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Thread: Migration from the Steppe to Anatolia was 6000-5000 ybp (4000-3000 BC)

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    Migration from the Steppe to Anatolia was 6000-5000 ybp (4000-3000 BC)

    Here are some aDNA samples from Asia Minor on Gedmach:

    Age in years Period/culture Gedmatch kit Sample ID
    ~8635 Neolithic Z145547 Tep002
    ~8350 Neolithic M411713 I1583
    ~8350 Neolithic M754279 I0746
    ~8350 Neolithic M936428 I0709
    ~8350 Neolithic M897077 I0707
    ~5826 Copper Age M091434 I1584
    ~5150 Early Bronze M300627 Kum4

    I've tested those ancient Anatolian samples with this calculator:

    GedrosiaDNA - Eurasia K14 Neolithic:

    https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/St...n_Anatolia.png



    Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe

    Around 3700 BC [~5700 years ago] new settlers came to Kumtepe. The people of this new culture, Kumtepe B, built relatively large houses with multiple rooms, sometimes a porch. They also practiced animal husbandry and agriculture. The main domestic animals were goats and sheep, bred not only for meat but for milk and wool as well. They knew lead and bronze along with copper. Shortly after 3000 BC Yassıtepe and Hisarlık (Troy) were colonized probably from Kumtepe.

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    One Neolithic sample - I0746 - actually scored 2,5% Yamnaya-Afanasievo, but I added it to "other".

    All the remaining four Neolithic samples scored zero (-) of Yamnaya-Afanasievo, exactly as expected.

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    Steppe Migration to Armenia took place no later than ~6150 ybp (4150 BC)

    In GedrosiaDNA Eurasia K14 Neolithic, this sample scores almost 1/5 Yamnaya:

    Gedmatch kit M926386 - sample I1631 (Areni-1, Copper Age Armenia):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_cave_complex

    The Areni-1 cave complex (Armenian: Արենիի քարանձավ) is a cave in the Areni village of southern Armenia along the Arpa River. In 2010, it was announced that the earliest known shoe was found in the cave.[1] In January 2011, the earliest known winery in the world was announced to have been found.[2] Also in 2011, the discovery of a straw skirt dating to 3900 BC was reported.[3]*

    [*straw skirts were also found in Bronze Age Europe and in Xiaohe cemetery in Xinjiang]
    Kit M926386

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 25.32
    2 Early_European_Farmers 19.11
    3 Afanasievo_Yamnaya 19.02
    4 SW_Asian 18.81
    5 Kalash 14.23
    6 SHG_WHG 2.11
    7 S_Amerindian 1.41

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Armenian_BA2 25.1
    2 Hungarian_BA5 26.46
    3 Armenian_IA 27.23
    4 Hungarian_BA3 29.36
    5 RISE_baSca 30.02
    6 Bell_Beaker_LN5 30.13
    7 HungaryGamba_BA2 31.17
    8 Corded_Ware_BA4 31.53
    9 Armenian_BA3 31.53
    10 Hungarian_BA7 31.55
    11 Corded_Ware_BA3 31.66
    12 Hungarian_BA1 31.7
    13 Bell_Beaker_LN1 31.7
    14 HungaryGamba_BA1 32.83
    15 Bell_Beaker_LN2 32.98
    16 Benzigerode_LN1 33.07
    17 HungaryGamba_IA 33.15
    18 Unetice_BA2 33.96
    19 Bell_Beaker_BA1 34.01
    20 Karasuk_BA5 34.62

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 67.2% Armenian_BA2 + 32.8% HungaryGamba_EN2 @ 5.47
    2 66.5% Armenian_BA2 + 33.5% HungaryGamba_EN1 @ 5.62
    3 51.5% Armenian_BA2 + 48.5% Hungarian_BA5 @ 7.92
    4 74.1% Armenian_BA2 + 25.9% Baalberge_MN3 @ 8.07
    5 74% Armenian_BA2 + 26% HungaryGamba_CA @ 8.1
    6 75.6% Armenian_BA2 + 24.4% Baalberge_MN2 @ 8.25
    7 72.6% Armenian_BA2 + 27.4% Baalberge_MN1 @ 8.51
    8 76.5% Armenian_BA2 + 23.5% Remedello_BA @ 8.6
    9 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% Starcevo_EN @ 8.66
    10 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% HungaryGamba_EN @ 8.66
    11 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% Iceman @ 8.66
    12 76.9% Armenian_BA2 + 23.1% LBK_EN @ 8.66
    13 75.7% Armenian_BA2 + 24.3% Montenegro_BA1 @ 8.67
    14 59.3% Armenian_BA2 + 40.7% Stuttgart @ 8.78
    15 73.6% Armenian_BA2 + 26.4% HungaryGamba_EN7 @ 8.97
    16 66.7% Armenian_BA2 + 33.3% HungaryGamba_EN8 @ 8.98
    17 62.9% Hungarian_BA5 + 37.1% Armenian_BA4 @ 9.55
    18 70.4% Hungarian_BA5 + 29.6% Afansievo_BA1 @ 10.21
    19 65.1% Armenian_BA2 + 34.9% LBK_EN2 @ 10.31
    20 56.7% Armenian_BA2 + 43.3% Corded_Ware_BA3 @ 10.33

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    That is shared ancestry, there is no way that Steppe ancestry reached Anatolia and the highland so early. I bet even CHG will score some Steppe "ancestry".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    there is no way that Steppe ancestry reached Anatolia and the highland so early.
    No way, because... ???

    We have new, milk-drinking settlers in Kumtepe circa 3700 BC (based on archaeology).

    If not the Steppe, then please propose some alternative place of their ultimate origin.

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    Copper Age Barcin I1584 has around 10% of "Kalash" admixture (apart from Yamnaya-Afanasievo).

    I counted it as part of "other" in that table.

    =======================

    This is how they score in Dodecad K12b:

    Orange = admixtures correlating with transition to Copper Age
    Red = admixtures correlating with transition to Bronze Age

    https://s18.postimg.org/gg1f727ix/Dodecad_K12b.png

    I1584 = Copper Age Anatolia (Barcin sample)
    Kum4 = Early Bronze Age Anatolia (Kumtepe)

    I1631 = Areni-1 cave (Copper Age Armenia)
    I1658 = Early Bronze Armenia (Kura-Araxes)
    I1635 = Early Bronze Armenia (Kura-Araxes)


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I bet even CHG will score some Steppe "ancestry".
    You mean Kotias and Satsurblia ??? Yes they do.

    But they are very old - Paleolithic / Mesolithic - so in this case we know that it is shared ancestry.

    By the way Kotias and Satsurblia score more "Steppe" than Iran Neolithic and Iran Late Neolithic.

    So probably Kotias is a better than Iran Neolithic proxy for CHG admixture in Yamnaya.

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    But neither Kotias, nor Satsurblia, nor Iran Neo/Late Neo score as much Yamnaya as Kum4.

    Kum4 scores over 50% and those CHG / Iran Neolithic samples score 20-30%.

    And in Dodecad K12b, Iran Neolithic does not score any "North Europe", while Areni-1 does.

    So I think that this is rather genuine Yamnaya admixture, not just shared ancestry.

    I1290 + I1671 = Neolithic Iran. They don't score any "NorthEurope", unlike Armenian I1631:

    https://s12.postimg.org/bubd9k7e5/Iran_Dodecad_K12b.png


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    Afaik, the Kum4 sample is a low coverage genome that belongs to a woman from the Kumtepe settlement. This is hardly indicative of the larger population trend.

    It's also quite misleading to call this 'steppe' affinity. My guess is that we'll see this kind of affinity wherever the Villabruna and the Mal'ta clusters coalesce, which surely happened in more than one place.
    Last edited by MarkoZ; 16-10-16 at 10:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    No way, because... ???

    We have new, milk-drinking settlers in Kumtepe circa 3700 BC (based on archaeology).

    If not the Steppe, then please propose some alternative place of their ultimate origin.
    milk drinking settlers came obviously from the Iranian Plateau since herding evolved there. we don't need the Steppes for this. Also the Kumptepe sample looks obviously CHG_Iran_Neo mixed and this is what the people propose for it's origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Afaik, the Kum4 sampe is a low coverage genome of that belongs to a woman from the Kumtepe settlement. This is hardly indicative of the larger population trend.

    It's also quite misleading to call this 'steppe' affinity. My guess is that we'll see this kind of affinity wherever the Villabruna and the Mal'ta clusters coalesce, which surely happened in more than one place.
    Sure my wording was not well fitting but I meant what you said, the "Steppe" ancestry showing here is just affinity, affinity created via DNA that is found in both the Steppe and this Anatolian samples (either ANE or VIllabruna like DNA).

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Very interesting initiative. Thanks for sharing. I had proposed that the Anatolian branch of IE languages left the Pontic Steppe before the start of the Yamna period (3500 BCE), and were probably part of the very first incursions to the Balkans from 4200 BCE. That would place their entrance into Anatolia around 4000 BCE, which is exactly what you data says.

    What's interesting is that the Steppe admixture (Gedrosia + North Europe) shows up around 4000 BCE both in western Anatolia (I1584) and Armenia (I1631). That would mean that the first PIE migrations left the Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk cultures (two precursors of Yamna) both into the Balkans (well documented incursions from 4200 BCE) and directly across the Caucasus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    One Neolithic sample - I0746 - actually scored 2,5% Yamnaya-Afanasievo, but I added it to "other".

    All the remaining four Neolithic samples scored zero (-) of Yamnaya-Afanasievo, exactly as expected.
    That 2.5% of Yamna could be due to intermingling with the original R1b tribes of cattle herders from the South Caucasus/West Iran region, before they crossed the Caucasus to the Steppe. Or it could just be noise since the K12b result doesn't show any Gedrosia (nor North European obviously).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Copper Age Barcin I1584 has around 10% of "Kalash" admixture (apart from Yamnaya-Afanasievo).
    If I am not mistaken, the J2b sample from PP Neolithic Iran (AH2) scored extremely high on Kalash admixture. This could mean that the Kalash are essentially derived from those Neolithic Iranian farmers.

    I think that some of those J2b also crossed the Caucasus to settle in the Volga region in the Neolithic, explaining why J2b is common in the Volga region today, but is also found among upper-caste Indians, and at low frequencies a bit everywhere in Europe. That would also explain the small amount of Kalash-like admixture among Europeans, which was absent before the Bronze Age.

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    That would fit with kurgan theory nicely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    milk drinking settlers came obviously from the Iranian Plateau since herding evolved there.
    Impossible, because admixture percentages do not add up / do not match.

    Neolithic Iranians had either 0% or much lower % of North Europe / Steppe than Kumtepe B and Areni-1 peoples.

    since herding evolved there.
    It doesn't matter. Herding was already known in the Steppe before 4150 BC.

    So they could come from the Steppe as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Afaik, the Kum4 sample is a low coverage genome (...)
    Being low coverage doesn't necessarily mean that admixture proportions are totally wrong.

    And remember that already I1584 from Barcin shows some 16% of Yamnaya admixture.

    Compared to ~0% of Yamnaya admixture in Neolithic Anatolian samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    It's also quite misleading to call this 'steppe' affinity.
    Do you believe in Krause's Dead Cat Bounce?:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/1...at-bounce.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_bounce

    With no Steppe IE migration into South Asia?:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/1...lustrated.html








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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Very interesting initiative. Thanks for sharing. I had proposed that the Anatolian branch of IE languages left the Pontic Steppe before the start of the Yamna period (3500 BCE), and were probably part of the very first incursions to the Balkans from 4200 BCE. That would place their entrance into Anatolia around 4000 BCE, which is exactly what you data says.

    What's interesting is that the Steppe admixture (Gedrosia + North Europe) shows up around 4000 BCE both in western Anatolia (I1584) and Armenia (I1631). That would mean that the first PIE migrations left the Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk cultures (two precursors of Yamna) both into the Balkans (well documented incursions from 4200 BCE) and directly across the Caucasus.



    That 2.5% of Yamna could be due to intermingling with the original R1b tribes of cattle herders from the South Caucasus/West Iran region, before they crossed the Caucasus to the Steppe. Or it could just be noise since the K12b result doesn't show any Gedrosia (nor North European obviously).
    You forgot (ignoring on purpose??) only a very small detail, the MAYKOP CULTURE! Maykop Culture predate Yamnaya and it has been proven that Yamnaya was influenced by the Maykop Culture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

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    It has been said that before the gene flow from Iran & Kurdistan native people of Armenia were as 'white' as Celts. Later Semites (Assyrians) and later Iranians (Aryans, Kurds/Persians) dominated Armenians and Armenians became darker in skin tone..
    Last edited by Goga; 16-10-16 at 15:17.

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    IF it is true that there is Steppe auDNA of that ancient age in Anatolia, then it could be something to do with the Maykop Culture. West Asian Maykop folks already had direct 'contact' with the Steppes folks who became later part of the Yamnaya Culture.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Do you believe in Krause's Dead Cat Bounce?
    No.

    By the way, is Eurogenes 'Polako'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    No way, because... ???

    We have new, milk-drinking settlers in Kumtepe circa 3700 BC (based on archaeology).

    If not the Steppe, then please propose some alternative place of their ultimate origin.
    Tomenable....you do notice the madness of talking about a population that lived 5,000 years before as showing(or not showing) Yamnaya ancestry... right?

    Secondly, if there is something we learned in 2016 is that diferent people living 300km from eachother (caucasus/iran) were as genetic diferentiated as a german and a chinese today. Also that a region as anatolia that above all others everybody thought was homogenous was after all very genetic heterogenous.

    So, statistics is great. really great...but lets not torture it that much!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    It has been said that before the gene flow from Iran & Kurdistan native people of Armenia were as 'white' as Celts. Later Iranians (Aryans, Kurds/Persians) dominated Armenians and Armenians became darker in skin tone
    GOGA, are you talking about "my" Shulaveri shomu?

    Anyways, 5000bc saw in south caucasus the earliest big human dispersal that I know of. people moving from either North Iran or south Kurdinstan moved and made havoc. Until we have Dna from whoever lived between 8000bc and 5000bc in the overall region, we are missing a big chunk.

    Thirdly...does anyone know why johannes Krause wrote on the slide 4900bc as the movement of peopel from south caucasus to the steppe (why not a round number like 5000)? --Anyone who know me knows how important I claim 4900bc was in south caucasus. Mentesh Tepe fell....

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    And still johannes Krause. The guy has hundreds upon hundreds of adna samples that they might have sequence at Max Planck but not published yet. he made a slide like that one changing is view in less than a year... does that not tell you that he knows what we dont know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Here are some aDNA samples from Asia Minor on Gedmach:

    Age in years Period/culture Gedmatch kit Sample ID
    ~8635 Neolithic Z145547 Tep002
    ~8350 Neolithic M411713 I1583
    ~8350 Neolithic M754279 I0746
    ~8350 Neolithic M936428 I0709
    ~8350 Neolithic M897077 I0707
    ~5826 Copper Age M091434 I1584
    ~5150 Early Bronze M300627 Kum4

    I've tested those ancient Anatolian samples with this calculator:

    GedrosiaDNA - Eurasia K14 Neolithic:

    https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/St...n_Anatolia.png



    Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe
    It seems to confirm the hypothesis of David Anthony for the Anatolian branch as a consaquence of IE intrusion from the steppe into the Balkans 4200 - 4000 BC.
    So the 3700 BC new settlers in Kumtepe would be Anatolian IE. Troy would also be founded by yhem. It makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    It seems to confirm the hypothesis of David Anthony for the Anatolian branch as a consaquence of IE intrusion from the steppe into the Balkans 4200 - 4000 BC.
    So the 3700 BC new settlers in Kumtepe would be Anatolian IE. Troy would also be founded by yhem. It makes sense.
    What is that Joahanne krause knows that we dont?
    Is it fair to say that if a guy living in the midst of large hundreds of samples not yet published draws the slide he did... lets take it seriously? picking from that what can be infered? - Not this narrative here put forward right?

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