Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Ancient DNA: south-western Iberian Middle Neolithic population at the Bom Santo Cave

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-03-11
    Posts
    246
    Points
    9,303
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,303, Level: 28
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 47
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    Ancient DNA: south-western Iberian Middle Neolithic population at the Bom Santo Cave

    Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

    The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

    Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1


    Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...18442X16300038
    Last edited by Angela; 18-10-16 at 15:50. Reason: To activate link

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

    The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

    Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1


    Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...18442X16300038
    Hey believe it or not...i was with David ( D. gonçalves ) sunday afternoon.

  3. #3
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    682,168
    Level
    100
    Points: 682,168, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

    The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

    Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1


    Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1
    Do you have access to the article and did the authors mention that the above-mentioned haplogroups came from locals vs migrants? Or is it your own assumption?

    Personally, I'd say that U5b, HV0, H1 and H10a are Mesolithic Iberian lineages, while J, K1a2a1, T2b came with Neolithic farmers. I am very surprised to find U5a1, which is a lineage of Mesolithic eastern and northern Europeans that is extremely rare in Portugal today.

    And if the authors really hesitate between R8a1a3 and H1 in Portugal, maybe they aren't all that professional. R8a is a lineage found in eastern India, which has never been found in western Europe to my knowledge.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

    The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

    Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1


    Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...18442X16300038
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Do you have access to the article and did the authors mention that the above-mentioned haplogroups came from locals vs migrants? Or is it your own assumption?

    Personally, I'd say that U5b, HV0, H1 and H10a are Mesolithic Iberian lineages, while J, K1a2a1, T2b came with Neolithic farmers. I am very surprised to find U5a1, which is a lineage of Mesolithic eastern and northern Europeans that is extremely rare in Portugal today.

    And if the authors really hesitate between R8a1a3 and H1 in Portugal, maybe they aren't all that professional. R8a is a lineage found in eastern India, which has never been found in western Europe to my knowledge.

    Now. Where does H10a comes from?
    How close is to h10e only found in a corded ware women in eulau germany a 1000 years later.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-02-10
    Posts
    141
    Points
    10,182
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,182, Level: 30
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 368
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c1

    Ethnic group
    Appalachian American
    Country: USA - West Virginia



    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml

    • H10: found throughout Europe / found in Neolithic Germany and Portugal
      • H10a
      • H10b
      • H10c
      • H10d
      • H10e
      • H10f
      • H10g
      • H10h

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

    The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

    Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1


    Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...18442X16300038
    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml

    • H10: found throughout Europe / found in Neolithic Germany and Portugal
      • H10a
      • H10b
      • H10c
      • H10d
      • H10e
      • H10f
      • H10g
      • H10h
    Oh yes? Where?
    As far as ancestral journeys, and besides all her bias, I dont think she lies, h10e only is found in portugal 3600 bc in an incoming population to the place and 1000 year s later in a corded ware women in Eulau, place where BB exchanged women with CWC.

    That is the facts. What is your version.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-03-11
    Posts
    246
    Points
    9,303
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,303, Level: 28
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 47
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Do you have access to the article and did the authors mention that the above-mentioned haplogroups came from locals vs migrants? Or is it your own assumption?

    Personally, I'd say that U5b, HV0, H1 and H10a are Mesolithic Iberian lineages, while J, K1a2a1, T2b came with Neolithic farmers. I am very surprised to find U5a1, which is a lineage of Mesolithic eastern and northern Europeans that is extremely rare in Portugal today.

    And if the authors really hesitate between R8a1a3 and H1 in Portugal, maybe they aren't all that professional. R8a is a lineage found in eastern India, which has never been found in western Europe to my knowledge.
    Yes, they analysed the Sr isotopes and the samples was classified as "locals" or "migrants".

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    29-01-14
    Posts
    156
    Points
    4,932
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,932, Level: 20
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 118
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    I5a

    Ethnic group
    Finnish
    Country: Finland



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Yes, they analysed the Sr isotopes and the samples was classified as "locals" or "migrants".
    I do not think that "migrants" came from very far. I would presume that all were from the Iberian Peninsula but some were more mobile than others.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

    The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

    Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1


    Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...18442X16300038
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I do not think that "migrants" came from very far. I would presume that all were from the Iberian Peninsula but some were more mobile than others.
    Kriistina.... That is what i am emailing david about. Last Sunday he told me something about doubts he had.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    And Remarkably, what nobody is commenting, is the fact that one of the individuals is actually mtdna H10e. So, we have a H10e woman by 3700bc at the heart, the epicenter, of where the earliest Bell beaker is found. Zambujal and leceia is just miles way.

    Then we only have another individual with it which is at Eulau, germany, near the place where Bell beakers exchange women with CWC in a 2600bc Women.

    And nobody is even commenting it. Its strange. A rare H10e found in Yamnaya and later in Germany CWC would be the place of 1000 comments. Strange.

  11. #11
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,824
    Points
    249,402
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,402, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    The paper is behind a pay wall. However, I found the pre-print or draft version of it. There's absolutely no indication in the text that any kind of cultural change took place at this site with "migrants" coming from abroad. The migrants are just people from slightly different areas. They speculate there was bride exchange going on.

    The ancient dna is very fragmentary, which is why there's such poor resolution. You can find the results on page 30 of the draft.

    http://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/710...S-15-00013.pdf


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The paper is behind a pay wall. However, I found the pre-print or draft version of it. There's absolutely no indication in the text that any kind of cultural change took place at this site with "migrants" coming from abroad. The migrants are just people from slightly different areas. They speculate there was bride exchange going on.

    The ancient dna is very fragmentary, which is why there's such poor resolution. You can find the results on page 30 of the draft.

    http://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/710...S-15-00013.pdf

    Angela,
    Right. But values fro 87Sr/86Sr values seem too high, even for Alentejo.
    And, above all two of the sheeps have it 0.7122 and 0.7134 --well, dont know where in portugal those values can be found, but I know that those are values common in north Africa!
    http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/c...EW&classic=YES

  13. #13
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    682,168
    Level
    100
    Points: 682,168, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    And Remarkably, what nobody is commenting, is the fact that one of the individuals is actually mtdna H10e. So, we have a H10e woman by 3700bc at the heart, the epicenter, of where the earliest Bell beaker is found. Zambujal and leceia is just miles way.

    Then we only have another individual with it which is at Eulau, germany, near the place where Bell beakers exchange women with CWC in a 2600bc Women.

    And nobody is even commenting it. Its strange. A rare H10e found in Yamnaya and later in Germany CWC would be the place of 1000 comments. Strange.
    I consider H10 as Mesolithic European, as it is found throughout Europe today, but is virtually absent in the Middle East. So it is not that surprising to find it Neolithic Portugal.

  14. #14
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Angela,
    Right. But values fro 87Sr/86Sr values seem too high, even for Alentejo.
    And, above all two of the sheeps have it 0.7122 and 0.7134 --well, dont know where in portugal those values can be found, but I know that those are values common in north Africa!
    http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/c...EW&classic=YES
    In the digest communicated by Angela they seem thinkings these values could be found in Portugal, in some places North or East, not so far. If I red well.
    They seem considering the mt DNA (not too well defined) as very diverse for the time and place. I don't know but it's true mt-H doesn't appear so dominant here compared to other places of Portugal; but the sample is still little.

  15. #15
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-08-18
    Posts
    1
    Points
    310
    Level
    3
    Points: 310, Level: 3
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 40
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    This is an old thread but it’s been hard finding sources for R8a1a3. I also have H1 / H1a no clade. I match with corded ware etc too but I assumed that was later on or from later admixture. Now my head hurts

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •