E1b1b is black?

[kmak]

Every people is black. black is not race but represent african(mostly south and central) ancestry more recently.

[Ygorcs]

It is very likely that the E tribes spread in west
And south africa
They reduced the number of the paleo-african haplogroups : A and B
Today we see them in pockets ������

Why do you think so? The fact E split from D, found virtually exclusively in Eurasia, and some basal E1b1b and E1b1a are found in small frequencies in East Africa, I always thought an origin in East Africa or at the furthest South-East Africa was more likely.

[Ygorcs]

That's very interesting. Do ANA form a clade with either SSA or Eurasians(Basal or otherwise)? You have a link to the anthropological data? Were the Iberomasurians ANA+West Eurasian then? Interesting that that's not how I would describe North Africans at all.

IIRC the best model of Iberomaurusians done by Lazaridis et all. in the Dzudzuana Cave paper indicated that ANA split from most SSA (I assume apart from Mbuti-related and Khoisan-related peoples, of course) after the non-African split, but before the further splits of the African part of humankind that remained in the continent. So, it was closer to SSA, but not by much.

Modern North Africans have only a minority of Iberomaurusian-related admixture: very little in Egypt and Libya, and generally ~15-35% in the Maghreb (those who have the most of it are some Moroccan Berbers, like those of Tiznit, and the Saharawi). Maghrebis also have a lot of Anatolian Neolithic Farmer (ANF) like Europeans as well as smaller bits of Natufian-related, CHG/Iran_N and SSA ancestry.

[Progon]

IIRC the best model of Iberomaurusians done by Lazaridis et all. in the Dzudzuana Cave paper indicated that ANA split from most SSA (I assume apart from Mbuti-related and Khoisan-related peoples, of course) after the non-African split, but before the further splits of the African part of humankind that remained in the continent. So, it was closer to SSA, but not by much.

Modern North Africans have only a minority of Iberomaurusian-related admixture: very little in Egypt and Libya, and generally ~15-35% in the Maghreb (those who have the most of it are some Moroccan Berbers, like those of Tiznit, and the Saharawi). Maghrebis also have a lot of Anatolian Neolithic Farmer (ANF) like Europeans as well as smaller bits of Natufian-related, CHG/Iran_N and SSA ancestry.

Ygor, i think you are wrong. This is the tree from Dzudzuana paper, and ANA, Basal Eurasian and Crown Eurasian split from a common ancestor, ANA being the first to split then Basal Eurasian and Crown Eurasian.

[kingjohn]

Why do you think so? The fact E split from D, found virtually exclusively in Eurasia, and some basal E1b1b and E1b1a are found in small frequencies in East Africa, I always thought an origin in East Africa or at the furthest South-East Africa was more likely.

It didn't splitt from D it share
Common ancestor with D
The common ancestor called DE ....

anyway E probably originated in africa
And more specific e1b1b1 probably in the horn of africa ethiopia/somalia

P.s
No one know for sure where...

[ratchet_fan]

IIRC the best model of Iberomaurusians done by Lazaridis et all. in the Dzudzuana Cave paper indicated that ANA split from most SSA (I assume apart from Mbuti-related and Khoisan-related peoples, of course) after the non-African split, but before the further splits of the African part of humankind that remained in the continent. So, it was closer to SSA, but not by much.

Modern North Africans have only a minority of Iberomaurusian-related admixture: very little in Egypt and Libya, and generally ~15-35% in the Maghreb (those who have the most of it are some Moroccan Berbers, like those of Tiznit, and the Saharawi). Maghrebis also have a lot of Anatolian Neolithic Farmer (ANF) like Europeans as well as smaller bits of Natufian-related, CHG/Iran_N and SSA ancestry.

Are Iberomasurians fully ANA?

[ratchet_fan]

Ygor, i think you are wrong. This is the tree from Dzudzuana paper, and ANA, Basal Eurasian and Crown Eurasian split from a common ancestor, ANA being the first to split then Basal Eurasian and Crown Eurasian.

That would make it closer to Eurasians.

[Progon]

That would make it closer to Eurasians.

But they were different. This sample is a Paleolithic/Mesolithic Hunter Gatherer from Egypt. He was quite robust like the Iberomaurusians, so i think his Y-DNA might be E-M35/E-M78 and probably his autosomal hypothetically would be mostly ANA.

[real expert]

The ancestor of E1b1b is E1b1 that very likely came from the Horn of Africa/Ethiopia but it could be very well from North Africa, the Middle east, Arabia. Plus the haplogroup alone doesn‘t tell the whole story about the ethnicity or race. E is a very archaic hp that emerged aorund the time of the Out of Africa migration where the different races were not developed yet. So is futile to pinpoint or attribute the base hp E to any specific region or population/ethnicity.The subclade sometimes correlates with ethnicity, though and therefore give us valuable hints about the ethnicity of certain people/population. Furthermore, the genes of the original carriers of a

certain haplogroup can be diluted or breed out to the point where they disappear from the gene pool of the descendants that still carry the hp. Therefore, you can have technically an Eurasian or African hp while totally lacking the Eurasian or African component. With that being said most carriers of E1b1b are indeed either fully Caucasiod or part Eurasian.

[real expert]

Autosomico changes with the weather.

At first we were all black.

Here‘s the thing even old school anthropologists never determined race by skin color alone, but by the combination of skull shape, facial features, bone structure, hair texture, teeth, etc. It‘s the liberal leftists who claim that race is only skin deep and that pretend that the difference between the races is only the color of the skin and nothing else. Besides, dark skin doesn‘t equal black Africans by default. For instance, Natufians that carrierd the hp E1b1b l were like the WHGs Western Eurasian aka Caucasiods. I don‘t know whether scientists performed the phenotypic analyses on Natufians to predict their skin colour. However, I assume that they lacked the genes for light skin of MODERN Europeans. So it can be concluded that the Natufians like theWHGs were likely dark. How exalty dark the Natufians or WHGs were the scientists can‘t really predict. Keep in mind that a slightly tanned, light brown, yellowish skin tone is compared to the white skin of modern Europeans, already dark skin. We have also to take into account that an archaic population like the Natufians or WHGs could have carried other unknown genes that produce light skin too. By the way, the term "black" or "black people" is a pretty useless term when dealing with genetics.

[real expert]

Good question--it proves that "race," which is a social construct and not a biological one, has no place in science.

Can you please stop with parroting this PC Matra and dogma that "race or gender is a social construct". Race is real. Hence the liberal denial of it has no place in science. The only social construct about race is the claim that it's a social construct. There is a biological structure in humans. Genetically speaking a Yoruba can never be confused for an Australian Aborigine or a Swede for a Chinese or a Pgymy for a Native American. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging the existence of race. Denying race as if it‘s a bad thing is actually the real racism here. We should celebrate diversity by denying it? Is racism only wrong because there is not such a thing as race? Would be racism right and good if race did exist? Racism is wrong not because race isn‘t real, but because hating and dehumanizing other human beings who look different is wrong and immoral. Christianity believes that ALL humans, male or female have a human diginity since they were created in the image of God. Hence this God given dignity shouldn‘t be violated by hatred or dehumanization.

[ratchet_fan]

But they were different. This sample is a Paleolithic/Mesolithic Hunter Gatherer from Egypt. He was quite robust like the Iberomaurusians, so i think his Y-DNA might be E-M35/E-M78 and probably his autosomal hypothetically would be mostly ANA.

I agree. But still closer to Eurasians than Africans. Plus these people were absorbed by Eurasians not Africans anyways.

Also that guy is ridiculously robust. Wow. Impressive.

[Fleurdelys]

Your question is not stupid, I asked the same question myself. For personal reasons, I travel a lot in the Maghreb and I meet them a lot.The average Maghrebi has East Africans features, which would correspond to this population which was E1b1b. I'm not just talking about the color of the skin, but physical features, like the skeleton, musculature, face, etc. They are thin and the arms are built like ethiopians athletic runners, but the chest remain thin, even if they work out a lot. Some Ethiopians also look a lot like Moroccans. I suppose that the Maghrebis are East Africans mixed mainly with other diverse Mediterranean peoples, but who were all similar (phoenicians, greeks, romans, ottomans, spanish, etc.). They would look like a lot like ancient egyptians ethnically (Horners or very ancient Near Easteners who were related to horners E1b1b mixed to more recent mediterraneans J1 and others).

(They obviously don't want to hear about it, because they like to believe that real Berbers are blondes like Germanics, but for me it make no sense).

1/3 of their maternal mtdna is from european women, 1/3 near easterner womens and 1/3 subsaharans. How these women from far regions were introduced in Maghreb is anothers subject of debate.

[kingjohn]

Your question is not stupid, I asked the same question myself. For personal reasons, I travel a lot in the Maghreb and I meet them a lot.The average Maghrebi has East Africans features, which would correspond to this population which was E1b1b. I'm not just talking about the color of the skin, but physical features, like the skeleton, musculature, face, etc. They are thin and the arms are built like ethiopians athletic runners, but the chest remain thin, even if they work out a lot. Some Ethiopians also look a lot like Moroccans. I suppose that the Maghrebis are East Africans mixed mainly with other diverse Mediterranean peoples, but who were all similar (phoenicians, greeks, romans, ottomans, spanish, etc.). They would look like a lot like ancient egyptians ethnically (Horners or very ancient Near Easteners who were related to horners E1b1b mixed to more recent mediterraneans J1 and others).

(They obviously don't want to hear about it, because they like to believe that real Berbers are blondes like Germanics, but for me it make no sense).

1/3 of their maternal mtdna is from european women, 1/3 near easterner womens and 1/3 subsaharans. How these women from far regions were introduced in Maghreb is anothers subject of debate.

where do you see it
in apricity where ?


p.s
our emperor carcalla very likely was e1b1b1

https://www.ancient.eu/image/13003/c...econstruction/

[Fleurdelys]

I don’t know Apricity and I don’t understand the meaning of your post at all.

[Fleurdelys]

The romans are a mixed population, of various origins. The North Africans too. But the origin of E1b1b is most likely East Africa or the Near East, but both are related. Modern Maghrebians still have obvious Horner features, which exist also in others saharans region Africans. Romans not that much.

[real expert]

where do you see it
in apricity where ?


p.s
our emperor carcalla very likely was e1b1b1

https://www.ancient.eu/image/13003/c...econstruction/

Yes very possible. Caracalla was from his father side Punic, thus there is the possibility that he belonged to hp J1, too. Anyway, Voshart is a left-wing moron. He made several Roman emperors much darker than in his original reconstruction and also changed their facial features a bit. North Africans and Middle Easterners criticized him on Twitter for darkening their emperors, and he arrogantly dismissed them. Later he just made lame excuses and referred to artistic license.

[kingjohn]

I don’t know Apricity and I don’t understand the meaning of your post at all.

The point is where did you saw e1b1b1b people
Who claim or think they are blond and germanic.. ...
I am e1b1b1-m84 an i never claim that ....
Neither do most europeans who belong to the european e-v13....
I wonder what do they will think on calling them black....
Our connection to black people majority e1b1a-v38...
Is 40 ky old damn old....
Many water went through the river....


P.s
And the ancestor of most berbers e-m81
is e-L19 that was found in neolithic morroco...
Zidane doesn't look black infact i see cro-magnon feature

[Fleurdelys]

Zidane have some features of the East Africans athletic body that I talked about. He look white, but he have also a little « something ».

Many Europeans carry the E1b1b haplogroup, but lost completely the phenotype of the original tribe, because they married Europeans women for many generations. But North Africans are closer to the origins of E1b1b. In Morocco there is villages where 90% of the men are E1b1b and high E1b1b populations in Maghreb really have a typical look.

[kingjohn]

Zidane have some features of the East Africans athletic body that I talked about. He look white, but he have also a little � something �.
Many Europeans carry the E1b1b haplogroup, but lost completely the phenotype of the original tribe, because they married Europeans women for many generations. But North Africans are closer to the origins of E1b1b. In Morocco there is villages where 90% of the men are E1b1b and high E1b1b populations in Maghreb really have a typical look.

Can you post picture of the typical look
You are talking about ...
I never been in the maghreb

[Fleurdelys]

I would have many examples, but the forum
Forbid me posting links because I’m new here.

Search for example the french-tunisian actor Sami Bouajila. He look very much like the average man of the street in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia.

But we don’t see these browns peoples that much in the tv programs in these countries. If you watch the tv there, everybody seem turkish or italian, and women have blue eyes. (The upper society look like that but it’s not the typical Maghrebian).

[Fleurdelys]

Dahmane El Harrachi, Algerian singer. Search on Google.

[Fleurdelys]

Moroccan, algerian, tunisian rappers on Google image. Usually they come from the poors neighborhood, so they look more average than the actors.

[kingjohn]

I would have many examples, but the forum
Forbid me posting links because I’m new here.
Search for example the french-tunisian actor Sami Bouajila. He look very much like the average man of the street in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia.
But we don’t see these browns peoples that much in the tv programs in these countries. If you watch the tv there, everybody seem turkish or italian, and women have blue eyes. (The upper society look like that but it’s not the typical Maghrebian).

He look more arabian than southern european
But yes i can see the horn features
E1b1b1
still i wouldn't call him black

little bit of a strech don't you think...
P.s
When i think on black face
I think on shakil oneel


not this actor face

[Progon]

I don't think Maghrebis look like Ethiopians at all.