. Iranian already existed at least 3,500 years ago. Never heard of Graeco-Aryan connection? At the times when ancient sacred books of Ahura Mazda were written in Avestan language, people in Europe were still illiterate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan


    Btw, this map





    is very similar to this map of the Armenian Model of Ivanov:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    By the way, what is "secondary PIE"? Is there even such a thing?

    If so, then maybe there was also "proto-PIE" ("proto-proto-IE")?:

    http://www.pcgamesn.com/far-cry-prim...istics-experts

    Secondary PIE was Yamnaya. Yamnaya people were already 'mixed' people between Iranians (PIE) and Steppes aboriginals (non-PIE). Yamnaya was not 'pure' Indo-European, but a hybrid between PIE from Iran and Steppe natives. Yamnaya was only 50% Indo-European. People of Europe are descendants of those mixed Yamnaya folks. Yamnaya folks Indo-Europized Europe. That's why Yamnaya is the homeland of the Indo-European speakers IN Europe. While the original URHEIMAT was Iran.


    And some ancient Indo-Europeans, like (proto-)Iranians, Anatolians, Tocharians etc. were not from Yamnaya, but directly from the FIRST PIE source, the Iranian Plateau..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Even if true (which I doubt), this model still doesn't alter the Steppe origin of Proto-Indo-Iranian, which was not one of the most archaic and first to split IE languages, but rather one of the least archaic and last to split (from PIE continuum) IE languages.
    That is correct at least the East Iranic branch originated in the Steppes not much doubt there. However the origin of West Iranic is still a mystery and Indo_Aryan seems to be from the contact zone of Sintashta and BMAC( Basically Andronovo).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Johannes Krause, and perhaps Wolfgang Haak as well, have suggested another model for PIE language origin and dispersal, at least if this slide from one of Krause's recent speeches is any indication.

    I don't think this is necessarily an endorsement of any sort of Anatolian farmer hypothesis a la the Renfrew model, at least not the original one.

    Rather, it seems to address a possibility we've also discussed here, i.e. that there was a pre-PIE language or a first stage language leading to the Anatolian languages, and then a movement onto the steppe, the European IE languages spreading from there.

    They also seem to propose a spread of Tocharian and the eastern PIE languages directly from Anatolia, not from the steppe.

    As to the first half of their proposal, I wonder if perhaps they've found a lot of R1b in or south of the Caucasus that is like Yamnaya R1b but predates it. That would take care of the CHG in Yamnaya and Catacomb without all the stealing wives business. If that's what leads them to this, then Krause really does have a loose mouth. (Didn't he leak something before?)

    As to the second half, I have to think about it some more. How does R1a Z93/94 fit into all of this? No wonder Eurogenes was going on trying to discredit Gramkelidze and Ivanov. He must have gotten wind of it, and was trying to do a pre-emptive strike. Maybe the Reich Lab might want to move up the publication date of their paper.
    I have to say this: first, the idea that the Anatolian languages were the first branch of PIE to separate (or, conversely, that you have an ancestral split between Proto-Anatolian and a form of "Late" PIE) is a common ground between Kurganists and Anatolianists. I have also mentioned before, I'm not opposed to some hybrid model, because the above allows for some variability, because if we say the secondary home was indeed in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, we can reconcile this with the linguistic evidence. The problem I have with Krause's model is the following: first, with the IE branches of the east, the Indo-Iranic and Tocharian languages are both clearly descendants of "Late" PIE. You have common terminologies for "horse" and "wheel" that Indo-Iranic and Tocharian share with the 'western' IE languages.

    Second, if I interpret the map right (I actually hope I don't), they're essentially saying that the Celtic languages arrived in Western Europe in 7500 YBP. Good luck with that, because Celtic languages too are clearly derived from "Late" PIE.

    Third, another problem is, and this is critical to ask, where was the Proto-Anatolian homeland?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    What is about Sintashta? There is NOTHING special about Sintashta. Sintashta was way to young to be proto-anything. It is not really an interesting culture to be studied. They were just a mixed race of native Steppe aboriginals and the incoming Iranians from the Iranian Plateau.
    there is a lot about Sintashta
    it is a herding society in refuge settlements during a drought period on the steppe, and tribes fighting very hard to defend their refuge
    it is an important development of bronze metalurgy
    it is the home of chariots and chariot warfare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post

    Btw, this map





    is very similar to this map of the Armenian Model of Ivanov:

    no, it isn't, the connection through the Caucasus is essential in the first map

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The problem I have with Krause's model is the following: first, with the IE branches of the east, the Indo-Iranic and Tocharian languages are both clearly descendants of "Late" PIE. You have common terminologies for "horse" and "wheel" that Indo-Iranic and Tocharian share with the 'western' IE languages.
    Once again this is not a really a strong and valid argument. Some 'common' universal words could also be 'loan' words. Everybody is using the word 'Sushi' . But that doesn't mean that Japanese and Europeans share the same common roots."Sushi" is now a universal world. Everybody is now using it. From Africa to Georgia etc.The same was with the words like wheel and horse etc..

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there is a lot about Sintashta
    it is a herding society in refuge settlements during a drought period on the steppe, and tribes fighting very hard to defend their refuge
    it is an important development of bronze metalurgy
    it is the home of chariots and chariot warfare
    Don't know much about the first point.

    Bronze metallurgy was born in West Asia.

    Chariots were known in West Asia too, even at the times of the Sumerians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    There is a lot R1a-Z93 and huge amounts of the Iranian Plateau (Aryan) DNA in the areas where the Tocharians lived. In those areas of the ancient Tocharians there are no 'European' haplogroups. Central Asia is mostly J2a and R1a-Z93.


    R1a-Z93 can't be from Europe. That's impossible since all ancient ancestros have been found on the Iranian Plateau.
    you're confusing origin with destination
    we all know IE were ousted from the Pontic steppe by Turkic and Hunnic tribes
    and many migrated to Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post


    "
    Origin of hg R1a

    To infer the geographic origin of hg R1a-M420, we identified populations harboring at least one of the two most basal haplogroups and possessing high haplogroup diversity.
    Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in our data set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2*(xM417/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus. Owing to the prevalence of basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a.
    "

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf

    "
    Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/pdf/ejhg201450a.pdf
    I agree for R1a* which was 10.000 years before IE expansion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Don't know much about the first point.

    Bronze metallurgy was born in West Asia.

    Chariots were known in West Asia too, even at the times of the Sumerians
    do you know the difference between chariots and carts ?

    anyway, I'm not inclined to discuss all this in very detail
    it is better to await the final publication

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Once again this is not a really a strong and valide argument. Some 'common' words could also be 'loan' words. Everybody is using the word 'Sushi' . But that doesn't mean that Japanese and European share the same common roots.

    "Sushi" is now a universal world. Everybody is now using it. From Africa to Georgia etc.

    The same was with words like wheel and horse etc..
    I for one think it is a very strong argument, because the words for 'horse' and 'wheel' are shifted according to the respective sound laws. If they were spread later, after (Late) PIE had already split up into the daughter branches, you would expect to see a clear sign of borrowing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    do you know the difference between chariots and carts ?

    anyway, I'm not inclined to discuss all this in very detail
    it is better to await the final publication
    It’s all about the concept and conceptualization. When people know how to use carts it is not a big jump to use chariots. So, carts & chariots were invented at the same time. And we all know that Sumerians at least were familiar with carts. Sumerians predate any Steppe culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    It’s all about the concept and conceptualization. When people know how to use carts it is not a big jump to use chariots. So, carts & chariots were invented at the same time. And we all know that Sumerians at least were familiar with carts. Sumerians predate any Steppe culture.
    Mesopotamia, to my knowledge, didn't have wheels before the Uruk period. I might add that the Sumerian word for 'wheel', ḫu-bu-um, bears no relationship with the Indo-European words for wheel (*kwekwelos and *(H)rotheH)).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I for one think it is a very strong argument, because the words for 'horse' and 'wheel' are shifted according to the respective sound laws. If they were spread later, after (Late) PIE had already split up into the daughter branches, you would expect to see a clear sign of borrowing.
    No, it is a very WEAK argument. It proves NOTHING. Only thin air. The only valid point is that it is a very ancient 'loan' word. It's not from yesterday or something. It is actually thousands of years old.

    I'm sure that the universal word 'Sushi' will also continue to develop in all different languages in accordance to sound laws. I'm sure that people from al kind of places will change the word 'Sushi' in accordance to own sound laws overtime.


    You can't prove a theory on 2 words. This is bull. You need much more than that. Once again those words are ancient loan words, like 'Sushi' is a modern common word of today.

  25. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
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    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    you're confusing origin with destination
    we all know IE were ousted from the Pontic steppe by Turkic and Hunnic tribes
    and many migrated to Iran
    Huh? I can't follow you. And BEFORE the Turks and Huns, Central Asia and South Central Asia was populated by native aboriginal Steppe people mixed with Iranians. We have got auDNA evidence for that. There is ancient Iranian DNA in ancient Central Asian samples. That's a fact!

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