Migration from the Steppe to Anatolia was 6000-5000 ybp (4000-3000 BC)

[bicicleur 2]

We know that the farmers in Europe picked up an additional 8-10% WHG almost immediately. This would have been long after that, when MN farmers show an additional 10 to 15% on top of that. I'm sure Tomenable could provide the figures if he were being honest.

No, we don't have samples from the Balkans for that period that have been analyzed in this way, so it's possible they didn't have anything additional. That's why I said that it's possible that the Anatolian languages moved to Anatolia in this way.

Another thing to consider is the archaeology, however. We've discussed this on this board before. There is no archaeological trail down through the Balkans to Anatolia to support Anthony's hypothesis. I combed his book to see if he outlines it and he doesn't. At the time I raised it no one could point to anything. If someone can provide it that would change matters.

Ed. What date are the Sopot samples? We've got "E" and "J2" there, and it's later. They're pretty far north and west, but have they been analyzed? Don't we also have one Tripolye sample? Why hasn't someone gotten those genomes?

what is 8 - 10 % additional ?

there probably was WHG in Anatolia too, where the Villabrunans may have originated

they couldn't have picked it up in the Balkans, as there is only one single mesolithic finding in the whole Balkans, and that is in the Varna area
during mesolithic, the Balkans (south of the Danube) were pretty deserted, except some coastal areas

there were HG in the Carpathian Basin though, and also some in Greece
but looking at Greek mtDNA , it was probably allready infiltrated by Anatolian HG, it was not WHG

Greek mesolithic

	Greece	Theopetra, Thessaly [Theo5]		7605–7529 BC			K1c	Hofmanová 2015
	Greece	Theopetra, Thessaly [Theo1]		7288–6771 BC			K1c	Hofmanová 2015
	Greece	Revenia [Rev5]	F	6438–6264 BC			X2b	Hofmanová 2015

neolithic

	Greece	Paliambela [Pal7]	F	4452– 4350 BC			J1c1	Hofmanová 2015
	Greece	Kleitos [Klei10]	M	4230-3995 BC	G2a2a1b		K1a2	Hofmanová 2015

do we have a Tripolye sample? please let me know

what archeological link is there with the Kumtepe newcomers?
we discussed it in another thread
I then suspected an expansion from old Europe, similar to Remedello
was there some consensus in that thread ?
as far as I recall it was rather clueless, which certainly will make some conclude that they came from the Iranian plateau

 

[Olympus Mons]

I keep on doing these reality checks:
a. 4900 BC – the Apogee of a huge dispersal of a large population (Shulaveri). This population had come (as per cattle/goats DNA) from Anatolia, INTO the land of Kotias and Satsurblia (CHG) 1.200 years earlier. Let’s not forget that CHG has EHG and WHg components.
b. 4800 BC – Start to showup settlements in the Kuban river that looked like this population fleeing moving near the Eastern shores of black sea. Kuban river moves into steppe, passing through Maykop. Some moved also into steppe probably by Caspian western shores into Kalmikya.
c. 4800 BC Kumtepe A (so Kumetepe6) settlement appears. This people push to much to CHG for Anatolians. Too freaking much. So, to me were Shulaveri. Unfortunaly is low resolution but we might be looking to the first Shulaveri shomu genome.
d. This means that whoever came to dislodge them came from the East following the Zagros mountain either form Northwestern Iran or north Iraq.


So, when you talk about populations a 1000 years later… dudes, this Shulaveri component can show up in Yamnaya or wherever you choose… Remember! --- Why does Johannes Krause a director from Max Planck just made a presentation that shows 4900 bc as the date CHG enters the steppe? And also show its movement to Anatolia?

 

[Alan]

what is 8 - 10 % additional ?

there probably was WHG in Anatolia too, where the Villabrunans may have originated

they couldn't have picked it up in the Balkans, as there is only one single mesolithic finding in the whole Balkans, and that is in the Varna area
during mesolithic, the Balkans were pretty deserted

there were HG in the Carpathian Basin though, and also some in Greece
but looking at Greek mtDNA , it was probably allready infiltrated by Anatolian HG, it was not WHG

Greek mesolithic

	Greece	Theopetra, Thessaly [Theo5]		7605–7529 BC			K1c	Hofmanová 2015
	Greece	Theopetra, Thessaly [Theo1]		7288–6771 BC			K1c	Hofmanová 2015
	Greece	Revenia [Rev5]	F	6438–6264 BC			X2b	Hofmanová 2015

neolithic

	Greece	Paliambela [Pal7]	F	4452– 4350 BC			J1c1	Hofmanová 2015
	Greece	Kleitos [Klei10]	M	4230-3995 BC	G2a2a1b		K1a2	Hofmanová 2015

do we have a Tripolye sample? please let me know

The "WHG " in Anatolia is not real "WHG" but ancestral component to WHG that merged with Basal EUrasians. Anatolian_Neo itself is ~50% WHG like.

What Angela means is real WHG admixture that happened in Europe. That is 5-10%

 

[Angela]

She must be his new girlfriend. She's fine, I must say.

Goodness gracious. Sile gave a thumbs down for my admiring comment on Tomenable's new avatar. Maybe he thinks African women can't be attractive. How Nordicist of him.

Or perhaps he objects to me thinking that she's his girlfriend. Well, I have to think that; otherwise I'd be forced to think he's making some sort of racist allusion. We wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions.

 

[Angela]

The "WHG " in Anatolia is not real "WHG" but ancestral component to WHG that merged with Basal EUrasians. Anatolian_Neo itself is ~50% WHG like.

What Angela means is real WHG admixture that happened in Europe. That is 5-10%

As Alan said, this is all established.

Near Eastern farmers who went to Europe picked up local WHG admixture in Europe shortly after they arrived. As Alan said, 5-10%. We've known this for, what, two years?

By the Middle Neolithic they had picked up an additional 10-15%.

Now, if the MN farmers in the Balkans were like the farmer samples we have from nearby in Central Europe, then how could people coming from the Ukraine establish a culture in the Balkans and then go all through the Balkans to Anatolia and not show WHG/SHG in a calculator based on ancient genomes which has a component for it?

Of course, if someone shows me a clear archaeological trail from the Balkans to Anatolia, and proof that the Balkan farmers had no WHG, then my doubts that Kumteppe was the result of a steppe migration via the Balkans will be resolved.

It just occurred to me... Weren't the Italian populations one of the closest to Kumeppe? That would make them/us much more "Indo-European" than has previously been proposed. What a kick in the teeth that would be...

@Bicicleur,

It's one Tripolye mtdna. The authors suggest perhaps there was movement from the Near East. Certain internet bloggers have no problem getting the autosomal dna of some ancient rather incomplete samples, but never, it seems, the ones that might upset their theories. Ah well, maybe I'm just too used to looking for conspiracies.

It's discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...polyte-ancient-mtDna?highlight=Tripolye+mtdna



As I said we also have those Sopot/Lengyel samples with "E" and "J2". What are they like autosomally. Might they also have increased "CHG" coming from Anatolia?

 

[Olympus Mons]

Goodness gracious. Sile gave a thumbs down for my admiring comment on Tomenable's new avatar. Maybe he thinks African women can't be attractive. How Nordicist of him.

Or perhaps he objects to me thinking that she's his girlfriend. Well, I have to think that; otherwise I'd be forced to think he's making some sort of racist allusion. We wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions.

Nope. That level of beauty does not elicit racism even from a KKK member.

 

[bicicleur 2]

As Alan said, this is all established.

Near Eastern farmers who went to Europe picked up local WHG admixture in Europe shortly after they arrived. As Alan said, 5-10%. We've known this for, what, two years?

By the Middle Neolithic they had picked up an additional 10-15%.

Now, if the MN farmers in the Balkans were like the farmer samples we have from nearby in Central Europe, then how could people coming from the Ukraine establish a culture in the Balkans and then go all through the Balkans to Anatolia and not show WHG/SHG in a calculator based on ancient genomes which has a component for it?

Of course, if someone shows me a clear archaeological trail from the Balkans to Anatolia, and proof that the Balkan farmers had no WHG, then my doubts that Kumteppe was the result of a steppe migration via the Balkans will be resolved.

It just occurred to me... Weren't the Italian populations one of the closest to Kumeppe? That would make them/us much more "Indo-European" than has previously been proposed. What a kick in the teeth that would be...

@Bicicleur,

It's one Tripolye mtdna. The authors suggest perhaps there was movement from the Near East. Certain internet bloggers have no problem getting the autosomal dna of some ancient rather incomplete samples, but never, it seems, the ones that might upset their theories. Ah well, maybe I'm just too used to looking for conspiracies.

It's discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...polyte-ancient-mtDna?highlight=Tripolye+mtdna



As I said we also have those Sopot/Lengyel samples with "E" and "J2". What are they like autosomally. Might they also have increased "CHG" coming from Anatolia?

where did they catch that exta WHG ? in the Balkans or in the Carpathian Basin ?
did the cardial ware neolithic also pick this up ?

afaik we have Starcevo and LBK DNA but no EN Balkan DNA, neither EN Greek DNA

and your big if seems to confirm that

I repeat :

they couldn't have picked it up in the Balkans, as there is only one single mesolithic finding in the whole Balkans, and that is in the Varna area
during mesolithic, the Balkans were pretty deserted

there were HG in the Carpathian Basin though, and also some in Greece
but looking at Greek mtDNA , it was probably allready infiltrated by Anatolian HG, it was not WHG

Starcevo culture were isolated settlements ; unlike LBK and early Greek, Starcevo farmers didn't just live from farming, but also from hunting and fishing, I suppose they were more open for contact with local HG

the origin of Central Europe MN is also Carpathian Basin : Sopot and Lengyel, allthough TRB may have had inputs from elsewhere too

anyway I have to update my records
the Tripolye mt-DNA are not included yet

I don't claim this is proof, but it makes sense to me

And I don't know if you noticed :

Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe = bronze age

Kum6 is from another period = copper age

Turkey

Kumtepe [Kum6]

6,700 BP

H2a

Omrak 2016

 

[Maciamo]

You forgot (ignoring on purpose??) only a very small detail, the MAYKOP CULTURE! Maykop Culture predate Yamnaya and it has been proven that Yamnaya was influenced by the Maykop Culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

Maykop only predates Yamna by 200 years. Steppe migrations started from 4200 BCE, 500 years before Maykop.

 

[Tomenable]

See pages 8-9 and map from Fig. 2:

http://www.jolr.ru/files/(104)jlr2013-9(1-21).pdf

They surely did not expand into Central Anatolia immediately after that.

But Kumtepe is located near the Dardanelles, very close to the Balkans:

 

[bicicleur 2]

Tomenable,

I have these 2 :

	Turkey	Kumtepe [Kum6]		6,700 BP			H2a	Omrak 2016
Chalcolithic	Turkey	Barcın Höyük [I1584 / M10-111]	F	3943-3708 calBCE (5016±31 BP)			K1a17	Lazaridis 2016

where does Kum4 come from?

 

[Tomenable]

Tomenable,

I have these 2 :

	Turkey	Kumtepe [Kum6]		6,700 BP			H2a	Omrak 2016
Chalcolithic	Turkey	Barcın Höyük [I1584 / M10-111]	F	3943-3708 calBCE (5016±31 BP)			K1a17	Lazaridis 2016

where does Kum4 come from?

Kum4 sample was published in two publications so far:

1) Omrak et al. 2016 - http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)01516-X

2) Hofmanová et al. 2016 - http://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886.full

Graph from Hofmanová - yellow is Yamnaya admixture, look at Kumtepe4 and 6:

 

[LeBrok]

Davidski explained that Yamnaya had no any Iran Neo or Iran CHL admixture.

They only had admixture similar to Mesolithic Kotias and Paleolithic Satsurblia.

That's crazy and can't be true.

 

[Tomenable]

That's crazy and can't be true.

It can be true but the problem is: we don't have these samples yet.

I mean, we have Mesolithic Kotias but we don't have Neolithic descendants of Kotias.

We need samples from Neolithic descendants of Kotias to verify this.

Obviously IranNeo were related to, but not descended from, Satsurblia and Kotias.

Where did people descended from Satsurblia-Kotias live during the Neolithic period?

 

[Goga]

GOGA, are you talking about "my" Shulaveri shomu?

Don't know much about Shulaveri, but I meant Bronze Age Armenians.

 

[Goga]

Maykop only predates Yamna by 200 years. Steppe migrations started from 4200 BCE, 500 years before Maykop.

Interesting. Never heard of pre-Yamnaya migration from the Steppes into the Balkans. If that was the case, then those folks were NOT Indo-European speakers at all, since Indo-European language was brought into Europe by Yamnaya Horizon folks. And those folks were linguistically, culturally & geneticcally influenced by the Maykop Culture, between 6000-5000 ybp (4000-3000 BC).

The scientists do agree with each other that before Yamnaya Culture, people in the Steppes spoke a different non-IE Steppes language. It was Yamnaya that was the FIRST proto-Indo-European language of the Steppes.



PS. 'Kumtepe' is not Anatolia at all, but it is actually part of the ancient Greece/ Balkans, 'Marmara'. Has nothing to do with the 'Eastern' Anatolia. That 'Kumtepe' person is a Pontic Greek/Balkanic. Has nothing to do with the Maykop that Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Culture and the 'Eastern' Anatolian (Armenian) R1b-something.

 

[Angela]

Kum4 sample was published in two publications so far:

1) Omrak et al. 2016 - http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)01516-X

2) Hofmanová et al. 2016 - http://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886.full

Graph from Hofmanová - yellow is Yamnaya admixture, look at Kumtepe4 and 6:

Did you really try to understand that graphic before you posted it? Kostenki 14 is all yellow. He was all Yamnaya thousands of years before that admixture existed? Can you be any more absurd? The best definition for that "yellow" is combined EHG/CHG. "Yamnaya" is that plus a bit of "farmer" blue and "Whg" orange.

Oh, and as for your map, anyone can draw an arrow. It takes more than that to draw a connection between culture X and culture Y.

What that graphic shows is the progressive movement of Caucasus populations into the more southern and western Near East.

I was saying for about four years that the "CHG" component was in Otzi and other European farmers before the steppe people arrived, and I was right...again.

As for Iran Neolithic, Lazaridis never said they were the best fit for the "southern" admixture into the steppe. He said it was a population "related to" or "like" Iran Chalcolithic. Stop creating strawman arguments.

 

[Goga]

Interesting. Never heard of pre-Yamnaya migration from the Steppes into the Balkans. If that was the case, then those folks were NOT Indo-European speakers at all, since Indo-European language was brought into Europe by Yamnaya Horizon folks. And those folks were linguistically, culturally & geneticcally influenced by the Maykop Culture.

The scientists do agree with each other that before Yamnaya Culture, people in the Steppes spoke a different non-IE Steppes language. It was Yamnaya that was the FIRST proto-Indo-European language of the Steppes.



PS. 'Kumtepe' is not Anatolia at all, but it is actually part of the ancient Greece/ Balkans, 'Marmara'. Has nothing to do with the 'Eastern' Anatolia.

'Kumtepe' is NOT Anatolia. So there was no migration from the Steppe into Anatolia between 6000-5000 ybp (4000-3000 BC). By Anatolia I mean homeland of the Armenians. 'Kuntepe' was historic homeland of the Greeks, before the Turks arrived..


But there was a migration from Anatolia into the Steppes between 4000-3000 BC. Maykop is at least from 3700BC. And that is at least 5700 years ago. And it is precisely between 6000-5500 ybp. The age when second stage late PIE of the Yamnaya Horizon was born.

 

[Goga]

here is 'Anatolia':

Armenians are from Eastern Anatolia. And the Armenian PIE Model of Ivanov is actually modelled between Eastern Anatolia and Iran. And NOT Marmara where 'Kumtepe' is from.


That 'Kumtepe' person is actually a 'GREEK' and not an 'Armenian' at all. Has NOTHING to do with the Eastern Anatolian R1b-something

 

[Olympus Mons]

Guys, Guys (and girl)...
Kumtepe6 woman (4800bc) is Shulaveri-Shomu (kicked out from Kotias land 4900bc) with H2 mtdna and always found a bit awkward by decoders because it shifted too much to CHG for a late neolithic in western anatolia. Also that woman shared ancestry with a 1000bc F38 a R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 just north of lake Urmia…so Caucasus as well anyways. Actually just near the other R1b (although X L23) from 4000bc.

Just need to sample a bit more. Those kuban river settlements opening the gates to steppe land, arising at the same time (4800bc) as Kumtepe are also the same Anatolia_N loaded up with CHG from kotias land. Probably why Joahanne Krause now makes a map with that migration by 4900 bc. By around 4500bc they were as far away as Samara. Remember… cereals from south Caucasus totally fail I north Caucasus. So, keep on running.

I just figure it out when I read about Kumtepe I(a) (so Kum6) so the founders of Kumtepe and saw the assemblage… oh yes. My shulaveri.
http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147895.pdf


Large amount of people kicked out… they had to show up somewhere…
Yamnaya and steppe… my a*s.

 

[Goga]

Satsurblia CHG (Gedmatch kit M677694):

1) In Eurasia K14:

Population
N_Amerindian	-
Afansievo_Yamnaya	32.79
Kalash	14.25
Siberian	-
S_Amerindian	-
Sub_Saharan	-
SE_Asian	-
E_African	-
SW_Asian	24.67
Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers	11.47
SHG_WHG	-
Early_European_Farmers	6.74
S_Indian	10.07
Papuan	-

2) In Dodecad K12b:

Population
Gedrosia	39.88
Siberian	-
Northwest_African	-
Southeast_Asian	-
Atlantic_Med	-
North_European	9.84
South_Asian	0.54
East_African	-
Southwest_Asian	-
East_Asian	-
Caucasus	47.91
Sub_Saharan	1.83

Kotias CHG (Gedmatch kit M551062):

1) In Eurasia K14:

Population
N_Amerindian	-
Afansievo_Yamnaya	23.87
Kalash	19.06
Siberian	1.20
S_Amerindian	-
Sub_Saharan	2.41
SE_Asian	-
E_African	0.63
SW_Asian	22.69
Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers	-
SHG_WHG	-
Early_European_Farmers	18.85
S_Indian	11.28
Papuan	-

2) In Dodecad K12b:

Population
Gedrosia	34.94
Siberian	0.98
Northwest_African	-
Southeast_Asian	-
Atlantic_Med	-
North_European	9.76
South_Asian	1.17
East_African	-
Southwest_Asian	-
East_Asian	-
Caucasus	47.18
Sub_Saharan	5.95

Iran Neolithic (Gedmatch kit M967114):

...
Iran Late Neolithic (Gedmatch kit M937770):

...


As you can see CHG scores not only more Yamnaya than IranNeo, but it also scores North European.

IranNeo scores no North Europe at all in DodecadK12b, so it did not contribute to modern Europeans.

What it means is that "CHG-like" admixture in Yamnaya was not from IranNeo, but rather from CHG.

Exactly as Davidski wrote on his blog some time ago.

Today such amounts of "North Euro" admixture are found only in populations living to the north of Caucasus.

MAYKOP was a NORTH Caucasian Culture! Northern part of it is 'Russian Federation' now. Afansievo_Yamnaya auDNA is a MIXED auDNA and it is YOUNGER than Maykop auDNA. Huge part of Afansievo_Yamnaya auDNA is from Maykop Culture.

Satsurblia & Kotias (and even 'Kumtepe') CAN'T have Afansievo_Yamnaya admixture because they are older and pre-date Yamnaya admixture by thousands of years.


As you can see from Dodecad K12b Satsurblia & Kotias are mostly Caucaso-Gedrosia folks. That MINOR North_European admixture in them is from a gene flow from the north (Russia). Those Caucasian CHGs were DIRECT neighbors of the Steppes folks, of course they would have some minor gene flow from those people, since in the past there were no borders. 'Borders' are a modern human artificial invention.