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Thread: Migration from the Steppe to Anatolia was 6000-5000 ybp (4000-3000 BC)

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    Armenia Chalcolithic can be modeled as having a percentage of Samara Eneolithic, which is pretty specific. Perhaps it was female mediated, a mirror of what could have been happening north of the Caucasus. Then it doesn't show up in Armenia EBA. It shows up again in the MB. If that's wrong someone correct the record.

    Is there modeling showing the same thing for Kum4? If not, then on what is all this speculation based? That, if only the sample were better, it would? That's a belief, a hunch, which may or may not be right, but it's not evidence.

    If the modeling was done, it would be helpful if someone could reproduce it here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    IMO it is not advantageous to try and model populations by means of EHG ancestry, because EHG expanded into eastern Europe during paleo - or early mesolithic times but they didn't expand much further afterwards.
    I don't think Yamnaya is a consequence of EHG expansion, but maybe there is a component in Yamnaya which is also ancestral to EHG.
    It is also possible that both EHG and Yamnaya have some common CHG ancestry.

    Maybe a specific part of the EHG population contributed to the CW and Sintashta ancestry though.
    Fair enough, I mostly agree. But there are a lot of circular arguments about the EHG component floating around. Hence people obsessively looking for EHG 'ancestry', because they thought it was an reliable indicator of Indo-European languages.

    Btw, even Konzintsev, formerly one of the foremost advocates of the "Indo-European = European, blond, blue eyes" hypothesis in Russia, just published an article in which he says that PIE is basically Near Eastern: https://kunstkamera.academia.edu/AlexanderKozintsev

    Progress has been made.

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    He's placing the origin of Proto-Indo-European in the Near East, thus making Hittite and the "Anatolian" languages "autochthonous". However, after that it appears to be the standard spread from the steppe.

    Krause seems to agree as to the origin, and the spread of the European IE languages from the steppe so far as I can tell, but it's unclear to me what he and Haak mean as to Indo-Iranian and Indo-Aryan. Until we do know it isn't helpful for people to be setting up straw man arguments all over the place.

    "The earliest stage of Indo-European history:Evidence of linguistics, paleogenetics, and archaeology
    Two scenarios explaining the early separation of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European (IE) language family (5th
    millennium BC, according to S.A. Starostin) are examined. The Balkan scenario is used by advocates of the steppe and Central European theories of IE homeland. The former theory is supported and the latter refuted by genetic data. The steppe theory identifies ancestral Anatolians with Suvorovo people, who migrated from the northwestern Black Sea area to the Balkans. But judging by archaeological indicators (shell-tempered pottery of Cucuteni C type, cord decoration,zoomorphous scepters, elements of the steppe burial rite), IE groups moved toward the Balkans gradually and enteredAnatolia no earlier than 3000 BC, when people of southeastern Europe used wheeled transport. The Hittite language, on theother hand, lacked two words denoting the wheel (or wagon) in other IE languages, implying that Anatolians had beenisolated from other Indo-Europeans since the 5th millennium BC. The Balkan scenario, which excludes a single rapid migration, does not account for that. Therefore, an alternative must be considered—the Caucasian scenario, assuming anearly presence of proto-Indo-Europeans in the Near East. This scenario can explain the long isolation of Anatolians. Apparently, a Near Eastern IE group migrated to northeastern Caucasus in the 5th millennium BC. Its presence there is documented by high-quality Near Eastern type ware in the lower strata of the pre-Maikop fortress Meshoko. Later, the southern tradition was displaced by two others. One was marked by pottery decorated with punched nodes and possibly manufactured by speakers of a North Caucasian language. The other was a steppe tradition, probably associated with Skely aculture (akin to Suvorovo) and evidenced by ceramic forms and shell temper resembling Cucuteni C at Svobodnoe andMeshoko, cruciform mace-heads at Meshoko, and fragment of zoomorphous scepter at Yasenovaya Polyana. Being the most active part of the steppe population, the Skelya people may have adopted an IE language from the Near Eastern immigrants. This steppe IE dialect gave rise to all IE languages except the Anatolian branch, which, under this scenario, was autochthonous in the Near East. The hypothesis is upheld by a Caucasian autosomal component in the gene pool of theKhvalynsk and Yamnaya people. Southerly migrations of filial IE groups ancestral to Greeks, Armenians, etc., along theBalkan route occurred after the emergence of the steppe IE language."

    If there is no evidence of the "Yamnaya y lineages" south of the Caucasus at the appropriate time then are we supposed to believe the language was transferred by the women?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    As to 'EHG', I think the misunderstanding comes from the presupposition that the hunters from Oleni Ostrov constitute an isolated population. To illustrate this, take a look at what happens in Lazaridis' analysis:

    Attachment 8132

    Source: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311 (fig. 4)

    The 11,000-12,000 years old Hotu III individual from Northern Iran already carries a significant portion of the ancestral component commonly associated with the hunters from North-Western Russia. This affinity is unlikely to be the result of an earlier migration to the south since the Hotu cave remains predate Oleni Ostrov by thousands of years.

    On the contrary, there is a very high probability that the common source of this affinity is the Paleolithic Zarzian complex centered in the Middle East, responsible for introducing the bow and the domesticated dog from Africa to Eurasia. This is exactly what Semenov & Bulat predicted earlier this year, citing Underhill (2014) on the phylogenetic & geographic structure of Y-DNA R1a. In sum:



    On the far-flung archaeological affinities of Oleni Ostrov:



    Source: http://ejournal8.com/journals_n/1461227205.pdf

    They speculate that a group of Zarzian migrants managed to impose themselves on the North-Eastern European Swiderian cultures, resulting in both the Oleni Ostrov culture and what they call the 'Elshanskaya' complex (which includes Samara).

    I guess all we can tentatively conclude is that there was an as yet unidentified population from Iran or thereabouts, which influenced large parts of the Middle East and Eastern Europe, likely due to innovations adopted from Africa. Of course, this means that we should be cautious about interpreting affinity to the Eastern Hunter Gatherers as North-Eastern European ancestry.
    Thank you very much. This is another academic paper which supports the Iranian origin of R1a1! I'm also going to save this paper in my library.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Btw, even Konzintsev, formerly one of the foremost advocates of the "Indo-European = European, blond, blue eyes" hypothesis in Russia, just published an article in which he says that PIE is basically Near Eastern: https://kunstkamera.academia.edu/AlexanderKozintsev

    Progress has been made.
    No matter how much people try to find some excuses and how much they live in their own alternative dream world. NOBODY can change the reality. It is what it is. Science and DNA don't lie. In the past sick twisted degenarated people with inferiority complex & hidden agenda could foul other by trying to change history. But today we live in the 21st century. Scientists can trace migrations and therefore look into the past and dig into history. GENETICA changed everything. Nowadays it has become more difficult to spread lies and propaganda. REAL history can't be changed and more and more people are starting to accept this reality.

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    do you have a link to this quote of Krause ?

    he says this is the weak point of the Balkan theory
    The Balkan scenario, which excludes a single rapid migration, does not account for that.
    But if a group of simple cattle herders split from the IE in the Balkans, would that have been detectable in specific pottery, scepters or burials?

    Does he say the Maikop people were North Caucasian, not Near Eastern?
    Would the Skelya adopt the language but not the traditions nor the artefacts of the pre-Maikop Meshoko?
    What link can be made between these pre-Maikop Meshoko and Hittites/Luwians?

    A lot remains to be explained.

    What I've always wondered about the Balkan theory is why Maikop didn't have a bigger impact on the steppe people.

    This is Maikop/Novosobnaya

    Maikop and Novosvobodnaya Russia Klady
    3600-3000 BC

    U8, T2 and N1 Nedoluzhko 2015
    Novosvobodnaya Russia Klady
    3500 BC

    V7 Nedoluzhko 2014



    This is Khvalynsk

    Samara Eneolithic Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0122/SVP 35] M 4700-4000 BC R1b1 M415 H2a1 Mathieson 2015
    Samara Eneolithic Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0433/SVP 46] M 4700-4000 BC R1a1 M459 U5a1i Mathieson 2015
    Samara Eneolithic Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0434/SVP 47] M 4700-4000 BC Q1a F2676 U4a2 or U4d Mathieson 2015
    I'm curious about the autosomal component.

    Autosomal CHG may have entered the steppe way before the 5th mill BC, as evidenced by the presence of J in Karelia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No matter how much people try to find some excuses and how much they live in their own alternative dream world. NOBODY can change the reality. It is what it is. Science and DNA don't lie. In the past sick twisted degenarated people with inferiority complex & hidden agenda could foul other by trying to change history. But today we live in the 21st century. Scientists can trace migrations and therefore look into the past and dig into history. GENETICA changed everything. Nowadays it has become more difficult to spread lies and propaganda. REAL history can't be changed and more and more people are starting to accept this reality.
    This is true. I wish people would stop pushing their personal agendas and let the science talk.
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Does he say the Maikop people were North Caucasian, not Near Eastern?
    Maykop = North Caucasus.

    But North Caucasians are actually Near Eastern (Iranian Plateau) in origin with some extra EHG ancestry from the Steppes. Didn't you hear about the Uruk migration from Irani into the Caucasus? If you compare Iranian Leyla-Tepe (original Uruk?) with Maykop culture you will find huge similarities. Maykop was basically Middle Eastern / NorthWest ASIAN in nature. The thing is that Maykop was a little bit shifted toward the Steppes, because of some EHG geneflow from the neighboring Steppes


    CHG admixture is a West ASIAN admixture.

    Yamnaya was Indo-Europized by R1b West Asians from the Armenian/Iranian Plateau. Second stage PIE Yamnaya folks were actually for a HUGE part West Asian in their DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    If there is no evidence of the "Yamnaya y lineages" south of the Caucasus at the appropriate time then are we supposed to believe the language was transferred by the women?
    Right, still no common R1b-mutation less than 5600 years old between aDNA from Caucasus and Western Europe, meaning that the common ancestors between the Steppe and Western populations, if they existed, were around or older than 6000 years, this destroys the 4000 years old Steppe massive migration westward by male at least.
    And the horse ? the wheel? etc the Bronze age riders who shaped the modern world were also women?

    Nevertheless, I note that even if we don't have at all any R1b-L51 in the aDNA of Steppe population but only in the Western , we still have an Mt-DNA mutation (mutation I3a) present both in UNETICE Western aDNA (I0117, I0114,,BZH18) and Yamnaya Culture (I0440) , then these individual must have a common female ancestors. I think may be the male IE L51 who lived 4000 years ago were killed or fled Westward and the Steppe invaders kept the women. The male lines were completly replaced but not the female lines, this could fit the data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Right, still no common R1b-mutation less than 5600 years old between aDNA from Caucasus and Western Europe, meaning that the common ancestors between the Steppe and Western populations, if they existed, were around or older than 6000 years, this destroys the 4000 years old Steppe massive migration westward by male at least.
    And the horse ? the wheel? etc the Bronze age riders who shaped the modern world were also women?

    Nevertheless, I note that even if we don't have at all any R1b-L51 in the aDNA of Steppe population but only in the Western , we still have an Mt-DNA mutation (mutation I3a) present both in UNETICE Western aDNA (I0117, I0114,,BZH18) and Yamnaya Culture (I0440) , then these individual must have a common female ancestors. I think may be the male IE L51 who lived 4000 years ago were killed or fled Westward and the Steppe invaders kept the women. The male lines were completly replaced but not the female lines, this could fit the data.
    Yamna was R1b.
    By Sintashta R1b was replaced by R1a on the steppe. Prior to that R1a herders were probably Indo-Europeanized in the forest-steppe zone.
    R1a was replaced by Hunnic and Turkic tribes on the steppe.

    The most likely origin for R1b-L51 is the steppe.

    It is the normal process. The males are ousted, enslaved or killed. The enslaved finally get killed too.
    Only a few women slaves are worth keeping and breeding with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Yamna was R1b.
    By Sintashta R1b was replaced by R1a on the steppe. Prior to that R1a herders were probably Indo-Europeanized in the forest-steppe zone.
    R1a was replaced by Hunnic and Turkic tribes on the steppe.

    The most likely origin for R1b-L51 is the steppe.

    It is the normal process. The males are ousted, enslaved or killed. The enslaved finally get killed too.
    Only a few women slaves are worth keeping and breeding with.
    For a while we have aDNA only from eastern part of Yamnaya culture. I guess folks from western part of Yamnaya culture were predominntly bearers of R1a haplos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    For a while we have aDNA only from eastern part of Yamnaya culture. I guess folks from western part of Yamnaya culture were predominntly bearers of R1a haplos.
    It sounds counter-intuitive. Wouldn't we expect R1b to predominate in the westernmost steppe, where they left for Western Europe? Perhaps R1a was rare until the Corded Ware migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    It sounds counter-intuitive. Wouldn't we expect R1b to predominate in the westernmost steppe, where they left for Western Europe? Perhaps R1a was rare until the Corded Ware migrations.
    Nope. It would be more reasonable to expect R1a folks in western part of Yamnaya since we have a lot of R1a in CWC. R1b folks did not migrate to Central and Western Europe from Pontic steppe but R1a surely did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    It sounds counter-intuitive. Wouldn't we expect R1b to predominate in the westernmost steppe, where they left for Western Europe? Perhaps R1a was rare until the Corded Ware migrations.
    R1b is not found in perceptible percentages there nowadays and no ancient samples from there are provided. It's a matter of faith so. Moreover when reliying in archaeology there are no Yamnayan migration registered to CW and such phantom migration would provide there R1a. You may now perceive the flawness of the steppe theory.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    R1b is not found in perceptible percentages there nowadays and no ancient samples from there are provided. It's a matter of faith so. Moreover when reliying in archaeology there are no Yamnayan migration registered to CW and such phantom migration would provide there R1a. You may now perceive the flawness of the steppe theory.
    Specific parts of the steppe theory of the "Indo-European" languages may be tweaked in the future, but I don't know of any reputable scholar who denies that many of the European "Indo-European" languages reached Europe from the steppe along with a migration of people. Krause and Haak don't seem to deny it, and neither do Renfrew or even Ivanova, for that matter.

    The only changes will have to do with the earliest stage of proto-Indo-European, perhaps the direction from which Greek arrived, and the exact migration path to India, nothing more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Specific parts of the steppe theory of the "Indo-European" languages may be tweaked in the future, but I don't know of any reputable scholar who denies that many of the European "Indo-European" languages reached Europe from the steppe along with a migration of people. Krause and Haak don't seem to deny it, and neither do Renfrew or even Ivanova, for that matter.

    The only changes will have to do with the earliest stage of proto-Indo-European, perhaps the direction from which Greek arrived, and the exact migration path to India, nothing more.
    I know what are thinking the mainstream academics with that issue, and even I addered such theory thinking that the experts in that were doing a good job as it is to be expected (and chariots helped for such belief), but after receiving several slaps from the ancient DNA results, and reviewing again the IE fauna and flora, the steppes now seem to me a dry source, just again, like an evil spell, mainstream Humanistics theories turn to be 100% flawed and mistaken. Of course I don't think I have special aptitudes to unmask mud theories, the problem is that I'm usualy so free (as demanded by science) that sometimes I question the queen bee; of course a bad bussiness with so many worker bees buzzing everywhere around (not you). Well, let's see if my logics are yet working fine or if archaeology / linguistics fit better for those living in Wonderland, it's just a question of time to know the answer.

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    concerning Y R1a R1b the problem is consideable changes certainly occurred between 3000 and our era in Eurasia, so we cannot rely only on densities of today, as everybody knows.
    CWC R1a could have stayed at first rather in northern lands compared to southern Pontic steppes (CWC were on the mergins concerning metals and seemed copying pops more evolved technically on the matter; the most typical CWC people physically speaking were in N-E Germany, not in Austria nor in the southern Ukraina; I have no ready to use stable theory to date but I think we have to search for R1b somewhere in eastern-southeastern Europe at some stage of History, come there from Anatolia or southern Pontic Steppes (rather this late case); it's what the comparisons of R1b SNPs distribution seems telling me. I previously gave my bet to an eastern Caspian origin, today I doubt; except some apparently rare deadend R1b in LN Iberia, the Central Europe R1b as in Vatya seem arrived from East Carpathians; could have R1b been already present among late Tripolye??? We know Eastern-Central European demic input appeared later in the farther eastern Steppes (so many moves on every direction) what doesn't discard Iranian cultural input too. Yamnaya in CWC is a shared auDNA (so frmalesplayed their role here), and this can occur also if R1a and some of the R1b tribes had rovered long times in Steppes, without the patriarchal clans of Yamnaya would have played a role among CWC; all the way R1b Yamna is kind of "lost" clade. Catacomb could have played an heavier role in IE spread into East steppes according to Kozintsev.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Specific parts of the steppe theory of the "Indo-European" languages may be tweaked in the future, but I don't know of any reputable scholar who denies that many of the European "Indo-European" languages reached Europe from the steppe along with a migration of people. Krause and Haak don't seem to deny it, and neither do Renfrew or even Ivanova, for that matter.
    As I see it, the reason Corded Ware and its eastern predecessors are so firmly on the Indo-European horizon is because they contributed a lot of ancestry to present day Europeans. The possibility of Indo-European languages spreading without major gene flow as in the case of Tyrsenian languages is never taken into account for the obvious reasons.

    In the latter case there could be no credible attempt to discern between a spread in the Pontic steppe, a naval route across the Black Sea or even the Mediterranean and the West Asian route over the Bosporus.
    Last edited by MarkoZ; 28-10-16 at 13:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    R1b folks did not migrate to Central and Western Europe from Pontic steppe but R1a surely did.
    I had a rapid look to the R1a migration trails, that fits little bit better to the massive migration from the Steppes 4800-3000 years ago mentioned by J. Krause but i's not the case with R1b migration history.
    All R1a mutations found specificaly in Western Europe like R1a-L664 (age around 4500 y) appeared after the supposed steppes migration starting 4800 years ago. This is compatible but as I said before it's not the case of the R1b-L51 mutation, found only in Western Europe aDNA, which is around 6000 years old much before the steppes migration.
    Last edited by Voyager; 31-10-16 at 19:50.

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    Just to be clear: when I speak or the females role in CWC, I don't insist on their moves to Western Europe but on the autosomes shared by CWC (male OR female) and Yamna people: Steppes origin, whatever the Y lineages! but "steppe" here doesn't signify "IE" at the date of sharing: it could have been before IE Chalco/BA but maybe also after;

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    As I see it, the reason Corded Ware and its eastern predecessors are so firmly on the Indo-European horizon is because they contributed a lot of ancestry to present day Europeans. The possibility of Indo-European languages spreading without major gene flow as in the case of Tyrsenian languages is never taken into account for the obvious reasons.

    In the latter case there could be no credible attempt to discern between a spread in the Pontic steppe, a naval route across the Black Sea or even the Mediterranean and the West Asian route over the Bosporus.

    I deliberately didn't address the issue of the size of the migration when I carefully said:

    "I don't know of any reputable scholar who denies that many of the European "Indo-European" languages reached Europe from the steppe along with a migration of people. "

    I've been on record for a long time as believing that we have very unreliable data as to population levels in Europe prior to the "arrival" of the "Indo-Europeans". Also, while we have a trail of kurgans leading into Europe from the steppe I've never seen any reliable analysis of how many people from the steppe they might actually represent. It's also important to realize that the trail abruptly stops approximately in the middle of the Hungarian plain. Nor has anyone explained to me how there could have been such massive growth in population levels in the steppe, which the terrain and the subsistence strategies wouldn't warrant, in my opinion. It's only when you get to populations such as Corded Ware, who were not on the steppe, and did practice farming as well as herding that you could get that kind of population growth.

    It has seemed to me for a long time that a lot of the movement into Europe was actually of "Indo-Europeanized" forest steppe and forest people, some of them carrying a lot of WHG. That's why I think the "Yamnaya" numbers in certain groups may be inflated, not to mention later population movements that might have inflated such numbers, as in the case of the Finns.

    That doesn't change the fact that the Balto-Slavic languages, and perhaps Germanic, can be traced to the steppe, and Celtic and Italic as well.

    Whether the "homeland" of proto-Indo-European languages is actually in the Armenian highlands, but then moved to the steppe at least for the "European" languages, leaving the "Anatolian" languages like Hittite behind is another issue entirely. I think that's definitely a possibility, if not a probability. From what I can tell, even the terrain, as well as the flora and fauna, doesn't disqualify it, and we definitely have a movement of the "CHG" component from south to north.

    @Moesan,
    There is definitely R1b of the right variety in southeastern Europe, i.e. Z2103, which we find in eastern Yamnaya. The problem is that there's very little L11+ and the little that exists can be explained by historical era migrations. That leads to the most vexing problem, which is where were the L11+ people hiding. If we ever get some genomes from the western steppe that might provide us with some answers. Also, once the Balkan farmer paper is published, and if they tested samples up to and including Tripolye, then we'll know if they might have absorbed some R1b there. Or, we may discover that the L11+ people actually took a more northern route.

    People who think all of this is settled are mistaken, imo.

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    So I see this thread and I think "Oh man I need to read this right away. How did I miss it?" Then, literally, the first post I jump to is Moesan talking about his small penis and alcoholism. Lol.

    I'll continue reading and no doubt have something to say.

    @Moesan I struggle with booze too. Keep fighting. And there's nothing you can do about your penis. Dont dwell on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Maykop = North Caucasus.

    But North Caucasians are actually Near Eastern (Iranian Plateau) in origin with some extra EHG ancestry from the Steppes. Didn't you hear about the Uruk migration from Irani into the Caucasus? If you compare Iranian Leyla-Tepe (original Uruk?) with Maykop culture you will find huge similarities. Maykop was basically Middle Eastern / NorthWest ASIAN in nature. The thing is that Maykop was a little bit shifted toward the Steppes, because of some EHG geneflow from the neighboring Steppes


    CHG admixture is a West ASIAN admixture.

    Yamnaya was Indo-Europized by R1b West Asians from the Armenian/Iranian Plateau. Second stage PIE Yamnaya folks were actually for a HUGE part West Asian in their DNA.
    A question:
    Wiki says Uruk was a certain cultural development of lower Mesopotamia and not a typical Iranian or Armenian phenomenon, spite influences over all around; by the way close cultures of same nature can influence one another without too big changes in pop. Have you more data proving it found birth in Iran region more specifically? Just to complete my poor knowledge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I ... and we definitely have a movement of the "CHG" component from south to north.
    Yes. And when and who were the people that migrated north and took that CHG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ...southeastern Europe, i.e. Z2103, which we find in eastern Yamnaya.
    Yes,but those we have archeological traces and path...and none for the other. right?

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