Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 35 of 35

Thread: French "aujourd'hui" (today), a redundant expression?

  1. #26
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    I think you do a mistake here, Amegnun.
    in french ancient 'oc' in itself did not become /yi/(/i/) - only in the group 'ok-t' it evolved like this (/okt/-> /oXt/ -> /ot/ -> /ojt/ -> /yi(t)/
    but /yi/ can come from other groups where a /o/ or /u/ followed by some consonnant (fading out later), which was itself followed by a short /i/ or /e/; except in the 'okt' case it is not the /k/ which evolves into /i/ but a subsequent front vowel like /i/ or frontal /e/: let's compare Lat. 'lcor' -> Fr. 'lueur' opposed to 'lucere' -> 'luire' - 'puteus' -> 'puits'

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    hrvclv's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-03-17
    Location
    Auvergne, France
    Posts
    400
    Points
    8,589
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,589, Level: 27
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152-DF103
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1bm

    Ethnic group
    Arvern
    Country: France



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Moesan : I agree with you. In its early stage, French "erased" a number of intervocalic Latin consonants. Think of those adjectives which went their own way before they were later "re-created" by Renaissance and post-Renaissance scholars : Lat. "gracilis" : Fr. "grêle", then reconstructed as "gracile". Lat. "fragilis" : Fr. "frêle", then "fragile".

    @Amegnun : You are right, "hodie" descended from an earlier "hoc die". But I very much doubt that by the time the word "hodie" (as such) arrived in Gaulish territory, any Roman remembered that distant etymology. So the "c+d" chain of consonants can hardly be relied on to explain the later changes.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

  3. #28
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    @Moesan : I agree with you. In its early stage, French "erased" a number of intervocalic Latin consonants. Think of those adjectives which went their own way before they were later "re-created" by Renaissance and post-Renaissance scholars : Lat. "gracilis" : Fr. "grêle", then reconstructed as "gracile". Lat. "fragilis" : Fr. "frêle", then "fragile".

    @Amegnun : You are right, "hodie" descended from an earlier "hoc die". But I very much doubt that by the time the word "hodie" (as such) arrived in Gaulish territory, any Roman remembered that distant etymology. So the "c+d" chain of consonants can hardly be relied on to explain the later changes.
    good answer - but Amegnun even ignored this 'c+d' chain since he affirms 'hui' comes directly from 'hoc' and nothing else.

  4. #29
    Junior Member Achievements:
    31 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-08-18
    Posts
    8
    Points
    238
    Level
    2
    Points: 238, Level: 2
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 12
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Riffian
    Country: France



    Moesan thank you for your comments. If I understand correctly your demonstration (is it your hypothesis or that of latinists ?), you state : uCe > ue > ɥi. I am not convinced by this hypothesis, because it does not satisfy the reductionism principle.

    It would need to explain why 'e' became 'i' (e is it a closed vowel or a central vowel ?).

    Moreover, it seems we can apply this hypothesis for some words like écuyer < scutarius, lui < illi, tuile < tegula.

    At first, I thought it would be more easy to explain this evolution by a palatalisation phenomenon known in French (caballus > cheval), where 'k' would become 'j' in front of 'u', without to need to add a sequence combining 't' (as ok > oil > oui).

    However, Hrvclv, we can exclude that hui would become from hodie, because it seems there is another word which has the same chain : ennuyer < inodiare.

    The problem here is there are so many rules in order to demonstrate how ɥi would derive from Latin, but it is unreasonable.

    Now, the only manner to explain that by one rule is to propose an epenthesis phenomenon or diphthongization in relation with syllabic rules and accentuation : u > y > ɥi (as in Italian : buono < bonus, in Spanish : bueno < bonus).

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered500 Experience Points
    Alcuin's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-17
    Posts
    79
    Points
    268
    Level
    3
    Points: 268, Level: 3
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 82
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    +; one thousand of Germanic words in common usage? I doubt!!!
    I wouls say between two and three hundred... a,d it depends on what we think by 'common'
    I'm pretty sure the notoriously anti-English Academie themselves claimed 5% of French vocabulary comes from English (including older borrowings such as nord, ouest, est, sud, bébé, etc), so Germanic influence in general has to be reasonably high... Surely?

  6. #31
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,703
    Points
    25,513
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,513, Level: 48
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 37
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by amegnun View Post
    Moesan thank you for your comments. If I understand correctly your demonstration (is it your hypothesis or that of latinists ?), you state : uCe > ue > ɥi. I am not convinced by this hypothesis, because it does not satisfy the reductionism principle.

    It would need to explain why 'e' became 'i' (e is it a closed vowel or a central vowel ?).

    Moreover, it seems we can apply this hypothesis for some words like écuyer < scutarius, lui < illi, tuile < tegula.

    At first, I thought it would be more easy to explain this evolution by a palatalisation phenomenon known in French (caballus > cheval), where 'k' would become 'j' in front of 'u', without to need to add a sequence combining 't' (as ok > oil > oui).

    However, Hrvclv, we can exclude that hui would become from hodie, because it seems there is another word which has the same chain : ennuyer < inodiare.

    The problem here is there are so many rules in order to demonstrate how ɥi would derive from Latin, but it is unreasonable.

    Now, the only manner to explain that by one rule is to propose an epenthesis phenomenon or diphthongization in relation with syllabic rules and accentuation : u > y > ɥ i (as in Italian : buono < bonus, in Spanish : bueno < bonus).
    Considering how early French deleted intervocalic /d/ after its lenition (probably into a "thee" sound), and how numerous and profound the other phonetic changes of French were, I can envisage "hui" coming from "hodie" roughly this way, which sounds pretty plausible: hodie > odie > odhie > oíe, oyíe > oí > uí > üí (sorry I cannot type the right symbol for the semivowel here).

  7. #32
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by amegnun View Post
    Moesan thank you for your comments. If I understand correctly your demonstration (is it your hypothesis or that of latinists ?), you state : uCe > ue > ɥi. I am not convinced by this hypothesis, because it does not satisfy the reductionism principle.

    It would need to explain why 'e' became 'i' (e is it a closed vowel or a central vowel ?).


    Moreover, it seems we can apply this hypothesis for some words like écuyer < scutarius, lui < illi, tuile < tegula.

    At first, I thought it would be more easy to explain this evolution by a palatalisation phenomenon known in French (caballus > cheval), where 'k' would become 'j' in front of 'u', without to need to add a sequence combining 't' (as ok > oil > oui).

    However, Hrvclv, we can exclude that hui would become from hodie, because it seems there is another word which has the same chain : ennuyer < inodiare.

    The problem here is there are so many rules in order to demonstrate how ɥi would derive from Latin, but it is unreasonable.

    Now, the only manner to explain that by one rule is to propose an epenthesis phenomenon or diphthongization in relation with syllabic rules and accentuation : u > y > ɥi (as in Italian : buono < bonus, in Spanish : bueno < bonus).
    diphtongs are unstable sounds and vary very much between dialects; some common results in French have very different stories!
    I have not phonetic signs at hand just now, so here /e/ is written /é/ (French), /j/ is written /y/(French, English only the semi-vowel), frontal /y/ written /ü/...
    palatalisation in 'cabal' >> 'cheval' is an independant phenomenon: even today, some Oïl (Parisian) tendancy exists to prononce /k/ as /ky/ before central 'a'; it explains the chain (figurated signs, not IPA) ka>> k'a>> kya>> tcha >> sha (shë) ('ë' = atone 'e') -
    'buono', 'bueno' (some Spanish northern dialects have had 'uo' or 'uö', before opening of the diphtong (by stress) to 'ue' /wé/: it's an opening diphtong with no link to palatalisation.
    in 'hodie' , yes, the 'e' is the close frontal vowe /é/l, already close enough to 'i' - but I think the 'i' was accentuated (stressed), so the subsequent 'e' fallen down. All the way, 'ui' in 'nuit' has an other history than the 'ui' in 'hui'!!!
    + 'u' never diphtonged into 'ui' in French ! It never diphtonged at all nor did 'i' - it's 'o' and 'e' which did.
    the stressed latin suffixe '-arius', if I don't mistake, gave a chain (proxi!) >> -ari >> air >> -ér >> -ié(r) >> -yé (not in all dialects of Oïl: you can find '-é' in place of '-yé', '-i' too: so I think 'scutarius' >> '(è)sküdary >> èskü(dh)air >> é(h)küé(r) >> éküié(r) >> éküi (if epenthesis, it occurs here only because of the opening diphtong , nothing to do with the preceding ü << u
    - 'tuile' from 'tegula' seems to me an inversion : te(gh)ülë >> teülë >> tiül(ë) >> tiül >> tüil (cf breton 'teol' not #'toel'= "teals", a loan from latin)

    if I find time I' ll see old books: today I found this, in accord with me: Étymologie[modifier le wikicode]

    (1333) Du latin tegula (« tuile »), de tegere, « couvrir ». (Vers 1290) tieulle (Vers 1170) tiule.



  8. #33
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    #32 (mine):
    the chains of evolution I gave are proxi's; the order of modif of sounds is not guarranted, it gives only an direction...

  9. #34
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
    I'm pretty sure the notoriously anti-English Academie themselves claimed 5% of French vocabulary comes from English (including older borrowings such as nord, ouest, est, sud, bébé, etc), so Germanic influence in general has to be reasonably high... Surely?
    I spoke of "common use"; if you search in Old French you 'll find more words of Germanic origin. BTW English words will become desner

  10. #35
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
    I'm pretty sure the notoriously anti-English Academie themselves claimed 5% of French vocabulary comes from English (including older borrowings such as nord, ouest, est, sud, bébé, etc), so Germanic influence in general has to be reasonably high... Surely?
    I spoke of "common use"; if you search in Old French you 'll find more words of Germanic origin. BTW English words will become denser and denser in French by time for evident reasons ("suivisme") when old Germanic words will disappear slowly, I think. But Englsih words are not all of them of Germanic origin: French loaned train, manager, coach, cart, English words of French origin if I don't mistake.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •