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Thread: New map of Yamna admixture (Eurogenes Steppe K10)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's good that you mention India. Indian Brahmins have at most 15-20% of Steppe DNA. In fact, since they descend from Sintashta rather than Yamna, their Steppe DNA should be higher in EHG than CHG.
    I don't know where you got your info from, but Indo-Aryans that invaded India were from BMAC and NOT from the Steppes at all. IMO: BMAC was mostly CHG-GEDROSIA, belonged to R2a, R1a-Z93, J2a, G2a etc. folks..



    http://balkhandshambhala.blogspot.nl...on1600-bc.html



    Or do you think that Indo-Aryans had AIRPLANES and other flying machines and FLEW directly from the Steppes into India, by skipping the SouthCentral Asia / BMAC? There is no LOGOS in your story..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Fire Haired was talking about these two cultures: Kunda, Narva:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunda_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva_culture

    They were 100% WHG according to soon-to-be-published data.

    This explains where "actual WHG" admixture in Balts came from.
    I would not rush things. WHG were even further to East as well and something tells me most modern WHG in Balts arrived together with Balts from somewhere Dnieper, already R1a-ized.
    Like we discuss when whg was picked by euro farmers, on way or on spot or both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Kunda and Narva cultures = no any R1a and no any EHG, 100% WHG and their Y-DNA was haplogroup I.

    Today areas formerly occupied by Kunda and Narva cultures are dominated by R1a and N1c haplogroups.
    well, pré-WHG I guess, haplo I*

    WHG is Villabruna haplo I2 and mtDNA U5b

    so, Narva as well ?

    when was Kunda replaced by EHG then ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Kunda and Narva cultures = no any R1a and no any EHG, 100% WHG and their Y-DNA was haplogroup I.

    Today areas formerly occupied by Kunda and Narva cultures are dominated by R1a and N1c haplogroups.
    This is really interesting, Tomenable! Does that mean that N1c arrived to present Lithuanian territory with CWC, not Kunda, as previously believed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    This is really interesting, Tomenable! Does that mean that N1c arrived to present Lithuanian territory with CWC, not Kunda, as previously believed?
    This is what I wrote on the new version of the N1c page last year already. However, the Narva culture had pottery, so it's not impossible that N1c had already reached the Baltic by that time, even if Narva people still predominantly belonged to Y-haplogroup I.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You fail to understand that Hindu Kush auDNA in the Basques IS from the Yamnaya Horizon. HinduKush is correlated to the Gedrosia and those early PIE people who invaded Yamnaya from the south and Indo-Europized it were full of Gedrosia/Hindu Kush.

    Maybe 'Anatolian Neolithic farmers Model' is wrong, but the 'Armenian Model' combined with the 'Yamnaya Model' makes a lot more sense and in agreement with archeologic and genetic evidence.
    I know that Hindu Kush is from PIE Steppe people too. But the map I made was only for the 'Steppe' component, which I think correlates more with the EHG admixture of Proto-Indo-Europeans, while the Hindu Kush correlates more with their CHG or Gedrosia admixture. I explained above that Eurogenes's Yamna admixture was about half lower than Haak's, because the Steppe K10 calculator has 10 populations instead of 3, and a lot of Haak's Yamna ended up being Hindu Kush or Siberian in Eurogenes. So Haak's Yamna admixture is a composite of the various ancestries that make up Yamna (EHG, ANE, CHG), while Eurogenes split them apart.

    One question that hasn't been clearly answered yet is why do Western Europeans have so much more Hindu Kush or Gedrosian than Northeast Europeans? Did it only come with R1b PIE? J2 people could also have brought some when they migrated from West Asia to Greece and Italy, but ironically Greece and Italy have less Gedrosia than Western Europe, and especially the British Isles.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I don't know where you got your info from, but Indo-Aryans that invaded India were from BMAC and NOT from the Steppes at all. IMO: BMAC was mostly CHG-GEDROSIA, belonged to R2a, R1a-Z93, J2a, G2a etc. folks..

    Or do you think that Indo-Aryans had AIRPLANES and other flying machines and FLEW directly from the Steppes into India, by skipping the SouthCentral Asia / BMAC? There is no LOGOS in your story..
    Of course they came from the BMAC, but a few centuries earlier they came from Sintashta. That's proven. R1a-Z93* was found in EBA Russia. Deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Of course they came from the BMAC, but a few centuries earlier they came from Sintashta. That's proven. R1a-Z93* was found in EBA Russia. Deal with it.
    Huh? Do you have any evidence that Sintashta folks migrated into BMAC? BMAC culture is actually OLDER than and pre-date Sintashta, like Maykop is older than and pre-date Yamnaya. Actually, they have found BMAC influences in the Andronovo Horizon.

    BMAC = 2300 BCE , AT LEAST
    Sintashta = 2100 BCE


    They found also J1 in pre-Neolithic Karelia, that doesn't mean that J1 is from Finland..


    That R1a-Z93* in EBA Russia was an invader from the Iranian Plateau who brought Gedrosia auDNA into the Steppes. How do you think there is so much Gedrosia auDNA in the ancient Steppe samples? Exactly, that R1a-Z93* was NATIVe to the Iranian Plateau and therefore to the BMAC culture. Has NOTHIGN to do with the Steppes at the first place.

    + there is almost no ancient Y-DNA N & Q in Northern India (some of it is from late Turkic tribes), so there was no migration from the Steppes into the BMAC.


    You have to deal it.


    You said first that Indo-Iranians went directly to India from Sintashta by AIRPLANES. I truly don't know what your sources are. No LOGOS at all.


    Aryans that invaded India were from BMAC and NOT Sintashta/Steppes. FACT! BMAC was an Eastern Iranian culture full of Iranian Plateau auDNA! FACT! Aryans that invaded India from BMAC were mostly Iranian Plateau folks. CHECK!


    And it is in agreement with nowadays findings. Modern Iranian & Indian people have still a lot Iranian Plateau (Caucaso-Gedrosia) auDNA. FACT! This means that ancient Iranian (Aryan) and Indic people were mostly Caucaso-Gedrosia folks. They had NOTHIGN to do with Europe or EurAsian Steppes, it is YOU that have to deal with it
    Last edited by Goga; 19-10-16 at 17:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This is what I wrote on the new version of the N1c page last year already. However, the Narva culture had pottery, so it's not impossible that N1c had already reached the Baltic by that time, even if Narva people still predominantly belonged to Y-haplogroup I.
    Oh I am confused now... I know that one culture in the early neolithic in Lithuania did not have pottery and they were very much into rein deer hunting, it may be them who gave current Lithuanians our N1c ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This is what I wrote on the new version of the N1c page last year already. However, the Narva culture had pottery, so it's not impossible that N1c had already reached the Baltic by that time, even if Narva people still predominantly belonged to Y-haplogroup I.
    Have you added the N1c samples that were found by Chekunova et al in the Late Neolithic Serteya culture of Western Russia? They appear to be dated to roughly 2500-2000 B.C. .

    Source: https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed (p. 290)

    From the supplemental material:

    2.jpg

    RC-Dates:

    Capture.jpg

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This soon-to-be-publushed paper on East Baltic aDNA has ~80 samples spanning from Mesolithic to Iron Age.

    I only know snippets of information but supposedly they did not find any N1c until the end of the Bronze Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne
    Does that mean that N1c arrived to present Lithuanian territory with CWC, not Kunda, as previously believed?
    Nope, no any N1c in CWC. It looks like N1c arrived to present Lithuanian-Latvian-Estonian territory after CWC.

    But let's wait until the publication because these are "unconfirmed rumours".

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    when was Kunda replaced by EHG then ?
    It was never replaced by "pure EHG". Kunda-Narva WHG was replaced by CWC in Copper / Early Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This soon-to-be-publushed paper on East Baltic aDNA has ~80 samples spanning from Mesolithic to Iron Age.

    I only know snippets of information but supposedly they did not find any N1c until the end of the Bronze Age.



    Nope, no any N1c in CWC. It looks like N1c arrived to present Lithuanian-Latvian-Estonian territory after CWC.

    But let's wait until the publication because these are "unconfirmed rumours".
    Great news.


    It was never replaced by "pure EHG". Kunda-Narva WHG was replaced by CWC in Copper / Early Bronze Age.
    Rather coexisted for 700 years and were slowly assimilated.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This soon-to-be-publushed paper on East Baltic aDNA has ~80 samples spanning from Mesolithic to Iron Age.

    I only know snippets of information but supposedly they did not find any N1c until the end of the Bronze Age.



    Nope, no any N1c in CWC. It looks like N1c arrived to present Lithuanian-Latvian-Estonian territory after CWC.

    But let's wait until the publication because these are "unconfirmed rumours".



    It was never replaced by "pure EHG". Kunda-Narva WHG was replaced by CWC in Copper / Early Bronze Age.

    So the paper will confirm what I have posted all this time based on the present linguistic and genetic data.

    N1c was also connected to the fortified settlements and metallurgy appearing in to the region, hard pill to swallow for those spreading theories of Uralic hunter gatherers invading armed with bone arrows and riding reindeer.

    I still expect Tacitus quotes about Fenni from time to time, they still carry entertainment value.

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    I have made a map of the Hindu Kush admixture. Oddly enough the Basque have more of it than other North Spanish and South French people.




    The Hindu Kush admixture is very similar to the Gedrosian admixture, but very strangely exhibits the opposite gradient in Italy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have made a map of the Hindu Kush admixture. Oddly enough the Basque have more of it than other North Spanish and South French people.




    The Hindu Kush admixture is very similar to the Gedrosian admixture, but very strangely exhibits the opposite gradient in Italy.


    Gedrosian was carried by Celts?

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    7 out of 7 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is a very easy explanation to the discrepancy in percentages. Haak et al. are only using 3 populations (EEF, WHG, Yamna), while Eurogenes uses 10 populations. Inevitably the breakdown will be more detailed with 10 populations and some DNA that was classified as Yamna in Haak may end up being Hindu Kush or other admixtures (e.g. Siberian for the Finns and Sami). The Basques, for example, have as much Hindu Kush as Yamna/Steppe in the Steppe K10. Some individuals have 5% of Hindu Kush and 0% of Steppe.

    I also don't think that Haak et al. are less biased or more professional than David from Eurogenes. After all, Wolfgang Haak and Johannes Kraus recently proposed that ludicrous theory that Indo-European languages spread both with Anatolian Neolithic farmers and with Bronze Age Steppe invaders, as if they were unable to let go of their fetish Neolithic theory that contradicts all genetic and linguistic evidence, not to mention common sense and logic. I wonder how they haven't got fired from their university yet. Why would they get paid to come up with theories that spit in the face of scientific evidence?
    This "calculator" was an experiment, according to its own creator, designed to look at specific issues. Steppe does not equal Yamnaya here. Yamnaya included a lot of the ancestry that was broken out in the calculator, including Hindu Kush, which is the Gedrosia element of Yamnaya. It's also totally outdated in other ways as it was created before the release of the most recent ancient genomes. It just cannot be used.

    The Haak et al data and genome analysis, which hasn't been challenged by anyone, to my knowledge, is based on actual complete Yamnaya genomes. That paper was a joint effort of the Reich Lab as well as the Haak people, the two premier genetics labs in the world; they're not going to falsify data. Plus, as I said, no one has challenged it. Indeed the results have been replicated by other people.

    You may disagree with Krause's analysis of the data in terms of proposing a modified theory of IE expansions, and you may agree with that of Anthony. That doesn't mean that the Krause hypothesis is contrary to science. They are merely interpreting the data in a different way. They may be right or they may be wrong. That poster, which is all that the speculation is based upon, may be a work in progress. Or, they may have already analyzed ancient dna data to which we're not privy. We just don't know yet.

    As to the creator of this calculator, I'll just say that you don't know whom you're dealing with...


    .


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    I knew N1c couldn't be a Baltic hunter gatherer. N1c, Siberian admixture, and Uralic languages in Northeast Europe all probably have the same post-CWC source. Then again its arrival might be different for different regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But the map I made was only for the 'Steppe' component,
    Then you should rename it into the 'map of Steppe admixture'. Since it doesn't correspondent well with the 'Yamnaya admixture'. At this moment your map is MISLEADING and full of contradictions. Like now according to your map there is more Yamnaya admixture in Finno-Ugric/Saami people than European Indo-Europeans. Like you said Yamnaya Admixture is more than Steppe Admixture.

    Steppe admixture in NorthEastern Europe existed even before the arrival of late second stage Yamnaya PIE.
    So, a lot Steppe ancestry in NorthEastern Europe has nothing to do with second stage Proto-Indo-European speakers from Yamnaya.

    Yamnaya = Steppe + NorthWest Asia.


    So, you should rename your map into 'map of Steppe admixture' or change your percentages about the Yamnaya ancestry.

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    Absolutely crazy, no way to deal with it, if I have understood well Gedrosia was the actual Chalco_Iran component... but it is near to absent in the steppe, but the worst is to check how the Yamnayan component in the Baltic countries is high there but devoid of Gedrosian (so it came there Yamnayans pure-EHG??). I usualy see admixture calculations with low confidence but such data is providing a mad situation, something must go wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I knew N1c couldn't be a Baltic hunter gatherer. N1c, Siberian admixture, and Uralic languages in Northeast Europe all probably have the same post-CWC source. Then again its arrival might be different for different regions.
    I started to think that to, before I realized that this map is WRONG on many levels. After seeing his map I started to believe that Saami have more Corded Ware admixture than Norwegians, lol. But I was mislead by a wrong map. It was stupid of me, not to make additional examination of data.

    So, hold on a minute. The map of Maciamo doesn't hold any ground and is at least misleading. I don't think Maciamo tried to mislead us on purpose. He is still making mistakes by using sources from people with hidden twisted agenda.


    His map is not about Yamnaya but the Steppes. And there IS a correlation between the Steppes admixture AND Y-DNA hg. like N1c1 & Q.
    Last edited by Goga; 19-10-16 at 20:18.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    N1c in Finno-Ugrians correlates with Siberian & East Asian rather than Steppe admixtures.

    But Lithuanians despite having a lot of N1c have not much of N1c-related autosomal DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    Gedrosian was carried by Celts?
    and by gypsies!
    ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Absolutely crazy, no way to deal with it, if I have understood well Gedrosia was the actual Chalco_Iran component... but it is near to absent in the steppe.
    Very simple. Modern European Steppe folks (like Russians) have NOTHING to do with the ancient Iranic Central Asian Steppe folks. Only the ancient Indo-Iranized Steppes folks were full of Gedrosia. While modern Eastern Europeans don't have that admixture, sicne Eastern Europeans have nothing in common with the ancient Indo-Iranized Steppes folks. The only common thing between ancient Indo-Iranized tribes and modern day Eastern Europeans is the Steppes admixture.

    Those ancient Indo-Iranized Steppes folks are now Turkified and speak Turkic language as their native language and do consider themselves as Turks/Tatars.


    With other words. Eastern Europeans (Balto-Slavs) are NOT directly related to Indo-Iranized cultures in the Steppes. And those ancient Indo-Iranized folks of the Steppes are now native Turkic/Tatar people of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan.





    Those Shintashta/Androno Steppes folks who were once Indo-IRANIZED by people (Aryans) from the Iranian Plateau were later Turkified and those Indo-Iranized Steppe cultures became Tatars/Turks.
    Last edited by Goga; 19-10-16 at 20:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    N1c in Finno-Ugrians correlates with Siberian & East Asian rather than Steppe admixtures.

    But Lithuanians despite having a lot of N1c have not much of N1c-related autosomal DNA.
    Lithuanians are like Estonians. And Estonians are Finno-Ugric people. That's why I believe that N1c is correlated to the Steppes admixture.

    Many people say that the Baltic countries are populated by NATIVE Steppes folks, and they are only Indo-Europized people by language and not genetically. So, actually they don't have much of the Yamnaya admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Lithuanians are like Estonians. And Estonians are Finno-Ugric people. That's why I believe that N1c is correlated to the Steppes admixture.

    Many people say that the Baltic countries are populated by NATIVE Steppes folks, and they are only Indo-Europized people by language and not genetically. So, actually they don't have much of the Yamnaya admixture.
    Goga, relax, you and the rest of Kurds can be the purest Arians in you want so.
    I have never met a real Arian, but I know some real Finno-Ugric people, they are nice, so I don't mind being like Estonian, or like Steppe folk and I am very proud of having more hunter gather heritage than the rest of the Europeans.

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