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Before making claims like this, look into where the Oleni Ostrov burials are situated a little more than not at all. Looks pretty close to the Baltics to me:Originally Posted by Fire Haired14
Capture.JPG
It also looks like a good place of origin for some of the excess hunter-gatherer seen in outlying groups like the Sami, Estonians or Finns.
People with Baltic Hunter Gatherer genomes said they're WHG. Before that I thought they'd be EHG admixed as well.
I realize his admixture test used by Maciamo to make his Steppe ancestry map is inconsistent with academic results. I made the statement I did because you've shown what is in my opinion unjustified distrust of him in general not in this test in particular.
Sorry I should have worded my post better. I know you agree there's Corded Ware ancestry in the Baltic and Finland(and Scandinavia because 80% isn't traditionally Nordic territory). I was arguing against your opinion local hunter gatherer ancestry might be significantly inflating Steppe ancestry percentages there.
It is not just EHG, look at this, in the Murmansk area
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-3, 57-1]
3500 BP
U4a1 Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-1, 72-11]
3500 BP
U5a Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-9, 72-10, 72-14, 78-8]
3500 BP
U5a1 Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-4]
3500 BP
T* Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-2, 49-4, 57-3, 72-2, 72-7, 72-12]
3500 BP
C* Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-5, 72-6]
3500 BP
C5 Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-6, 72-13, 72-15]
3500 BP
D* Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-5, 72-3]
3500 BP
Z1a Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
Russia Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-1]
3500 BP
Z1a Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013
this is Siberian mtDNA, probably bringing some ANE along
No it doesn't make sense because the Basque R1b-M153 is only 2800 years old and has a TMRCA of 2500 years. Most Basques belong to the subclade just under that, with a TMRCA of 2100 years. This means that the Basque R1b is a very recent phenomenon starting in Roman times. But who knows, R1b might have continued to expand little by little each generations among the Basques for over 1000 years before reaching today's frequencies. I now believe that the Basque only got their R1b very gradually over the last 2500 years and that it has nothing to do with Bronze Age PIE invasions. That has the benefit to explain why they kept speaking Basque. I don't know why R1b increased gradually. Maybe increased fertility compared to the native male lineages (I2-M26 + G2a ?), or a noble lineage of some sort. It was probably a combination of factors. Anywau, if R1b entered the Basque gene pool from, say, neighbouring Aquitaine or Castille c. 500 BCE or even 100 BCE, it could have been autosomally low in Yamna ancestry (say 15-20%). After diluting it slowly over 1000 to 2000 more years with relatively pure Basque women, there would be very little Yamna left, surely under 5%. If Haak et al. are right and the Basque have 27% of Yamna, then it becomes much harder to explain with such a young TMRCA for their R1b, especially that Haak found 5% less Yamna among other Spaniards (22%). Spanish branches of DF27 are between 3500 and 4400 years old, so Late Bronze Age, and match the arrival of foreign Bronze Age cultures like El Argar. So there is no doubt that R1b was in many parts of Spain long before it spread among the Basques.
It's good that you mention India. Indian Brahmins have at most 15-20% of Steppe DNA. In fact, since they descend from Sintashta rather than Yamna, their Steppe DNA should be higher in EHG than CHG. Using Dodecad K12, they have about 18% of East European + West European + Mediterranean, but the latter also includes non-IE Neolithic ancestry. Using K12b, they have only 5% of Atlantic_Med + North European, but that doesn't include the Gedrosian that came with the IE. So depending on the calculator, we get somewhere between 7 and 18% of Steppe admixture. Unfortunately neither the Haak paper nor the Steppe K10 data have any Indian sample. But the Indo-Aryans invaded India from 1800 BCE, almost exactly at the same time as IE invaded Iberia with El Argar. And we get a similar percentage of Steppe admixture (10-20%) both in Spaniards and upper-caste Indians. But it took another 1500 years before R1b-M153 started spreading among the Basques, so a considerably lower Steppe admixture is to be expected.
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Basque have more than 5% Yamnaya. PCA and stat comparison(what Haak did) analysis always get about 25-30% for Basque. In analysis I've seen Basque are similar to Southern French and what makes them different from Spanish is a lack of post-Neolithic West Asian and North African ancestry.
The error lies in assuming that the Baltic populations are the result of a simple coalescence of Neolithic Corded Ware and Mesolithic elements. We already know that North-Eastern Europe received substantial input from further east by way of Russia, since N1c is the dominant paternal marker in all North-Eastern populations barring Belarusians. The preponderance of this marker transcends linguistic and national affiliation.
In Baltics proper there are layers
A) Meso WHGs
B) Battle Axe (non BS IEs, yet R1a)
C) Balts (BS IEs)
D) Baltic Finns (emerged on Fatyanovo substrate)
The B-C-D are all rich in direct Yamna (or Sredny Stog) ancestry.
YES. What I don’t get it is why every time I raise those options I get immediately eviscerated by ten guys (especially at eurogenes!).
Maybe you Angela can enlighten me a little bit. If Karelia was EHG (and already R1a). If there is SHG which is a mix of EHG and WHG, if apparently there is even EHG and SHG in the Balkans 7000bc… why in hell people insistently talk about a bunch of guys that show up near the freaking urals, as a uber event in Europes ancestry?
Also how do we know that CWC = massive Yamnya migration (sort of) if the region where they thrived might have been loaded up with EHG and even guys that were R1a?
Baltic Finns emerged in to Fatyanovo from the East or South East, there is the problem for many here.
There is a very easy explanation to the discrepancy in percentages. Haak et al. are only using 3 populations (EEF, WHG, Yamna), while Eurogenes uses 10 populations. Inevitably the breakdown will be more detailed with 10 populations and some DNA that was classified as Yamna in Haak may end up being Hindu Kush or other admixtures (e.g. Siberian for the Finns and Sami). The Basques, for example, have as much Hindu Kush as Yamna/Steppe in the Steppe K10. Some individuals have 5% of Hindu Kush and 0% of Steppe.
I also don't think that Haak et al. are less biased or more professional than David from Eurogenes. After all, Wolfgang Haak and Johannes Kraus recently proposed that ludicrous theory that Indo-European languages spread both with Anatolian Neolithic farmers and with Bronze Age Steppe invaders, as if they were unable to let go of their fetish Neolithic theory that contradicts all genetic and linguistic evidence, not to mention common sense and logic. I wonder how they haven't got fired from their university yet. Why would they get paid to come up with theories that spit in the face of scientific evidence?
The area was settled by Uralic peoples in the Bronze Age that developed to Finns, Karelians, Lapps, Estonians, Livonians... and by sure they carried a lot of ANE / EHG DNA, so Yamnaya is not the unique possible answer for such situation; in fact the Lappland case is a red alarm as to don't take all red colour as Yamnayan...
"What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory
"The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich
Of course Armenians and Azeris are different from the their CHG ~ Calcholithic_Iran ancestors, but even accepting that such nations have lost half of their primitive DNA the share with Yamnayans might be more (if we accept that Yamnayans were 50% C_Iran then Armenians might have at least a 25% of Yamnayan DNA... and even more as they are IE spaking so that they must have received some genetic "Yamnayan" influx)
I think a better way to frame it would be that WHG, SHG & EHG are Mesolithic specimens with differing levels of affinity to the Siberians from Afontova Gora on a genetic backbone best represented by the Epipaleolithic Villabruna hunters from Italy. Looking at the specimens individually, it is apparent that they are far from uniform for their age. I have mentioned before that, for example, the Stora Förvar 11 individual already has a distinct affinity to the Caucasus, in all likelihood a relic of his Balkanic provenance. Subtleties like these are lost if you try to fit everything into a small number of categories.
Last edited by MarkoZ; 19-10-16 at 14:36.
The main difference between Haal et al. 2015 and Eurogenes is that the former is a peer-reviewed study, the latter no. We always forget that. At least it would be useful a Yamna admixture map with all the Haak et al percentages of 29 European populations.
Which proofs do you have for this statement about El Argar culture?
@all, for the Basque issue it is naive to go on without knowing the primary sources in each paper: they were got from rural Basques with Basque surnames or they included all actual Basques? (about a 50% with a recent migratory history and with usual Spanish surnames).
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maqueto
For the case of the "non-Yamnayan EHG" DNA, the best solution would be to take into account only the Calcho_Iran and then double such percent (the other half of EHG origin) to know the real Yamnayan DNA.
I have made a map based on the very scarce data from Haak et al. (2015). There was so little data that I had to lump Scandinavians together, and I did the same for Croats, Serbs, Bosnians and Slovenes. Anyway the map cannot be anywhere near accurate without data for all countries and regions.
It doesn't look that different from Eurogenes Steppe K10, except that Haak's estimate are twice higher because they use only 3 populations instead of 10. With no reliable regional data for large countries and so many unsampled countries, it's hard to get a clear picture. Both peak in northern and eastern Europe. The main difference is that Haak reports more Yamna in the Basques and comparatively less in South Italians and Albanians.
Fire Haired was talking about these two cultures: Kunda, Narva:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunda_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva_culture
They were 100% WHG according to soon-to-be-published data.
This explains where "actual WHG" admixture in Balts came from.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201....full.pdf+html
Our results provide new links between modern and ancient inhabitants of Eurasia. Siberians share 38% of ancestry with descendants of the 45,000-year-old Ust-Ishim people, who were previously believed to have no modern-day descendants. Western Siberians trace 57% of their ancestry to the Ancient North Eurasians, represented by the 24,000-year-old Siberian Malta boy. In addition, Siberians admixtures are present in lineages represented by Eastern European hunter-gatherers from Samara, Karelia, Hungary and Sweden (from 8,000-6,600 years ago), as well as Yamnaya culture people (5,300-4,700 years ago) and modern-day northeastern Europeans. These results provide new evidence of ancient gene flow from Siberia into Europe.
8 ka HG DNA in Europe is already diluted
if you want pure WHG, look at Bichon
Kunda and Narva cultures = no any R1a and no any EHG, 100% WHG and their Y-DNA was haplogroup I.so how do we know that CWC = massive Yamnya migration (sort of) if the region where they thrived might have been loaded up with EHG and even guys that were R1a?
Today areas formerly occupied by Kunda and Narva cultures are dominated by R1a and N1c haplogroups.
Sorry and thanks. I did not see it.I have made a map based on the very scarce data from Haak et al. (2015). There was so little data that I had to lump Scandinavians together, and I did the same for Croats, Serbs, Bosnians and Slovenes. Anyway the map cannot be anywhere near accurate without data for all countries and regions.
Undoubtedly linked to the migration of mtDNA U5b and V from Southwest Europe during the Mesolithic.
You fail to understand that Hindu Kush auDNA in the Basques IS from the Yamnaya Horizon. HinduKush is correlated to the Gedrosia and those early PIE people who invaded Yamnaya from the south and Indo-Europized it were full of Gedrosia/Hindu Kush.
Maybe 'Anatolian Neolithic farmers Model' is wrong, but the 'Armenian Model' combined with the 'Yamnaya Model' makes a lot more sense and in agreement with archeologic and genetic evidence.
Last edited by Goga; 19-10-16 at 15:34.
Well, even that way wouldn't be reliable: what prevents that Calcho_Iran DNA stopped in Samara leaving the best unoccupied (forest-steppe and forest)?
If you compare this :
to this :
and these :
what can we conclude ?
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